Why does Toledo always fear change?
I was reading through The Blade today and saw this article, http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080316/NEWS16/803160..., in where Toledo citizens are actually COMPLAINING when an alternative to the current trash system is provided in which MONEY IS SAVED by using automated trucks. One concern I've heard is that trash will get loose and litter the streets, yet, that problem is already rampant on my street.
This says it all:"After the announcement last week of the pilot program for automated trash trucks, Toledoans began to list concerns and complaints. The bottom line for many: We like it the way it is."
"We like it the way it is." And there you have it. That sentiment right there amongst both politicians and citizens within Toledo is why Toledo can not move forward. Toledo accepts the status quo.
What's the deal?
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080316/NEWS16/803160...
It seems to me, that most people fear the unknown. When you have never experienced something and the taint of it is painted as something that may/may not cause drama..often the choice is to stick with the devil they know rather than venture into something with unknown consequences/bennifits.
Change is often a dirty word as it means there will be disruptions to the status quo. Some of it may be that many are already overwhelmed with life in general and to have to adjust to new programs and new/unknown activity..some just cannot endure more.
What Toledo Citizens must come to understand is that without change, death to the City will come and will reap a huge harvest of lives and futures. Without sacrifice now, without changing the way things are done and the costs therein, the decline will advance and pick up speed. In a nut shell, we will have to sacrifice a lot of the "Cadillac" in Toledo now to have any hope of returning to it in the future. When you are broke and worse, in deficit, you cannot rise out of the mire. You have to cut the costs, tighten the belt, learn to live with what that means and do your fair share to ease the burden on all.
automated truck is a good idea. I am sure that Toledo will still have options for people who have extra trash. They have been doing it in Ann Arbor for years and I have watched the process. The other thing is the City should take the savings and put it toward police, not waste it.
I attribute it to HUA (head up ass) syndrome.
The same reason why they keep reelecting the same old, same old to office and expect change/progress...
Go figure...
Or, dare I say, it's a union town mentality thing?
You know, when there were some real republicans (RHINOs don't count) on City Council, we used to get much more bang for much fewer dollars...
Of course, back then, sense was still common..., on BOTH sides of the aisle, and union officials didn't hold Council seats (and neither did Commies or Socialists).
In a short, clear, consise paragraph, Hooda Thunkit states almost ALL of Toledos problems.
Maybe Toledo should change it's name to Sisyphus, Ohio.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/sisyphus.html
"The automated truck pilot program will not cost anything for the city since several companies vying to sell Toledo its automated trucks and the needed rectangular containers will be providing the equipment free."
No, mention of the total cost of the trucks fleet.
Double the Garbage Tax...then Toledo would want the Automated Trucks.
Chad, please brush up on grammar and spelling before posting. There is no such word as 'bennifits."
The Blade quoted a lady today saying she had to buy a second container - how much do those monster big containers cost? And how heavy are they? Looking at the photos, I can't imagine older seniors (especially older or small women) lugging them to the street. I'd need to know more about personal cost & the difficulty in handling the containers before I can say how I feel about them. They look huge & heavy , even empty - add trash to the top, and I think I may have problems hauling them to the street - they look like they weigh more & are taller than I am.
They're the same size as standard BFI type garbage cans that are scattered all over Sylvania, at least everyone I knew had those type. They're not meant to be carried, they have wheels. I also believe the containers are at no personal cost to you, beside taxes picking up the tab, but they are no additional cost to you. Your also able to receive smaller containers if you'd like.
"We have a lot of questions, and I just think they should stick with the system they have now since it's worked all these years, and I know they are trying to cut costs, but they can cut costs elsewhere."
Because its worked all these years is not a valid answer for keeping the status quo. If the system can be streamlined through technology, relieve the bloat in the system and in government, and at a lower cost then it needs to be examined. Its' exactly why its' not being rolled out all at once, its' only being rolled out in certain areas for testing purposes. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if it works, it decreases city government and the cost of city services, with little to no sacrifice to you then why aren't we embracing this.
Toledo wants change, but won't accept change when given the opportunity.
Ok...I'm confused. I live in one of the three areas (7000 residents) which will have their trash pickup day changed on May1st. Does this mean I am part of the Pilot Program? The Blade conveniently explains the two programs together in the same article but does not clearly define if they are the same program... and if so when can I expect delivery of my 96 gal. can?
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- Just the KAT, thinking out loud again. :)
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The only thing better than automated collection would be privatizing it. Most of us drive something less than a Cadillac by choice, but we don't have that choice in this town. I remember the periodic unlimited pick ups and it gave folks an excuse to clean out their garages. We'll do just fine. My bigger concern is a potential cost reduction that will just allow the powers that be to blow it on something else.
Are there robocops in our future?
What the government wants to do is cut the cost and increase the tax, thereby giving the government more money to spend on private showers, booze and strippers. This automated truck idea has nothing to do with lower cost to the citizens or better service to the citizens. It has everything to do with Toledo boondoggle number 4,921:Trash Tax II.
And your cynicism is supposed to try and help better the situation? Perhaps if we moved in this direction, citizens have a more legitimate position in recalling the illegal $5 trash fee. Toledo DOES have a Cadillac trash service, but you can't keep the cost of that service the same for X amount of years. Costs do increase if anybody understands economics, and that principle doesn't change for government either. We can either move into a cost cutting direction through the use of efficient technology, or we can hike up income to pay for the costs through taxes. Take your pick.
i have to agree with you madjack, i'm reading about all the possible savings, and i'm wondering where the money will go? just because we save some money does not mean our elected officials will put it to good use.
i'm not against the automated system, just wondering how it's going to work, and what we will do when we have more than 2 cans of garbage. some family's are bigger than others, so it might be a little more challenging for some.
with the recycling, do we need to separate, cans, paper, and glass, and will there be a limit on recyclables?
i also wonder about the lady in the articles question about trucks possibly damaging cars. will it be more like park on the street at your own risk?
Well, then, here is some reading. Google is great for looking things like this up, especially tried and tested solutions such as this:
City of Albuquerque: http://www.cabq.gov/solidwaste/trash-collection/auto
A YouTube video of it in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56zfEhQsz2s
Additonal Reading:
http://www.burrtecdesert.com/page85.html
"Features, More Options
Automated trash service offers many benefits. One of the most exciting is that Green Waste (yard and shrubbery clippings) can be recycled with your weekly trash. Recycling is the key to reduce the amount you pay for trash service.
How Does An Automated Trash Collection System Work?
With automated trash, you fill your container(s) during the week and roll it to the curb on your regular trash day. A truck equipped with a mechanical arm lifts it from the street and empties its contents into the truck without the driver ever leaving the cab.
What Are The Benefits Of An Automated Trash Collection System?
* Containers are on wheels for easy roll out to the curb.
* Containers are durable to reduce tipping and spilling.
* Containers help neighborhoods look neater and cleaner.
* Automated trash collection enables Green Waste to be recycled.
* No need to purchase trash cans.
What Can I Do With My Old Containers?
Old trash cans can come in handy. You might want to keep one to use as an earthquake supply container or for storing yard tools. Or, you can donate the cans to schools or friends who don't have automated collection.
What To Do On Trash Day?
On your regular trash day, roll the container(s) out to your curb before 6:00 a.m.
* Be sure the hinged lids are closed.
* Place each container with the handle facing your home, at least two feet from other containers, fifteen feet from parked cars, and five feet from mail boxes and other objects."
Practically every street in my neighborhood will have a problem with that 15 feet thing because there is a lot of on street parking around here.
Having a driveway was one of my requirements when I was looking for my house so I'm covered but there are a couple of streets close by that I can see it being a real problem.
Hooda, MadJack, and Libs are all in their own ways correct. Back up until the 1980s, we actually had diversity and people who knew how to run things on council, had worked their way up in life, and knew how to work together to operate things. You had at least one senior citizen for their input. You had Max Reddish, and others,who owned and operated small businesses. You had TRUE conservatives in not only the republicans, but many of the democrats. Then, in the 80s, the blade began to slowly get its way, and council slowly began being transformed into a group of 'progressives' in their 20s and very early 30s that were fresh out of TU and still wet behind the ears, with no experience at much of anything, including life. People whose only thoughts were fear of the paper, gratitude for its endorsement/backing. People like Gracheck, So-Lousy and Wade the Wonder Boy. People who wanted what J.R. B wanted. People fear that sort of change in toledo because it's never for the better. Years ago, the first Block said "I'm going to remake this town in my image." Sadly. his descendant is finally getting that accomplished. And with only emotion to carry that thinking, it's proving disastrous. The move away from City Manager to strong mayor sucked the big one, too, at least where our needs are concerned. Everything is more tax, more bullshit, more unbridled liberalism, more feel-good legislation, and not much thought involved as to future repercussions or the law of unintended consequences. To make matters worse, that was also the period when the union-busting began in earnest and most of the good-paying jobs -and not just blue-collar-began to disappear, thus compounding the many problems.
And, yes-I know-this post will be poo-poohed by all or most as nothing more than a diatribe against youth. Suit yourself. I've lived here all my life, and know full well exactly when the vast majority of the problems slowly started. Contrary to some of your thinking, not everyone under the age of thirty has the genius of a Bill Gates. Especially when they've all majored in law.
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"Oh, Bother!" Said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.
And Carty, who is 69 years old, has helped to re-enforce your idea that the older you are, the more effective you are? Jack Ford? John Irish? Pete Gerken - 56 years old? Your reasoning and the evidence you present is severely lacking.
Age means nothing.
"To make matters worse, that was also the period when the union-busting began in earnest and most of the good-paying jobs -and not just blue-collar-began to disappear, thus compounding the many problems."
You can blame good jobs disappearing due to the NON-BUSINESS FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT PROVIDED BY UNIONS. I'm sure Ford GM and all of the US automotive industry is really enjoying this Axle plant strike. Its' terrific what they're doing for the economy, right? And we wonder why manufacturing and industrial jobs pass Toledo and Ohio.
Ohio needs to become a right to work state. Forced unionism is a plague of this state. Toledo's problem isn't the Blade, its' the grasp that unions have on our politicians. Toledo's politicians AND its' citizens are too afraid of change and they shy away from bold, progressive steps in promoting a business friendly city/state. THE CITIZENS voted for the income tax. THE CITIZENS are complaining when a service is being looked at in becoming efficient through the use of technology. They complain when an alternative is present, they want the status quo, but complain when they have to increase the trash fee??? Costs of service goes up people. Either we move to an alternative, or you pay. Take your pick.
I say, move forward with automated pickup and eliminate the trash fee FOR THOSE WHO RECYCLE. Those who choose not to recycle, charge them $10. There is no reason not too. Sell off the Erie Street Market and the Tow Lot, eliminate all at-large councilman, re-negotiate with police and fire unions and drop the income tax at least to a 1/4% tax. Ween off it and move toward an income tax free city. Make tax free zones downtown for businesses. Invest and upkeep current infrastructure. For those who say beautifying the city isn't a priority, I call bullshit. Maumee was cited as one of the best places to live, yet, they noted that it was next to the DIRTY INDUSTRIAL LOOK OF NEARBY TOLEDO. Toledo needs a clean downtown and clean, kept neighborhoods SHOULD be a priority. You do NOT go into a business meeting with a stained t-shirt and jeans with holes, especially with a potential client. Unless you have something extraordinary to offer to that potential client, they'll pass you on for the next person.
The point being, Toledo HAS the potential to be a bustling city. IT HAS TREMENDOUS potential. Yet, there are so many old ideologies and too much backward thinking in this town, and nobody is able to step up and take bold steps.
Call me young and nieve, but your older politicians and power grabbing unions are doing little to help this city. You can sit on this blog with your hands under your ass and complain all you'd like, but its' going to do little to change the status quo.
I knew you were going to be one of my detractors before I even finished typing that. Look-I know you can't stand me, and I sure as hell can't stand you, but I have a right to my opinions as much as anyone else here. HOW LONG have Finkbeiner, and Jerken BEEN IN local politics? Jerken has always been a hack, and Cart's always been insane, they weren't the ones I was talking about, but yes, they are also part of the problem. Who picked and endorsed both Carty (first time)AND Ford for mayor? Block. And the last time I asked Chris, this local board was for bitching. Many older people have given up because they've seen it going on here too many years. You can't fight the newspaper , as long as so many people still listen to it.
And unions allowed many of you younger people who have that "My way or the highway" attitude the ability to attend college paid for by your 'snti-business' union parents (perhaps not in your case though, although I really don't care). I've worked both sides of the fence, so i'm neith anti-business or anti-union, but I'll support small business (i.e.LOCAL) any day before big business.
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"Oh, Bother!" Said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.
Darkseid, why does disagreeing with translate to me not standing you. I don't understand your logic in that young people screwed up Toledo when its' the older politicians who dominate Toledo politics, but whatever, its' a disagreement.
"Who picked and endorsed both Carty (first time)AND Ford for mayor? Block."
Absolutely, but the vote of one man didn't put them into office. People who do not educate themselves, those who vote whats in the Blade and vote the way their unions tell them is the issue. In the times I've been a poll worker, and from all other encounters, those people who voted by the Blade were older people. And unfortunately, a union endorsement pretty much guarantees that entire membership to vote a certain way.
"And the last time I asked Chris, this local board was for bitching."
Sure, I guess thats what its' for. I guess its' wishful thinking that people will actually utilize the site for discussing community news and gathering like-minded individuals to get involved in the community.
"And unions allowed many of you younger people who have that "My way or the highway" attitude the ability to attend college paid for by your 'snti-business' union parents (perhaps not in your case though, although I really don't care). I've worked both sides of the fence, so i'm neith anti-business or anti-union, but I'll support small business (i.e.LOCAL) any day before big business."
My dad works as a tool and die maker, and he is non-union. My mom is a radiology technologist, non union. People CAN make a living without being in a union. I'm a computer programmer/web programmer, non-union and I have a nice house in West Toledo. I don't have anybody working on my behalf to give me work and make me money, I tend to feel thats my responsibility. Unions have its place, no doubt about it, but meddling in local politics is NOT one of them. Your unionized city workers is a good portion of why your taxes are the way they are. That, and sporadic wasteful spending by some from the older generation ;).
High taxes, union control, and petty squabbles between
Toledos politicians AND with suburban neighbors plague this region. Toledo and Lucas County need to clean up their image to be a more transparent, streamlined government with lower taxes, and it needs to move toward strengthening ties with the suburbs to cooperatively market this region as Lake Erie West. Without that, you can count on continued stagnant or declining growth in Toledo and Northwest Ohio.
I noticed that in the article they don't address the questions posed by the one lady regarding street parking and the trucks.
Will they return to alley pick ups in some areas to get around the street parking issue?
I don't mind trying something new but I would also like to see more of the questions answered, like how are they going to handle it when senior citizen's can't handle moving these bins, especially in the winter.
96 gallons sound like that could be pretty heavy, even for non seniors.
What happens if you'd prefer two or three of the smaller ones because of the weight issue? Is it a possibility? Will there be a charge if you'd prefer to do that?
Who will be responsible for replacing the bins when they become damaged, say by blowing all over creation in high winds while you're at work on trash day?
What will happen to large item pick ups?
Absolutely. Those are certainly legitimate questions and those who do have questions should contact the city for answers.
But quotes such as this: "We have a lot of questions, and I just think they should stick with the system they have now since it's worked all these years, and I know they are trying to cut costs, but they can cut costs elsewhere."
The problem is, you can't have the mentality that since its' worked all these years, why not keep it. If there is a more cost-effective, efficient system available, we need to be implementing that. Automated trash has already been utilized in cities larger than ours, and I'm sure the issues of cars on the street, narrow roadways, and containers that seniors can't carry have been addressed before. This isn't a groundbreaking alternative.
And BTW-the reason Block wants his politicos as young as possible-easier to mold the way he wants 'em, plus they'll be in some sort of local office (playing musical chairs in LC as usual) for many MORE years than if they started running at say , forty. I have been told that personally by a friend that used to work at the rag. I really don't give a shit if you believe that or not, I trust her to tell me the truth.
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"Oh, Bother!" Said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.
I'm sure he did say that, Block is a shady dude. You can bet if I even had a smidgen of a thought to run for office, The Blade and the unions wouldn't have an inch of control over me. What a concept, a politician who actually works for the people, and isn't afraid to risk his "political career" by making bold moves.
But, it isn't about Block, its' about the CITIZENS who refuse to think for themselves.
Place each container with the handle facing your home, at least two feet from other containers, fifteen feet from parked cars, and five feet from mail boxes and other objects.
Place each container... right. This is really going to work. What are the options when the operator claims your cans aren't positioned correctly? How about (get a clue here, Toledo++) just finding place to put the cans in the middle of the mild Toledo winter? The biggest problem with this entire train wreck isn't that it's going to happen. The big problem is that when the Southbound Special slams into the Northbound News, the passenger gets to foot the bill for the cleanup while the railroad denies that there ever was a problem, much less a train wreck. In plain language, once the city starts this, there is no way to stop and restore the old system. Naturally, we may not have to.
We have the testimonials from Ann Arbor and Albuquerque about how wonderful automated trash collection is. Of course, these comments come from the local government and are solicited by those who support the system, so I kind of question the bias of these opinions, but that's just me being paranoid. Right, Darkseid? Our government wouldn't lie to us, would they?
If Toledo really wanted to cut costs and deliver better service, they'd outsource the garbage collection immediately and they'd use more than a single company. But, since the government has that nice trash collection fee rolling in, outsourcing isn't really a viable option.
Then we have Toledo++ trying to convince the rest of the world that through this remarkable new collection method coupled with the wonders of modern economic theory, the city of Toledo will be able to afford to buy or lease all new equipment, train the operators, give every household one or more brand new garbage cans and still save money, which will be, I don't know, quietly stashed into a new shower for the city council members.
Here's a hint. Don't drop the soap.
I wondered about that to.. can placement.. the one picture in that Blade article made it look like the cans were sitting in the approach of the driveway.
Thats well and good if your approach is wide enough. If I sit my trash there with two feet between them there is no way I'd be able to get my car out of the drive.
I'm looking forward to an honest assesment from the people living in the test area.
with all the savings, why are we paying for recycling? you'd think we could get a reduction in our taxes with all the savings.
Savings from what? Recycling? From what I understand, recycling doesn't provide an immediate savings, it provides for extended use of the landfill, essentially getting more bang for the buck with the current one.
Reduction in man hours, reduction in work force less people needed to operate the fleet.
Reduction in workers comp claims.
"Moving to full garbage automation could save about $5.5 million in salary costs annually, but $2.5 million a year would be used to pay down the capital cost of equipment and containers, Mr. Franklin said."
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080316/NEWS16/803160...
neighborhood, yes, that's what i'm talking about, the "savings" they were talking about in the article. i just don't understand why we need to pay for recycling if we are saving all this money to go with the new system.
"i just don't understand why we need to pay for recycling if we are saving all this money to go with the new system."
Who says we have to pay for recycle? In fact, there's call for people paying more if you DON'T recycle, to give people a nudge to make the adjustment and move toward recycling.
Reduction in work force?
I doubt it
The trash employees displaced by the automated trucks will just be absorbed into other departments.
The fee associated with recycling is an incentive to increase recycling, although not the same sort of incentive in a PAYT, Pay As You Throw, system.
Here we have a flat fee, which the city leadership, has admitted is not enforced, well and if at all.
With the PAYT, you pay bag, throw away less bags and recycle more, save money, here with a broken system here and there, who knows.
The city is moving in the direction of automated pick up with at present many questions.
We can hope that to the many questions, the leadership is reading and understanding the concerns and maybe, just maybe, taking the comments in as constructive concerns and will respond.
1. 96 gallon cans. Where is this pilot test going to happen? Where is there a cluster of 10,000 homes where they can move a 96 gallon can around? Even if it's ONE pound a gallon, that's 96 pounds.
2. What's going to happen to the two guys who are not needed on the truck anymore? I'm just saying, we've lost alot of jobs in Toledo. How many lost jobs does this translate into.
3. Is there any connection with the local government or community paper and the company who will be selling the city the equipment? Due diligence should be performed.
1. The 96 gallon containers are easy to push. They come with wheels. They are used quite frequently in Sylvania and its mandated in Maumee, and Maumee has a privatized system.
2. Its' not the city's' job to employ people. If those people lose their jobs due to more efficient systems taking their place, its' time to find work in the private sector.
3. I've got nothing for this one.
1. I have two neighbors who are over 80 years old. It is not appropriate to ask them to push 96 gallons of anything....anywhere. That's not going to work with elderly widows or widowers. It just can't.
2. What you say might work, if we still had a business sector in Toledo that was hiring.We do not. We just don't. We are in the top tier for the unemployment numbers. Not good news if you find yourself needing a job in the city of Toledo right now.
So basically if you are displaced by the new system then you need to move out of Toledo? I think the exodus is large enough......but you do have to have a job - so I don't know what the answer is there either. I just hate to see anybody lose their job right now.
"1. I have two neighbors who are over 80 years old. It is not appropriate to ask them to push 96 gallons of anything....anywhere. That's not going to work with elderly widows or widowers. It just can't."
Absolutely understandable. There's obviously several smaller containers that are available, however not confirmed, I do believe any additional containers (requesting smaller containers) will cost you. But I do believe this is only starting out as a test pilot, so give it a fair shot. Elderly are also able to ask for assistance, at least currently in other cities that option is available to them. Perhaps after the pilot, enough feedback will come in to dictate to council, look, they might need to come up with a better plan to allow for smaller containers for those who request it, and at no cost to the citizen. Any additional containers though would then come at a cost. So the 80 year old neighbor requests the 32 gallon container right off the bat, and the 25 year old on the other side receive the 96. Its' a pilot program for a reason.
"So basically if you are displaced by the new system then you need to move out of Toledo? I think the exodus is large enough......but you do have to have a job - so I don't know what the answer is there either. I just hate to see anybody lose their job right now."
Employing people through taxpayer funds for the purpose of keeping them employed while receiving excellent health insurance AND a pension/retirement fund, and then leaving the ordinary citizen whose scraping by to pay for those people is just plain silly. I agree with you, it would suck. Its' not a great way to go, but when the city is in a deficit, its' citizens are deep in debt, and there are solutions that can make government services more efficient to save both government citizens money then it needs to be pursued.
An idea I inquired about today at the District 5 and District 1 budget hearing was the city look into semi-privatization. Indianapolis has/is implementing this. The city doesn't just ask for contracts and hand over the city service to a private company, but rather the city bids as well. My thought on it was more too allow the public to choose whether they want to work with another company , a private company, or maintain the level of service and cost of the city's service. But at least allow for that opportunity for a competing bid. I would expect that to be a reasonable meet-in-the-middle type solution, as well as a fairly good sized cost cutting measure.