I am one of those dewy eyed idealists who would like to see this country as open as I believed it was from the movies of my youth. The actual fact is that this country has never been as open as we idealists believed it to be. In the 17th and 18th century many (if not most) people came to this country as
Old South End Broadway
Yet, there is nothing rational about your poll. None of your suggested answers satisfies my point of view.
And for the record, none of your previous polls have satisfied what I believe in. If it makes you feel good, that's great, but really you should try to be more objective. All of your polls implement a certain amount of spin. It's very obvious.
I have to agree with Junta - the poll answer choises on almost all the polls are pretty biased & limited = this poll seems to slant in only one direction. (and the font is sooooooo tiny I can barely read it.)
theyre too friggin small and YES, I do know how to use my 'view' to enlarge them, but screw it, they generally dont interest me enough to go thru the hoops to do that...
But Junta, rather than whining about the choices you're given, why not elaborate about your opinion? Old South doesnt give you a choice you want? So what - use the forum to comment on your side of things - you cant possibly think the border situation is just fine as it is, so what's your 2 cents worth?
Good Grief, ban someone from the site because you dont like their posts?? Get over yourself!!
Just to satisfy them. This would first require being able to read other peoples' minds.
The poll includes a number, yet not all, of topics at play in the immigration situation on the ground today.
That the borders of our country be made as secure as possible? I can't believe there is still debate in Congress about this. Also that the wall they were supposed to build isn't done. I heard on CNN that out of about 700 miles to be built - there are just over 2 miles completed.
That we keep out those people who undercut our lowest paid workers? Also a current topic. The phrase that shocked me last year was that these people do 'jobs nobody else wants'. Gee, I suppose that's why all the immigrants over the years came to America - to have a limited future? I think they come here with the idea that America is the land of opportunity.
That we keep out those who would change our
If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.
I should have taken the opportunity to read some of your posts before giving
Kateb, below is a link to an article (I also saw it in the Toledo Blade) that shows why it may be impossible to close our borders. We have problems with our neighbor to the north, and businesses in our own country. Remember when Khrushev made the comment
I hope the President is right on this, but I think it might be a case of
What do ya mean we can't read other people's minds? (I'm going to get my Magic 8 Ball...................)
I heard on wspd that fining illegals $5,000 won't do a thing - all they'll do is be taken advantage of by credit card companies (one that preys on people with horrible or no credit) to pay the fines, or find it through some illegal means. What illegal working less than normal pay has that kind of money? What happens if they can't or won't pay? Jail or deportation? How long before the illegals with these long term visas start demanding better wages & more rights? I also heard on wspd several months ago, that our country already spends about 65 billion dollars a year in medical care for illegals as it is.
I also question the effectiveness of border patrol when they imprisoned 2 border patrol agents for 12 years each for doing their job against a repeat drug dealer illegal (who ran home to drug dealer mama, who's friends with somebody in Homeland Security.......as I heard it) .
This is an interesting report from the Customs and Border Patrol, http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32562.pdf. According to it there are over 10,000 agents to patrol 8,000 miles of inland and coastal borders.
I was listening to a talk done by an economist from Kentucky, and he mentioned that there are only three industrialized countries that are experiencing growth - Canada, Australia, and the US. And that it is due to immigration, not because we are producing lots of children. Many industrialized nations are experiencing population declines, and their economies are taking a hit as their population inverts. His message - invite in MORE people, the future of our economy depends on it! Interesting thought....
And I must admit, I'm perhaps a liberal who hasn't been mugged yet ;)
I do have a kind of sympathy with that. I think our government has done that with the
I was trying to figure out how much manpower would be needed for such work. Today, we had someone
"The cost of the war in U.S. fatalities has declined this year, but the cost in treasure continues to rise, from $48 billion in 2003 to $59 billion in 2004 to $81 billion in 2005 to an anticipated $94 billion in 2006, according to the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. The U.S. government is now spending nearly $10 billion a month in Iraq and Afghanistan, up from $8.2 billion a year ago, a new Congressional Research Service report found"
Found this in the Department of Education. Don
It may not seem fair to accept illegals who are educated & skilled (and with money) & not the poor, impoverished illegals - but that's how it is in many countries. Not sure what Canada's policy is currently - but back in 1969, you were graded on a point system to determine if you met citizenship requirements. Some criteria were education, marital status, etc. You could not get a job without the proper papers. I know this, because I lived in Toronto, Canada for several months in 1969, and couldn't get a job for my life, not even under the table. I'm sure many people did find work, but the people I was with didn't have any better luck than I did. I'm not sure, but from what I"m told by a Canadian pharmacist (recently) - it doesn't appear that illegals collect welfare or other benefits in Canada like they do in the USA. They probably get free health care - not sure, but I plan to ask next time I go. My point is, many (or most) countries in the world do not take kindly to illegals sneaking across the borders, and sure don't provide free care. I'm sure there are some countries that would just as soon as jail, deport or shoot you. Not so in our country - God forbid we are perceived as inhumane. And that's exactly what they'd be saying with the border/barracks idea southend. Personally, I think it's a good idea - as good as any I've heard so far. But our country wouoldn't permit it - they'd arrange health care, schooling & houseing for these sad souls.
Having said all that, I watched a documentary on one of the nightly news shows a year or so ago (20/20 type show) - very indepth, a reporter who was very much against illegals coming into our ocuntry accepted an offer to go to Mexico to see first hand the horrible conditions these people live in. It was an eye opener for him, and me. I understand the deplorable living conditions in Mexico, and my heart aches for these people. But I also understand we cannot save the world, and we need to be taking care of our own, first. There's a lot of people in a lot of countries living in horrible conditions - can't save them all. Our country has spent enormous sums of money trying. I'm of the opinion that enough is enough. Last I heard on a wspd news show was that over 90 percent of all murders & felonys in L.A. were committed or involved illegals. There are some cities & states in this country where illegals outnumber the US citizens.
Starling02, it may be a simplistic solution, but I am leaning toward this because the way we seem to do it now is
Secure Fence Act
Below are some links on this topic.
Some of what I
A plan to fence off a third of the U.S. border to stop illegal immigration from Mexico may harm migration routes used by animals including rare birds and jaguars, environmentalists and U.S. authorities warn.
Here's a question to toss into the fray - what about illegals who are caught committing crime over here? Do we spend tax money to put them thru the legal system, then support them with three hot's and a cot in our prison systems, or do we just deport them so they go completely unpunished and turn around and just sneak back again?
...column by Peggy Noonan offers some interesting ideas about 'what we should do.'
I personally believe that the illegal Mexican immigrant problem could be resolved by admitting the facts. Our country uses the illegal immigrants to harvest and produce our food and agricultural products. We furthermore use the illegal immigrants as a source of cheaper labor for many other industries. Then we play a double game with them and deny them citizenship and legal status. We either need them, or we do not.
We need to pass legislation guaranteeing no discrimination against illegal laborers entering our country to work to support their families. We need to provide them with proper paperwork and a path to citizenship. We furthermore need to tax their labor and fine any company or corporation which chooses to unfairly use their hard work and play tax games with the State and Federal Government. We need to allow them to receive what they pay into Social Security. We need to admit that the vast majority of Mexican workers are good people looking for employment and citizenship opportunities. The very reasons they are here can also be traced directly to our own unfair trade policies and corporate greed. The government (read here the people) could place a leveling tax upon any corporation which would attempt to use cheaper labor and not declare them. This tax would make it un-economical to employ any illegal labor. The vast majority of Mexican people I have known, have been very good citizens and contributors to America.
I read your post, Maggie, and found it tantalizing.
So we build our wall, and increase our manpower (not being chauvinistic) on the border to back that up. So what are the
You know, maybe I
CMantyla has a point. These
And how many border patrol agents will look the other way rather than risk going to prison for 12 years for doing his job?
... different two-pronged approach.
1. Make our borders as secure as humanly possible.
2. Create an easy path to citizenship for the illegals that are already here.
This path begins with going back where you came from and applying for legal entry and citizenship. . .
Nothing unambiguous here.
...perspective on what to do about the illegals who are already in the country...
I agree, the font is hard to read. But more importantly, I find it outrageous that he attempts to think that we are all so stupid. Perhaps we should create a poll to ban him from the site, and skew it so much in our favor that we can't lose.
Besides, as usual, nobody here cares if you have a slant as long as it's in the same direction as their own.
People complain about the polls but they're free to post their own that expands upon yours, or simply abstain.
The problem here is that about 80% of the active posters intersect in about 80% of their beliefs and if you happen to have less intersection in your own beliefs you're labeled as a troll or as being anti-community.
Not everyone here excepts everyone else to share their beliefs. But many of the ones that do feel that way are vocal enough that everyone knows it.
...to get used to some of the posters on this site. Junta tends to rub people the wrong way at first, and sometimes for longer...
However, like others on here, Junta (he?she?) can usually find something interesting and thought-provoking to say (type).
And not all of us have the wisdom you exhibit...You've obviously lived a while and have the benefit of experience that many of us appreciate - kind of a 'listen to your elders' perspective.
So don't let something as ridiculous as this latest from Junta get to you - it won't be the last time that someone doesn't understand, takes something the wrong way, or goes off on a bender about something you've written...
And I wouldn't call this a 'conservative' site any more than I'd call Toledo a 'conservative' town. It's true that most people are to the right of middle when it comes to fiscal matters and to the left of middle when it comes to social issues. Toledo - and Swampbubbles - is no different. It's just that sometimes it seems those who lean a bit more left than the majority feel a bit out of place with some of their positions.
I like your polls - keep them up...If I don't find my position in the options, I won't vote and will just make a comment.
First of all, let me apologize to you OldSouthEndBrdy. I have a bizarre sense of humor and thought it would be funny to create a ridiculous poll with ridiculous answers. Unfortunately, I forgot to put it in context. In no way was I trying to insult you or anything you believe in. As I stated above, your poll did not include an answer that satisfied my point of view, and in the ridiculous poll I created, I intentionally gave answers that would satisfy no one's point of view (as demonstrated by the fury my poll created). Apparently, I'm the only person who found it funny. So again, I apologize if I caused you any aggravation.
Regarding this immigration issue, this is one of the few issues I completely agree with President Bush on. I think there should be a two-fold approach to illegal immigration: (1) increase security at the border; and (2) create a path to citizenship for those already here. I think the recent immigration bill encompasses this.
First, we must do something to increase border security. Is building a giant wall the answer? Maybe, maybe not. In addition to that, we need to increase border patrols. The bottom line is we need to increase border patrols.
Second, and more controversial is creating a path to citizenship. People opposed to this action call it amnesty, but if you think about it, it's not really amnesty. They have to pay a $5000 fine for breaking the law. If they pay their taxes and pay the fine, I don't particularly see anything wrong with the law. I'd rather have illegals paying taxes and being productive members of our society than having them stay so secretive. This way, we can keep better track of them and they pay taxes. Just my thoughts on it.
This site has one up over all other local ones: it has polls.