One year ago City Council passed an "emergency" ordinance setting aside $270,000 for the development of townhouses on Door at Smead. A check today of the property will show nothing has been done. I was curious about the situation and wrote to Wilma Brown the Councilperson for that district. What follows is an example of the arrogance citizens face each day from the current administration.
Ms. Brown, Can you please explain why after a full year no work has been done on the project at Dorr and Smead? Why the measure was passed as an emergency since it's obviously not a priority, and where is the $270,000 council approved.
Your quick response to these questions is appreciated and will be reported on during the WSPD morning news show. Fred LeFebvre
Councilperson Brown answered:
The developer added a local partner and has concluded negotiations with the bank. This bank has required 2 pre-sales prior to closing on the construction loan. Pre-sales can be difficult without a model unit. The Dorr Street Coalition has recently assisted the developers with marketing, and several leads have been generated. The developers have contracted with a local real estate agent who has interviewed several interested buyers and referred some of them to various financial institutions in order to pre-qualify them. The developers believe that they will be able to enter into at least 2 purchase contracts in the very near future, which will allow the developers to close with the bank on their construction loan.
In regard to the 270K being passed as an "emergency"....the vast majority of legislation passed by Council is passed as an emergency. This simply means that the legislation is effective upon the Mayor's signature. The money has been appropriated and earmarked for this project and will be available as soon as the project begins.
Should you have any further inquiries regarding the Brownstones on Dorr Street Project, please contact Mike Badik in the Dept of Neighborhoods. He has worked with the developer on a regular basis. He can be reached at 419-245-1400.
Office of Councilwoman Wilma D. Brown
You'll notice there are no names for the developer, local partner, bank, or real estate agent referred to in this letter. Councilperson Browns' characterization of "emergency" legislation is flawed as more often than not "emergency" attached to an ordinance implies the need for quick action to avoid disruption of city services.
I followed this letter with two phone calls and messages to Mr. Badik. Since I received no response after five days I sent the following letter.
Mr. Badik, Operating on the theory that you answer e-mails more quickly than you answer your messages, let me try once again to get some answers on the Brownstone Development on Dorr at Smead.
Can you please tell me the name of the developer, their new local partner, and the local bank with which they now have an agreement. Also please include the local real estate agent who has interested buyers. All of these people have been referenced in a letter I received from Councilperson Wilma Brown who suggested you would have the answers
\nI appreciate your quick response
Fred LeFebvre
Now I'm not sure why Mr. Badik would inform Mr. Schwartz of my request instead of answering it himself but apparently he did just that, as I received this e-mail from the Mayor's spokesman.
Fred: Mike Badik will not be calling you back on this issue.
Brian
That is not edited. You will notice although I took care to address both Councilperson Brown and Mr. Badik formally Mr. Schwartz saw fit to respond in a most informal manner although we are not friends. Of course I responded.
Brian, No need for Mr. Badik to return a call. I wrote an e-mail and like any citizen of the city of Toledo expect a reply with the information requested.
Yours from Toledo, a city of the future Fred LeFebvre
Seems pretty fair so far, eh? A request from a citizen about where and how $270,000 of my tax dollars are being spent. In this administration even the simple is made difficult. Mr. Schwartz responded once again to me and copied Mr. Badik it appears.
You will be provided any documents to which you are entitled under the Ohio Freedom of Information Act. Keep in mind, this law does not require us to create a document for you. Nor does it require us to answer questions.
Mike, Please forward Fred's questions to me and we'll see if he has requested any documents.
Again I point out that I did not edit out a salutation or closing signature. The common rules of letter writing must be lost on the 22nd floor. And there it stands. I will be writing to my district councilperson Rob Ludeman, as well as the at-large councilpeople. It seems odd that the names of the people handling $270,000 of my tax dollars can' be named. Unless of course there is a reason for not naming them because they either don't exist, are friends of the administration, or the money isn't there any longer. I can think of no other options.
Mr. Schwartz gave me the response, "You will be provided any documents to which you are entitled under the Ohio Freedom of Information Act. Keep in mind, this law does not require us to create a document for you. Nor does it require us to answer questions.", when I asked about the copies of the secret shoppers reports.
"Unless of course there is a reason for not naming them because they either don
To the club. I have similar emails dating a year back and then some. I also have some "fun" letters from the Mayor himself. This is common practice in our current regime. The man clearly has animosity towards you individually. And if you are not "liked", you get nadda.
This is why I believe it's long overdue that we, the people, change the entire leadership as soon as possible to turn this city around. We must stop the hemoraging of cash from the municipal government. You may never find that money, or the "Trash fee" that goes into the general fund etc. Unless of course, you take a trip over to the Marina District.
What they still fail to realize is that we the people are their collective employer. They by law and/or by honor MUST release any information we request at anyt time. The "door" to the top should always be open to ANY citizen at any time. Even if the citizen isn't the best friend of the administration.
..., keep up the pressure.
It appears that things are beginning to get a bit testy on the 22nd floor, making for the terse and incorrect response from "The Schwartz."
I sense the lava dome is bulging, and we all know what follows.
Methinks the efforts of young Tom are beginning to wear a bit thin on "his dishonor's" nerves and those of his minions.
You know, another timely lawsuit could speed up the inevitable. . . ;-)
Poor Scout, stuck between a lunatic and an apologist/enabler :-)
Hooda Thunkit
He's a fair and decent man caught in the snare of the administration. He's a bright guy and does a fair job of "Housing Comish". I believe the order remains for only B.S. to respond to Wspd. Once in a while, they let a "trusted" employee of the Mayor to comment w/o Brian..but it's a rare and unpredictable moment.
During a meeting I attended that the Mayor was also present for, he repetedly made reference to Fred and his critical opinion of the Mayor's pet project..bike paths. I can attest that the Mayor has seriously negitive opinions of Fred and Wspd in general. He would most likely jump from the 22nd floor before he would willing give any info to Fred.
I'm sure there are citizens who would agree a large part of any elected official's responsibility is communicating effectively with citizens and responding in a timely and accurate manner. I take this responsibility as a huge priority and often as a school board member, the concern or problem is to be handled by someone in Administration, but it is my responsibility to see that the citizen who inquires directly to me, does in fact, receive the information to the best of the organization's ability and to the satisfaction of the taxpayer. As a Board Member, I want to ensure that calls are returned and information requests are complied with timely. When I served as President of the Board, I kept a log of calls and noted my action or if follow-up was needed - it was a very simple system that worked. I may have missed a call or two during that year but I put it on a high priority to be responsive to citizens and the media alike. Civil service is to be our first priority even when disagreements occur - just my two cents on this topic! Darlene Fisher
"I can attest that the Mayor has seriously negitive opinions of Fred and Wspd in general."
The administration and its appointees need to remember that citizens have an interest in how the city functions and so on and if they cannot seperate a public persona from a private citizen and especially with the call by the Mayor to make nice, nice.
There will always be people who have an opinion and it may or may not be critical.
Other politico's let go of comments and move on, why can't the same happen here.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
...first, Ohio doesn't have a "freedom of information act." Ohio has the Public Records law. And it's referred to as the Public Records law - not FOIA...you'd think a PIO would know the difference.
Second, ORC says that members of the public have the right to view and inspect any public record during normal business hours - and that records must be kept in such a way to allow a member of the public to view them accordingly. ... Since the administration doesn't want to answer questions, I'd show up at the office and ask to view any and all letters, memos, emails, contracts, notes relating to the development which mention the name of the developer, the new partner, the bank or the real estate agent. I'd then request copies of any specific communication that I wanted...
Since it's known that there is a new partner, there must be something in writing to the city which explains this. Since it's known that there is a bank, there must be something in writing which names the bank. Since it's known that there is a real estate agent, there must be something in writing which names the agent.
Third, if I was an elected official who'd requested that a member of the city staff respond with further information - and then that person didn't (or refused), I'd be back on the phone with the elected official asking her to obtain the information for me...
just my thoughts on the ridiculousness of the situation...
Maggie,
Most journalists cite FOIA when they request documents. That is what I call it too even though that is not what it really is. Sometimes we get into bad habits. You are correct in naming the law as it was passed. It's also called "The Sunshine Law".
I keep a copy of the Ohio Sunshine Laws/Public Records and Open Meetings Acts Training Manual 2006 edition from the Ohio Attorney General on my desk. I reference it regularly.
FWIW...
Article published Saturday, August 19, 2006
6-unit development set for Dorr-Smead
'Brownstones' completion likely in '07
Six new brick townhouses for sale will be built to start the redevelopment of the central-city neighborhood at Dorr Street and Smead Avenue, city officials announced yesterday at a ground-breaking ceremony.
Developer Jackson McDaniel, of Four Seasons Housing Corp., Birmingham, Mich., said construction of "the Brownstones on Dorr Street" would begin right away, with completion likely in early 2007.
He said the dwellings would be sold at prices ranging from $87,000 to $95,000. Each unit will have a private backyard and garage, and the rear yards will be accessible only through the garage.
Toledo City Council voted last week to award $270,000 in federal funds to assist the project at 1630-1638 Dorr. The total cost of the six-unit project is $816,000.
Buyers must have an income that does not exceed 80 percent of the area median income, or $47,100 for a family of four. Mr. McDaniel said the homes will be within the reach of someone with at least a $30,000 income.
KeyBank Community Lending Group will assist with construction financing, mortgages, assistance with down payments, and home ownership training.
District 1 Councilman Wilma Brown said the project is part of a long-term effort at fulfilling the promises of urban renewal that were made in the late 1970s when buildings that once housed black-owned businesses were torn down.
"Everything was wonderful until 1966 and we had a mini riot with the Black Panthers. Business started to move out of the area, as well as families," she said.
Recent improvements have included repaving the street from Reynolds Road to downtown and replacing the sewer lines. She said another goal is to restore the former Ira Apartments building at Dorr and Parkside Boulevard.
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060819/NEWS16/60...
That's funny, cause I went in to ask for some information from a certain dept. and they asked me who it was for, what my name was, and then went in the back to huddle and told me to submit a written request to the director and said that I could be a terrorist!!!
They also want to charge more than they are supposed to for copies. according to Ohio Law, copies should be 5 cents.
Update to the story....I tracked down the developer and the local construction manager who it turns out is also a co-developer. Jack McDaniel (mich) and Roosevelt Gant (toledo) both say they are ready to go. The problem is the banks in town have required a minumum of two pre sales of the townhouses. Tough to do when you only have a picture to show someone and want them to drop tens of thousands of dollars. Gant says ReMax is working with him and has some interested buyers applying for the loans. I guess only time will tell. The question still remains though, has the 270k just been sitting there waiting for someone to use it, and if so why was it such an emergency one year ago? And why wasn't Mike Badik who's a Dept. Head allowed to simply answer my questions? Curiously enough one of my listeners e mailed Brian and asked the same questions. Brian answered each one with no problem. I guess he must have been listening this morning although I feel certain he will post otherwise.
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
Fred,
You asked questions. I choose whose questions I answer and whose I do not. I don't answer your questions. I don't answer Brian's questions either. Open up your phone lines and perhaps I'll start.
Had you come in and asked for documents, if they were at my disposal, I'd have made them available. I received the document request you had Kevin Milliken deliver for you today and I put one of the documents in his hand on the spot. I've assembled the documents in my possession that respond to your request except for one which I have to find tomorrow. Badik and the mayor will take a little longer.
at least to me, that there had to be this amount of fuss and kerfuffle about a document or release of information.
"Keep in mind, this law does not require us to create a document for you. Nor does it require us to answer questions. Mike, Please forward Fred's questions to me and we'll see if he has requested any documents."
It has been asked and I guess we can continue to question this, why does the City Spokesperson have to be involved with releases of information?
"Had you come in and asked for documents, if they were at my disposal, I'd have made them available."
Had the head of the department that the request was put to simply responded and offered some explanation, but, no.
And now comes the war of words between the City Spokesperson and WSPD and this does what for the city?
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
NC,
Because I am the Executive Officer and the PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER. You might guess from the title PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, I might be the OFFICER, responsible for getting INFORMATION to the PUBLIC.
Actually, it is a war of no words. Fred and Brian don't let me use my words on their show (what are they afraid of?), and I don't answer their questions.
Fortunately, WSPD has two good reporters who are treated with every respect and courtesy by myself and the mayor.
NC,
You're pretty darn close. City employees who want to talk to the media go through me first. Release of information is cooperative between myself and the law department.
Get my own show? Well, I guest hosted Troy Neff's show and Brian Wilson threw a hissy fit in Andy Stuart's office. Almost cried from what eyewitnesses tell me.
There's nothing in the 1st amendment that compels me to speak to them.
Brian, I think you and the administration should be more flexible with information requests. Whether it is Fred or anyone else, you should go out of your way to help. It sounds bad when you say someone won't be responding. It is easy to close things down, but you and the administration can earn respect by being open regardless of your opinions of the person requesting it.
While the Toledo Public Schools have dragged their feet on information requests before, I did respect them because they never gave me a run around or made excuses on why they could not fulfill it or say what I did wrong in the request. I heard horror stories of other governmental entities giving citizens the run around and that is not respectful.
But everyone will respect you if you follow the principle of remaining true to the foundations that our country was founded on regardless of the outside issues.
Just a positive suggestion.
Anyone else can read more about how to use technology to push for open government at:
http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/
It deals with the national level, but its principles are applicable to the local level. BTW it is run on the same Open Source CMS this site runs on and the Open Source Wiki platform. All free if you have the system to run it.
Wrong Chris. We won't earn any respect from WSPD or their entertainers. They don't have an audience of consequence. It profits us not to cooperate. I meet the letter of the law and nothing more when it comes to WSPD.
You can try to get us all to sing kumbaya, but it aint' going to happen. Brian is an egomaniac with delusions of grandeur. Fred is a lemming. Their ratings are low and sinking lower. What do we have to gain by answering their inane questions?
I'd rather go on a real show with a real host who knows something about Toledo government and knows how to host a show like Troy Neff on AM 1230 or Tom Watkins at 1560 WTOD. Want to hear the truth? Listen to them.
I am appalled at the conversation from a public official to the public.
So you are paying a public employee (BS) to denigrate you on a public blog. I am truly horrified at the tone of Mr. Schwartz's writings. Is he under the influence?
Is the Mayor approving of this tone? This is terrible.
The clouds are gathering in the West. Brian, we actually like you. Please abandon this ridiculous stance of yours. Start being authentic. By the way, just let me know where you want me to be, and when, so you can sign your name to the recall petition. Trust me, Brian, you'll be a star.
Any person, city employee or not, that defends the actions of another city employee (SF)that intentionally and without remorse or regard to the publics property and safety can not in all honesty call himself a couteous and respectful person. EVERY resident in the city of Toledo should be appalled at the actions and childish behavior of the few individuals of whom are giving our city a very bad image. What a waste of city money to have them on the payroll.
Baloney.
All problems can be resolved.
It is even recognized that the "entertainment" department is involved.
The problems seem to be very personal in nature and not business related with comments that people are alleged to have hissy fits and so on. This accomplishes nothing and it is related to the city how and as a city representative there seems to be a failure to comprehend that the writings and on-line disputes are in the public domain and do not show the representatives of the city in a positive light.
Maybe the two combatants can get some mediation and move on.
And back to the matter at hand, as a citizen who is not a media representative raises a hand and asks who are the people that the Mayor refers to when he stated; "The mayor says people are committed to buying, and that's all the bank needs to get the project financed."
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
People are holding Carty to task for discussing FedEx negotiations in public, yet Brian is supposed to spill all that is going on about this affair? I don
Old South End Broadway
But is Brian Schwartz the spokesman for the mayor, or in some position that represents the mayor?
If this is true, why is he on a blog in the middle of a working day being arrogant and disrespectful to the public, whoever they may be.
Unless he is on vacation, but still he represents the mayor. right?
I just don't believe that this would happen in any other city but Toledo. Future city, what future?
As far as I know people still get lunchtimes (even in government) so that could be it. It could also be he has been assigned to deal with the "opinion leaders" of the Internet? He is, after all, a Public Information Officer. This might be a good way (though I don't think so) to get information out.
Myself, I think he is wasting his time trying to provide information to those whose minds are already made up. He should just deal with reporters, and large crowds.
Old South End Broadway
8:50 AM
11:57 AM
12:52 PM
11:55AM-12:55 PM? His "official" workday might start at 9:00 AM. Of course, as someone in an "appointed" position (rather than civil service) he might not have "regular" start times for his workdays. We want information, but then we want to confront him about when he gives it to us. Doesn't make sense to me.
Old South End Broadway
Somehow I stumbled across this comedic adventure from WSPD's website. WOW! was the first thing that came to mind. After reading much of the posts I'm left to wonder how old some are on this page, and you should know who I'm referring too.
I have to agree with "Purnhrt" as to why a public official , during business hours at tax payors expense, is PLAYING around on the internet. If he feels that guilty that he must respond during all hours of the day, then this city really has issues.
What I really take offense to is Brian's (Schwartz that is) comment on WSPD's audience is of no consequence! Brian could you please clarify that for the less educated.......Because apparently as a result of my private education and college degree, I don't understand what you are referring to. Are you saying that WE (WSPD listeners) don't matter? Are you saying we are too stupid to understand? Are you saying that the number of listeners is not consequential?
What exactly did you mean by that, I'd like to know?
Is he on the Internet in an "informational" capacity? If so, that makes more sense than him listening to three hours of drivel every morning waiting for some sense from Fred. Why would he waste three hours of my tax dollars waiting for something reasoned to come out when I don't.
Am I to be considered inconsequential because I don't rise with the birds to listen to drivel? I sometimes listen to the podcasts, but that is too late to respond in person to the inanities I hear. It's a friggin' radio program that is on the air to get advertisers, and make money for its owner. It has nothing to do with information, and everything to do with emotion to make money.
Old South End Broadway
I know it's not good communication, but if the mayor's PIO had something important to impart why does he have to listen to three hours until he gets a chance to cut in? I suppose these things could be scheduled, but it appears that isn't being done.
Old South End Broadway
unless it's "ambush" journalism.
Old South End Broadway
If ya see it comming :-)
I don't know about Brian Schwartz, but I believe that Czarty doesn't feel we are very smart. We voted him back into office, didn't we? I've heard that Czarty doesn't think we are smart enough to get him recalled.
who wants to get their story into the public eye would find blogging a legitimate way to do so.
"If this is true, why is he on a blog in the middle of a working day"
Because that's his job. Or do you think that this venue is useless for information dissemination?
And, as Mr. Schwartz says, "Because I am the Executive Officer and the PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER." ...My bold...
So, Toledoans are getting their money's worth.
Also, Mr. Schwartz is well aware that people other than just posters read his representations here, so we should expect him to continue posting and commenting -- regardless of a few who attempt to bully him while hiding behind their anonymity.
And I listen to WSPD on the road, and at home (not often at home 'cause my wife doesn't like talk radio). I enjoy listening to Fred, Brian and Kevin. Admittedly, I usually miss Brian. When I do get to listen, he has interesting guests (So do you Fred, so don't get all weird on me.), and a good sense of humor. At noon I like to try and catch Rush. So, I'm not taking up one (Mr. Schwartz) against the other(WSPD).
his tone is inappropriate.
We have to give Brian credit. He is trying to diligently represent his king. Thats what a minister of propaganda does, but Brian knows as well as the rest of us what Czarty is. I've been present when Czarty has been very disrespectful to Brian and others on his staff. Brain knows how Czarty's left hook is. Lets patiently wait to hear about Czarty's right cross.
I agree that blogging and keeping an eye on it is part of his job. I appreciate being able to communicate or at least put my thoughts there and know that someone who has the ear of the mayor (at least I hope Carty listens, but...) is reading.
Just as we expect Brian S. to be polite here, we should be as well. I did not like some of his posts - not because he is not entitled to his opinion, but because as a representative of the Mayor's office he should be serving the community and not any petty grudges. I expect him to be human and I respect his opinion, but I also expect him to understand that every citizens regardless of how he feels about them has a right to expect their government to respond to their questions.
Thanks for coming here Brian. And thanks for asking for a review of the cost. I believe we want and need citizens to have access to government and to have informed opinions they require accurate information. I believe the cost to get documents should be the absolute minimum so that it does not impede the flow of information. Besides, where do you think the funds actually come from to cover most of this cost - you guessed it, the taxpayers. We have a right to have our questions answered or the documentation provided to answer our questions. I leave the choice to those elected officials, but I do intend to hold them accountable.
The more I read Swamp Bubbles and several of its contributors, the more I'm convinced that Toledo is simply out of touch with the national and global economy.
Does Toledo have what it takes to attract business or is it a lost cause?
Right now I don't see any voter responsibility in defining a vision to which the city has a foothold on the future.
Somehow I still believe the city needs more pain, before real change becomes acceptable.
My concern is that the pain becomes too servere for future generations to handle.
Tpsteacher24 - I apologize for not seeing this post until now. Actually Steve Flagg brought this to my attention as I haven't been back to this thread since 8/1. However to answer your question regarding a TPS levy for November. What I can provide to you are the steps I've taken to get this clarified myself and as follows:
1) I've been asking for the Superintendent's/Administration recommendation for some time now. One of the reasons we need to move the budget cycle and approval process up in the year is for this exact situation. So we are not pressed to the deadline to decide if a levy is needed or not. The deadline for that decision is August 23rd. We have a board meeting on August 21st. But I have been repeatededly requesting information from Mr. Foley and the Treasurer regarding where the district stands with the budget and what the financial situation is for the next 3 to 5 year period.
Since our 7/31 budget hearing where it was noted that the district will now carryover $18M it will be difficult for citizens to understand the reason a levy should be placed on the November ballot. I have been asking that the district review the budget in depth and this time under our new Treasurer they went to a zero-based budgeting approach. This approach resulted in much less spending in several budget areas in May and June and therefore added to the additional carryover balance along with the district losing less students and receiving additional state monies. Currently, with this information, I can not be in favor of placing a levy on the ballot for November. I have repeatedly stated that I do not want to be blindsided by a decision to put a levy on the ballot and if it will be difficult to sell the public on the need for a November levy that is very concerning to me. I am waiting for the Administration to state their case and recommendation but at this time, they have not and with it being 8/8 there are only 8 business days left before the 8/21 meeting.
That is the information I have at this time. I'd be happy to contact you to discuss in this in more depth or feel free to call me at the board office. I'd be very interested in your opinion and ideas. Thank you, Darlene Fisher
The delays are likely due to the fact that Developer Jackson McDaniel of Four Seasons Housing Corp (also of Diversified Financial and Realty and retired vice president of the Related Group of Florida, based in Miami) has been busy in the court room defending himself against sexual harrassment relating to his Adrian, Michigan project and Fraud charges from the US government relating to his DeWitt, Michigan development. Although he still roams free, not the kind of person to invest faith or money in. He also is planning developments in Delhi Township and Meridian Township in Michigan. The Michigan projects above are all utilizing low income tax credit financing through HUD. Interesting research can be done with the information provided in this comment
...I once had a city of Toledo attorney tell me I could deny a request for records filed under and referencing FOIA, as FOIA doesn't apply to the City of Toledo - only to a federal government agency.
In my instance, I responded that we were beginning the collection of the requested materials, but I asked that they make the request properly, referencing Ohio law...
post should be under Mr. Schwartz's comment
Did I just read that Brian Schwartz says anyone can ask for the info and get it? I wonder why the I got the response I got then and why a listener asked the same questions and got all the answers for me. It must hurt to speak from both sides of your mouth Brian.
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
cassalovem,
They should not have done this. Unless you were asking for documents clearly related to the safety of the public, you can not be compelled to supply your name or any other information.
We are allowed to charge up to $.25 a copy.
Lets be nice people.
I was listening to Fred this morning, and his phone lines were specifically open to you for the last hour or so.
Quit calling yourself a Public Information Officer if you can't supply the Public with the Information they want.
Nice to have you back, Brian. Right in the thick of things.
Just for the record. Many years ago, I used to request records from government agencies. The government agencies were always cooperative, After They Sanitized The Files. Sometimes things are taken out and sometimes things are inserted. Thats called a sanitized file. Even when you get the files you never know what is being hidden from you. If the government agency finds something in a public file that may be potentially damaging to the agency or the agency's case they will have their law department request the document(s) and then the law department will reclassify the document as attorney-client-privilidge, attorney work product, confidential or some other wild legal term. About the only way you are going to get the document once the attorneys get it is to find a judge and file a Writ of Mandamus.
So, let me see if I understand this correctly.
If a citizen asks a question or requests information, like a copy of the city's IT policy, it has to go through you? Departmental heads have to ask you to get the information out to the public? Do you need to keep your finger on the pulse for publicity reasons? So, I ask what is the progress on a oft reported location the person I ask has to clear it with you?
I don't guess I ask questions, like this one.
"Actually, it is a war of no words. Fred and Brian don't let me use my words on their show..."
Get your own show? Maybe? Or give it up, maybe?
There is really nothing to be gained by you and the Mayor with the continuing friction with WSPD and I do not listen to WSPD,
You and the Mayor lost the First Amendment case that the administration provoked and you are loosing the chance to get on the air and you really are starting to appear down right silly and pig headed for all the wrong reasons.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
And conversely there is nothing in the amendment that compels them to let you on.
So?
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
I fail to see why the Mayor recruited you with statements like this;
"Well, I guest hosted Troy Neff's show and Brian Wilson threw a hissy fit in Andy Stuart's office. Almost cried from what eyewitnesses tell me."
Top notch for a PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
No but you might earn our respect because you took the high road and just did your job regardless of who might be asking you. Does this mean if I go on the air and criticize you and the mayor that I too will be thrown into that category?
I don't care who has what ego or does or does not do this or that or what their ratings may be - do you realize how you sound? I'm sure you want to do a good job, but talking about who a person is to decide how the government should respond to them does not sound like my idea of what I expect in a public official in a representative democracy. If standards like that are applied, watch out because you could find yourself in the minority some day.
How do you know they are telling the truth if you don't listen to AM radio anymore?
Did it ever occur to you that this incident with Fred has gone beyond the airwaves and the blogosphere? People talk. So I don't think you need to worry about gaining/losing respect just from WSPD. The story of how unprofessional you are acting in representing the administration is far-reaching.
...the citizens. So, is there going to be a levy on the ballot in November?
--These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will; in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. -Thomas Paine
Recently I traveled to a couple large cities in the Southern USA. When I told some people I met I was from Toledo,Ohio they chuckled. One of the persons I met said, "Toledo is the type of place that fools and Klansman would feel right at home". Yes, we do have some people who are our so-called leaders making us the laughing-stock of America.
Lets get those recall signatures,including Brian Schwartz's signature, and get Czarty and his henchmen out of office.
Who the people are is a private matter, since it is a private transaction between private entities. When the transaction is completed, it will be a public record. Until then, it is private.
To be honest with you, I'm not sure anybody but the private developer knows.
Mr Schwartz is the one who complained he can't call in to WSPD. So your defending him to for not listening to WSPD while Schwartz is complaining he can't call in....
Mr. Schwartz,
I find this portion of your post to be a direct insult to the people of Toledo:
They don't have an audience of consequence.
This sounds as though you, nor the Mayor, feel that the citizenry of Toledo are intelligent enough to sort through opinion, rhetoric and drivel when listening to a radio show.
Mr. Schwartz - to underestimate the citizens of Toledo as being less than "an audience of consequence" could certainly prove to be a major downfall in your position. I would hope that you were letting your thoughts ramble in front of any level of good sense you may hold.
I find this feud between the Administration and WSPD to be childish, spiteful, embarrassing and totally uncalled for - on both sides of the fence. It is counter-productive and fully self-serving by all parties. I would hope that someone in this melee' would have the class to step up and do the right thing.
While the First Amendment case was valid, the behaviors that brought that incident to light and the behaviors since are unacceptable.
What I really take offense to is Brian's (Schwartz that is) comment on WSPD's audience is of no consequence! Brian could you please clarify that for the less educated.......Because apparently as a result of my private education and college degree, I don't understand what you are referring to. Are you saying that WE (WSPD listeners) don't matter? Are you saying we are too stupid to understand? Are you saying that the number of listeners is not consequential?
What exactly did you mean by that, I'd like to know?
Submitted by mwebber2 on Thu, 2007-08-02 14:41.
I'd like a response to this question myself!
...like a drug addict that hasn't hit rock bottom to know s/he needs to change...
Maggie,
It's too bad that a city attorney told you that. That's picking gnat crap out of pepper. You shouldn't have to be able to cite the name of the statute to demand documents from the government.
That's news to me. I don't listen to Fred anymore, so I didn't know his lines were open.
Either the lines are open or they are not. Fred and Brian can't pick and choose. That is what they like to do, but I'm not playing that game. It's all or nothing.
I'm not frightened or afraid of any public debate. Public debate is good. Public officials should be here and on other blogs that are not opinion-oriented.
Fred and Brian are afraid of public debate. Actually, Fred does have the courage to show up at the occasional town hall meeting and ask questions of the mayor and his staff. He also has the courage to confront me and others here.
You want to meet a first class coward? Try to find Brian Wilson. He does not appear in public because he's afraid to have his views challenged. Listen to what happens to callers who start to disagree with him. He would never venture onto a blog for fear of being intellectually overmatched.
Listeners are figuring it out. Both Brian and Fred have trended downward in the Arbitron ratings. Unfortunately, Andy Stuart gave Brian big money and has to sink or swim with him. Unfortunately for Andy, it is the consensus of Toledo media that he will eventually sink.
So?
We have the situation we have today. Doesn't bother me any. It would if I thought WSPD had a lot of listeners. The Arbitrons show otherwise. . .
Mr. Schwartz - I too am very familiar with the public records act and the cost of documents. You are not allowed to charge up to $.25. You are allowed to charge your cost for the materials to reproduce the document. You can not charge the cost of any labor just the material costs such as paper! TPS had been charging $.10 per copy but I continued to press them that this was way out of line considering the cost at places such as Kinko's. They have since changed their practice and now charge $.05 per copy.
There are court rulings on this and you should be able to find it in the manual you keep on the sunshine laws. This discussion is in my copy of Ohio's Open Government Resource Manual as produced by the Ohio Auditor's office. BTW - most state agencies including the Auditor's office charge $.05 per b/w copy. If any department is charging more that this, I suggest that they are not following the intention of this law.
Actually, courtesy is my hallmark. Michael Miller has kicked my butt a few times in editorials, but check out this line from his editorial this week: "Still, his challenge forced the color cubes of my intellect to click and readjust, and that contributes to my continued growth. I appreciate Schwartz taking the high road, as opposed to anonymous troublemakers who dwell in the swampy ick and uck of intellectual cowardice."
Check out this line from Jay Ott's blog and note that Jay Ott is not a friend of the administration: "Another interesting thing happened to me was Brian Schwartz came over to me and introduced himself, gave me his card and even offered to help me if I needed something. Courtesy and respect go a long way with me. I appreciated that regardless of any philosophical differences we might have."
Most reporters and news directors consider find me to be courteous and respectful no matter what questions are being asked. That is why I am successful at what I do.
I save my disrespect for just two people and one media outlet.
I don't know about Brian Schwartz, but I believe that Czarty doesn't feel we are very smart. We voted him back into office, didn't we? I've heard that Czarty doesn't think we are smart enough to get him recalled.
Darlene...Ms. Fisher...is this thing on?
--These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will; in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. -Thomas Paine
...but this wasn't a 'normal' request for information and it was prepared by an attorney - who should have known better...
But, knowing that a city attorney gave such advice in the past, I wouldn't want a member of the public to make a similar request (using FOIA) and have someone deny their request because FOIA doesn't apply to the City...especially if someone in government was looking for a way to deny releasing the documents/information. (it does happen, you know ... *smile*)
"That's news to me. I don't listen to Fred anymore, so I didn't know his lines were open."
And a comment; "listening to Fred this morning, and his phone lines were specifically open to you for the last hour or so."
So, you don't listen and then complain that a station does not take your calls based on the past and here is a chance to have your say and you criticize them and yet you say you don't listen.
And WSPD is the problem?
Call them and get on with it or move to something more productive.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
This is an amazing response from a public official!
Just because someone asks you questions instead of asking for documents you nitpick. Give him the documents that answer his questions - or try being polite and just answer the questions and then you don't have to copy the documents.
Whether you like Fred or WSPD or you think they have been fair or unfair, as a public official you need to set a better example - including your boss. Further, Fred and WSPD have the same right to this information as I do or any citizen. You can of course play these silly little games with semantics, obfuscation and the proverbial wild goose chase, but it just reflects poorly on you.
When Fred asks, he has the right to get his information just like any other citizen - not sooner - not later - but within the intent and spirit of the law.
Do your job, stop the games!
Brian, we have had courteous conversations (I appreciate that) and I imagine we will do so in the future. I wanted to offer constructive criticism that maybe you and the administration can do better. If the case is so open and closed, do you think it would not be in your advantage to take the high road, because everyone would see you are doing what is right? This is not a GM vs. Toyota competition here where you can go back and forth. This is a government and it needs to move beyond simple/petty competitions. A government has duties and responsibilities given by the people that must be adhered to regardless of what other issues surround a situation. A judge must still follow the law regardless of the personal opinion he/she may have of a defendant and this is similar to what every governmental representative must do. I want to offer this constructive criticism as a way to improve what is going on.
"Check out this line from Jay Ott's blog and note that Jay Ott is not a friend of the administration."
A citizen expresses an opinion and he or she is labeled not a friend of the administration, sorta like you are with us or against us.
There is an in between and actions like lack of response from inquiries to department heads and staff add to the frustration.
Or is it just that opinions are not welcome if they are not perceived as positive to the administration, which ever is in office.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
What is written in my book is "May charge appropriate copying and postage fees, if applicable." An exact amount is not denoted. I have a 2006 version. The Sunshine Law will be revised in 2007, so perhaps they will clarify the issue then.
The city of Toledo charges $.25 a page.
It won't happen if they ask me.
It is absurd to expect a member of the public to know which law to cite. Someone comes in and says they want to see a document or get copies of a document, I don't ask their name, I don't ask what they want it for, I don't ask them to put the request in writing. If I can supply it on the spot, I do. If not, I ask for a reasonable amount of time.
Despite the claims of some entertainers on some radio stations, I am not an enemy of the 1st amendment and especially the disclosure of information.
Or would he be called to task for "entertaining" himself listening to this program. You can't have it both ways: either he is doing his job (public information) or he isn't. I am sure someone on this forum would (or will) take him to task for responding to these comments.
Should he have his radio on all the time this program is on? Should he postpone any scheduled meetings, or events he is supposed to attend so that he can wait for the next
Old South End Broadway
I refer back again to that Michael Miller column in the current Free Press. When I read it, I wanted to hug the guy and call him "brother". I, too, am too prone to lashing out at those who attack me. Michael calls it being "street."
Perhaps you're right, Chris. Perhaps I should just do what Michael did -- say I'm sorry to those who had to read it while decrying those who started it. But the situation is too far gone between the administration and WSPD's entertainment department. Their reporters are first class and are always treated with respect.
A person doesn't have to be a friend of the administration for me to treat them with respect and courtesy. I always start at courtesy with a relationship and go from there.
...my 2006 copy says the following: (bolding done by me)
IV. ESTABLISHING WRITTEN RECORD AND DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT
GUIDELINES
In order to establish and maintain trust with the citizens we serve, we should establish written policies that control the management of the records and documents under our control. These controls must provide the public access to your public records. Whether dealing with the news media, business leaders or local citizens, public officials who are trusted with maintaining records must not prevent lawful access to them.
These guidelines should define your normal business hours when records are available for inspection and to how to obtain copies, copying fees, common records that are NOT subject to public inspection, and the manner in which your agency redacts restricted information from records before their release to the public.
The guidelines should explain why certain information is allowed to be obscured or erased from a public record. A complete explanation may prevent unnecessary legal fees and problems. When restricting access to some information contained within a record, the requesting person should be informed that this was undertaken in accordance with either state or federal law.
A requester should never be left to believe that they are being denied access to information for some personal reasons. A complete records and document management program must provide an explanation of this process.
Upon request, a person responsible for records management shall make copies available at cost, within a reasonable period of time. In order to facilitate broader access to public records, government units shall maintain their records in such a manner that they can be made available for inspection in accordance with this division.
It does not cost $.25 to make a copy.
..section on the actual law - page 11 of the handbook:
How much can a public office charge for copies of records?
A public office is limited in the amount it can charge for copies of public records — it may only charge its actual cost of producing the copy,68 unless the cost is otherwise set by statute.69 For instance, the cost for copies of 8.5 x 11 inch, single-sided public records at the Attorney General's Office is five cents per page.
When records are stored, produced, organized or compiled in an enhanced or "value-added" format, the copying charge is the actual cost of copying the records in the format that they exist. A public office cannot include a fee to defray the cost of producing the records into the enhanced format.
Employee time may not be calculated into the charge for copying a public record.71 Specific statutory authority to charge a set fee for certified copies of a public record does not mean the same fee may be charged for uncertified copies of the same record. So, if the requester does not request a certified copy, the fee charged must be "at cost.‚"72
(the numbers are references to footnotes which detail corresponding court cases to support the statement in the handbook.)
To keep the lawyers happy, I must qualify my statement by saying that there are some documents that are protected from Ohio's Sunshine Law. Among them are attorney-client privilege and attorney work products.
At the Port Authority, 4582.091 of the ORC allows you to protect documents that contain the financial information and/or trade secrets of private companies. I think that should be extended to county and municipal economic development departments too.
Ignore the comments from the radio station and get on with the business at hand.
But, no he keeps responding to the comments.
Sorta like the bass biting on the lure cast into the pond or swamp if you will.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
Just be a bigger man - I don't know you and have never spoken to you. I probably will someday as I have some issues I would like info on regarding city operations. However, what I read here gives me an impression of you that is not what you apparently want me to think. I've had some rotten stuff said about me publicly and privately because I am willing to speak out and challenge government institutions, political leaders regardless of race, party, etc. You just have to let some stuff roll off your back - like water off a duck.
You want us to have a different opinion? Then I would suggest you change the way you respond. You don't need to say the things you do about Fred, Brian and WSPD in the way you do to get your point across.
Take the high road it's easier in the long run - IMHO.
Carty might want to put a few people on the payroll to make copies so the rest of us don't have to stand around waiting to do business. I certainly do appreciate seeing my tax dollars spent so wisely ("at cost"). And I love the idea that while someone is back searching for documents, and making copies my heels are cooling waiting for this. Yes, sir, I love the fact that staff will be tied up with this chore, and I get to pay additional taxes because they aren't supposed to charge $.25.
Old South End Broadway
Maggie,
You're probably right. But the Law Department says that is what we charge. I don't set the price.
Never, ever, would I deny someone documents based on my personal feelings about them.
appear that I was correct - maybe that is why TPS changed their charge - maybe they have had enough lawsuits (probably not) It is in my manual as printed above - that is why I challenge those that charge more for records. There are some exceptions like court transcripts, but the city and its law director are wrong to charge $.25.
There are court rulings cited to support the information in the manual.
Brian - this cost can not be justified! I suggest you ask the law director to review the charge in light of our discussion.
10 cents a copy (if you have it on your card); otherwise it is a quarter, I believe. I guess I'm getting ripped off there.
Maybe I could talk them into letting me take the documents to a city office where I can get them to copy for 5 cents each. Hell, the library staff doesn't even help you. Save me a bundle, and ensure that city employees have work.
Old South End Broadway
For the rest, whom may be interested;
http://www.ag.state.oh.us/legal/pubs/2006_sunshine_law_book.pdf
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
You are such a liar.
SFlagg,
I will do that.
...you're comparing apples to oranges. The Library isn't a government office covered under the Ohio Public Records law. If you don't like the law, talk to your legislators about it - they alone have the power to change it.
about something that when I think about it I prefer. I like the "freedom of information" (even if it costs a little more in terms of taxes or inconvenience). I guess I should think my lucky stars that we don't have a "libertarian" republic where everything would "pay for itself". Ths way allows even the most disadvantaged among us to get the information we seek without bankrupting ourselves. Hopefully, the city will begin to initiate a 5 cent copying fee, and we'll see if we need more employees to deal with it.
Old South End Broadway
Page 10 of the Sunshine Booklet, the electronic version has this;
D. DEFINITION OF A
...but I don't think a library qualifies as a public office in that it doesn't exercise any function of government.
Now...if you went to the library and asked them for a copy of their budget, they might have to follow the public records law for providing the budget and be subject to the 'copy' costs...as they are funded by state and local tax dollars...
But, if you go in and use their copy machine to make copies of whatever, I believe they can charge whatever amount they think they can reasonably get...
see the difference?
I was referring to the need of libraries to follow the sunshine law not the cost of copies.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
...didn't understand your point....guess I was confused because you posted in reply to the comments about copies...
The chronology of posts is sometimes confusing.
No bother.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog