A tale of two states . . .
Earlier this week Ohio did away with "Skill Games" that were popping up in taverns, private clubs and race tracks. The Attorney General claimed that gambling increased violence, prostitution and even drug use. Sadly, he was able to get rid of the games and keep the state-run (poorly paying) lottery as the only gaming in Ohio.
No Strippers dancing after midnight, no table dances or couch dances. No touching in strip clubs or you're off to jail! Ohio strip clubs will be going through a tough time. Once upon a time you could get fine cigars in strip clubs - I imagine those sales have fallen way off since the smoking ban.
Ah, the smoking ban. The venues that are following the law are seeing decreased sales by 20-30 even 40%. For the first time ever, private clubs are losing money because smokers have gone away. (They were immune under the smoking ban drafted by JFo.) So many have petitioned the government for assistance that the governor is moving towards granting private clubs an exemption from the law. Wait till the cold weather sets in . . . how bad will it get? Time will tell, but the situation will certainly worsen with harsh weather.
As a side effect, now that smoking has been banned, the populace is complaining about the noise coming from patios and sidewalks that hold smokers who used to smoke inside taverns and pubs.
Welcome to Michigan, a few minutes to the north. Bar patrons are welcomed to have a seat at a bar, get a beer, light up their favorite smoke and play keno - - yes Keno - - a gambling game requiring little if any skill. There's a game every 10 minutes or so - all day long. There 4 full-sized Vegas style casinos within a 30 minute drive - all but one permit smoking indoors.
How about adult venues? Strip clubs in Michigan operate with little if any governmental supervision. Couch dancing - no problem (I assume touching, groping and hand jobs are frowned upon). Cigars? Yes in Michigan smokers are welcomed.
Ah, smoking - in Michigan, smokers are allowed to smoke where ever the management of the facility that they are in permits smoking. How sensible - a business with money at risk in the venture actually gets to decide how to cater to their customer base. As far as noise - what noise? The smokers are inside, where they have been.
"Ohio - The Heart of it All" = Bullshit. The new motto should be "Ohio - Welcome to the No Fun State."
PS - Since I'm bitching about the absurd smoking ban again - I thought I'd mention that Ohio boarders Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia and Pennsylvania. NONE of those states has a smoking ban. This is reminiscent of the JFo ban that set Toledo as an island of misery in a sea of fun. Now the misery is state wide so we're told not to complain about it.
Today at work someone came up to me and lamented the new strip club laws. The same fellow was 100+% behind the smoking ban because he doesn't smoke and doesn't like smoke, especially next to him in a restaurant. Now that a special interest group had the government move against what I can only assume is his preferred vice (titty dancing), his panties are in a bunch.
I told him "tough shit". One doesn't get to selectively approve of the government usurping rights. Maybe now he understands - probably not.
I remember when all this shit started - - the seat belt law. At 6'5" and the odds of me flying through the windshield of my car and hurting anyone are damn near zero. It's not the state's business if I get killed as a result of my decision not to wear my seat belt. Screw them - I'm not wearing it (unless in my wife's convertible, when my odds of going air born increase significantly.) Momma didn't raise no dummy.
Ohio & Michigan, Sodom and Gomorrah?
The venues that are following the law are seeing decreased sales by 20-30 even 40%. For the first time ever, private clubs are losing money because smokers have gone away
Is this data available anywear?
Let's get the Native Americans to open a casino/stripbar/bar just over the Michigan line!
MikeyA
This country used to be the land of the free. I see that freedom slipping away.
Name the period when the citizens of the US were actually free. I can't find anything in the 20th century, and the 21st is getting more repressive with each new administration.
Form your own Indian Tribe...
Imagine you can stop paying taxes, allow smoking at your bar, get money from the Feds, stop dealing with State Governments, open up your own casino, fish anyhow you like, keep whatever bar hours you want. Not bad!
I'm certain all those places' revenues are off. The cause is debatable, what with a slumping economy and all, but the smoking ban can be said definitively not to have helped things. How much it is hurting is arguable, but it is unquestionably hurting business. When the Toledo smoking ban was introduced several years ago, the antismokers claimed that revenues would not be hurt because the 80% of the nonsmokers would start going out. That was a lie. It never happened. Or not enough to make up for the loss of the smokers. Go talk to bar owners, if you don't believe me.
Ohio is such an uptight, blue-nosed place to live in terms of its laws. But then the whole country is swinging that way. Once the tolerance of the American public was proverbial: "live and let live"(anon.); "Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one's own beliefs. Rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others."(JFK); and my favorite,
Ask any/every private club manager. Call them, I dare you. Ask the employees there or the membership. Ask every/any tavern owner - stop in and ask what the ban has done to their business. Every bartender knows because they see it firsthand. Call some at random. I dare you. All I post is the truth. Go ahead and try to disprove me. You won't be able to.
Big Jim
Sorry - this is out of sequence. It was intended to be a reply for the post asking for data.
... then I propose we use the term "water coldness". Since we're being slowly boiled alive like the proverbial frog, I see the coldness of the water slowly slipping away. The water used to be colder in the 20th Century. Etc.
The question is, when during the 21th Century do we actually achieve 100
"Name the period when the citizens of the US were actually free. I can't find anything in the 20th century, and the 21st is getting more repressive with each new administration."
MadJack let me tell you a story...
A Republican is President during a time of war. He is brought in under the banner of being a unifier and not a divider. During the war he suspended habeas corpus, allows the military to close down dissenting media outlets, and was the frequent victim of outlandish attacks from the media who felt the war had gone on too long and that through everything that was happening the President was overriding the Constitution.
It's a good story and completely true. The President was Abraham Lincoln.
History defines freedom on some very general guidelines. It's no surprise that our freedom is judged upon the same guidelines.
MikeyA
"OheilO-The Heartlessness Of It All"
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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!
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"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".
I don't doubt what you say. I just wondered if there was some data to back it up. You referenced a pretty specific number...
But of course, the drumbeats have started in Michigan for a smoker ban, which the illustrious communist Governor Grandmole has said she's 'chafing at the bit to sign into law' before she has to leave office. Never mind that , like OheilO, they're on the verge of a depression and total economical collapse -actually even a little worse than us-the nannys, rabid smoker-haters, and moralistic do-gooders against all sin are bound and determined to drive a stake in small business' heart there, too.
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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!
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"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".
"The Heat of It All"
I meet with Delaney and other tavern owners from time to time. Those who are following the ban are down 20+%, some are down 40%. I run a tavern/nightclub in the South end. Our sales went down over 20% when the state started enforcing the ban. We added a smoking patio and it helped, but our business has not yet completely recovered. For lack of adjacent space and/or availability to funds, most taverns are unable to add patios to accommodate their smokers. Those businesses are going through a very difficult time and there is no relief in sight.
Here's a link to a list of the complaints filed since the State started enforcing the ban. Over 16,000 complaints ! Many are against fraternal organizations. For all we know, most of these complaints were e-mailed in by militant anti-smokers in Boise, Idaho and Miami, Florida. There is no penalty for filing a false report.
http://dunes.cincinnati.com/data/smoking/
Every time a complaint is lodged, the State sends out a certified letter ($4.60 in postage), then notifies local authorities who perform an on-site inspection. If the inspector sees a violation in process, the business receives an official warning, again delivered by certified mail. The next time a violation is confirmed at that location, the business gets a $100 fine (by certified mail).
So far Ohio has spent over $160,000 in postage + who knows how many man-hours following-up and conducting inspections. I wouldn't be shocked if the administrative costs are in excess of $200,000. Also note that so far 59 businesses that have been fined $100. Not quite 6 grand in fines. 59 violations from 16,000+ complaints with processing costs in excess of $350,000.
What a bad situation.
I spend my fair share of time in many of the South End/Maumee bars and they seem quite packed to me.
There has been multiple times on Thursday and Friday nights that my friends and I can't get a table at BW3 or Dale's and we have to drive to other bars.
One or two good nights a week don't make up for five or six slow nights. It may look great when you are there, but the owner is probably tearing his hair out on the other days.
SensorG - I don't know what times you socialize, but there may be no difference at all in bar crowds during those hours.
Most taverns still attract good business for prime hours (5 pm through midnight) on prime socializing nights; Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Since the smoking ban, the crowds on those prime nights tend to disburse earlier than they used to. Taverns that used to have a couple dozen people socializing till closing time now have half that amount hanging around. Late night business through the week is even slower.
At the direction of the owner, Dales went no smoking a while ago. It's a very comfortable place with good, reasonably priced food and drinks. Bill, the owner, is a good fellow and respected businessman who was kind enough to assist me when we started fighting the JFo Smoking Ban. I'm still obliged to him for his help.
BW3's is off the hook, filling-up almost every night. Their ads on TV are great and people don't mind the prices. I tend to prefer local businesses over franchises, but its tough to argue with success.
Big Jim
Bars and clubs come and go...
How many "Kips" have there been ever the years, how about Bannana Joes or Prime Times? These places closed long before the smoking band.
Many place are just poorly run or their owner have drug problems (think Reynolds and Heatherdowns). With new BW3s popping up all over the place and packed all the time, the business gets pulled from somewhere.
Be it bad service, bad menu, poor management or an inability to maintain market share in the face of competition -- taverns, like other businesses, come and go all the time. I've been involved with the smoking issue for the last 7 years, ever since that jug-head Grossman imposed his illegal countywide smoking ban. I'm getting tired of debating it and would prefer not to go there at this time.
My point was that Ohio, with all its rules and regs, is making it difficult for people to do what they enjoy. By criminalizing smoking, social gaming in the form of skill games and table / couch dances in strip clubs; there are less entertainment options available for adults on Ohio.
I don't smoke anymore, but as recently as two years ago would smoke a full two packs a day - three on weekends. My doc advised I'm getting too old to smoke, so I put them down.
I've seen people bet on everything from Nascar to women's professional bowling. People gamble for recreation and they gamble a lot. I'd lay 6 to 5 that I gamble more than most and I think it sucks that the State of Ohio should get to maintain it's gaming monopoly, especially with the awful payout percentage offered by the lottery system.
I'm not big on strip clubs, but am pissed that adults aren't allowed to decide if they want to see dancers and/or have them rub up against them.
Ohio will soon be in a full-fledged recession. No wonder people are leaving the state.
Big Jim