On Tuesday, Nov. 13th., Toledo City Council voted 10 to 2 in favor of establishing a registry for "domestic partners." This would allow gay and lesbian partners to receive benefits hitherto enjoyed only by married couples. This would permit non-Toledoans from any other community or state to come here and be registered as domestic partners. Imagine the cost to the taxpayers for verification of partners' status, documentation, filling, record keeping, etc. In addition, it is another step toward the erosion of traditional marriage (man and woman) which is the building block of our society.
The mayor has 8 days left to decide whether or not to sign this legislation. If you are angered at the quiet, behind-the-scenes mischief homosexual activists and our city council have created, at what is sure to be great cost to us as tax payers, please phone the mayor's office at 419-245-1001 and weigh in on this important matter today.
One more thing. The two council members who voted against this legislation were Mr. Ludeman and Mr. Birmingham. If you are in the district of one of the other council members, call them and let them know of your displeasure.
Thanks!
...the legislation on the registry grants no rights to benefits. In fact, most companies that do offer benefits to 'domestic partners,' for both same and opposite sex couples, usually use their own internal processes for verification - not a city registry.
They didn't address, as part of the registration, any type of verification. I'm speculating that there will be none other than the individuals' statement of such...
--the erosion of traditional marriage (man and woman) which is the building block of our society.--
How does the existence of people who are gay erode our countries building blocks?? Are they going to go on conversion sprees that try to convert people to "their" lifestyle?
Is it a choice? Any scientific proof yet that it is not just the way some people are "wired"?
C'mon already. I don't know that I have an opinion on whether or not a city should be doing this type of work, but I would expect Americans to really sit back and think about whether or not gay people are an issue that needs all of this attention. As far as I know, homosexuality is not contagious and most gay people will tell you that they aren't trying to convert people, but they want to live how they feel most comfortable.
Leave them be already.
This would allow gay and lesbian partners to receive benefits hitherto enjoyed only by married couples.
wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong
Are you ignorant, dumb or a just the run of the mill homophobic bigot?
... that may have changed. In that statistic it was determined that 50% of the married couples in Lucas County would seek divorce during the life of their marriage. I would say the "erosion of traditional marriage" is already well on its way in this county. I doubt the "gay" population (which I understand is about 10% of the total population) will add more "stress" to the "erosion of traditional marriage". I think that "nailing" that hottie that is working on the assembly line with you probably contributes more to that "erosion".
Old South End Broadway
So then actually it just sounds like an anti-gay rant by bgguard
This would allow gay and lesbian partners to receive benefits hitherto enjoyed only by married couples
can you give a couple fer'instances?
Get back to the top 3 Wildly Important Goals to fix this City. This ain't one of them.
We don't have more important things to worry about other than who is sleeping with whom and who's living with what? How about the economy, stupid? How about thousands of lives being snuffed out in an aggressive war? I don't like chewing gum -especially on the sole of my shoe- but I am not going to start a crusade against gum-chewers. Get your priorities straight, bgguard.
a "former wife", two step children, and a bastard somewhere. And somehow things just keep puttering along. Ain't it amazing how resilient human beings are. I can't imagine gays screwing up any worse.
Old South End Broadway
do not sign domestic partnership registry.
Thank You.
Long live Fathers and Mothers.
--the erosion of traditional marriage (man and woman) which is the building block of our society.--
While I haven't done a study or poll on this, it'd be my guess (from observation throughout my life), that there enough screwed up hetero marriages (cheating, abuse, indifference, together due to habit, together because it's financially agreeable - which is prostitution in a sense, etc.) - that I think hetero's are eroding marriage pretty well on their own. I fail to see how anything having to do with gays would have any effect on hetero marriages. I do not believe homosexuality is a choise - the scientific concensus is that you are born gay, or not - that by age 5 your sexual identity is formed (on it's own - without influence from parents or toy choise). I'm not religious at all, but if I were, I'd find it an abomination that any God would decree that homosexuality is a sin & evil. And anybody who believes God would believe that, should be ashamed, and take the time to look up famous gays throughout history (would they consider Michaelangelo or Eleanor Roosevelt to be an abomination against God?). I guess if I were religious, and believed that God made us all, and does not make junk, then I'd have to also believe that he also made homosexuals - and if you call homosexuals evil & immoral, then you are also saying that God screwed up, and you are being intolerant of a creation of God - and to that, I'd say "What arrogance!". But I am not religious (save your scriptures, I've heard them), and I find this mindset simply bigoted & homophobic, and I fear for your children (& grandchildren, & nieces & nephews, etc.), because you are teaching hate. And, because there are more gays in this world than you apparently realize, and you may learn one of your children (et al) are gay - and what will you say to that child when you learn that? I would hope you wouldn't rush them off to be "cured", or make them feel 'less' or evil. I would hope that you don't find your child committed suicide or turned to drugs because that was easier to face, than facing you. And lastly - I don't claim to know a lot of homosexual couples, but those I know about, tend to be good relationships, and they tend to treat each other better than most heterosexual couples do. Just for kicks, try watching "The Amazing Race" sometime, and pay attention to how the straight & gay couples treat each other. More often than not, it is the hetero couples that are verbally abusive, abrupt, rude to their mate. The gay couples tend to be more patient & kind to each other. And, take a stroll through bars & strip clubs (average customer is a married 40 - 50 yr old with kids) on a weekend - pay attention to how many married people are trying to hook up - so much for traditional values.
The only problem I have with this is it only helps homosexual couples.
I posted this in the other thread as well.
If it were something that could aid not only homosexuals but untraditional families as well then that's something we all can get behind because it benefits all aspects of our society.
MikeyA
MikeyA
Mikey, by my reading of "domestic partners", it doesn't matter what sex the couple is. Could be male/male, male/female, or female/female. "Domestic" means people living in a DOMUS, Latin for household.
or a female, and two or more males. Or two males and two females, or three males and three females. Could make for some interesting "last wills and testaments". Lots of tax preparation would be needed. A lawyer's dream. A government's nightmare.
Old South End Broadway
...isn't "Toledo almost like heaven"?
Old South End Broadway
TOLEDO GAY PRIDE.........
.........................Taking the "GL" out of GLASS City!!
I predict next legistlation for the city is to ban war, end global warming, impeach Bush, save polar bears, ban drilling, ban toys from China, and every thing else not related specifically to fixing Toledo!
Paint the Twine ball Pink...Klinger would be proud!
... this link to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_La..., brings up a group that would be interested in this legislation. I've always felt the government should be "hands off" in this area. It makes no sense to me that we persecute polygamists (who usually try to take care of their off-spring), and allow "serial monogramy" to flourish. Half our kids are the product of "broken homes". If polygamy was allowed, and divorce impeded, maybe men wouldn't be so quick to dump one wife for another. And we wouldn't have the kids longing for the absent parent, or pitting one against another when "visits" alternate.
Old South End Broadway
I am convinced that the Christian faith calls me to be kind and loving toward homosexuals yet my personal responsibility toward individual homosexuals must not keep me from declaring this behavior sinful and standing against it. The immediate charge against Christians regarding our Biblical position is that we are hateful, bigoted and judgmental. The charge that we are making a judgment I cannot deny this we are commanded to do by Jesus Himself (though I view this as something different than being
I said "NO scripture quoting". And yet, kooz did. We've all heard it, kooz. And to this statement you made: "Without me uttering a word as a Christian is it not evident that homosexuality is sinful and wrong? Does not the fact that it leads to disease and death reveal something about the nature of this behavior? When a man and woman join together in marriage and commit themselves to one another exclusively, we do not see disease and death in fact we see the creation of new life. When two men or two women have sex we do see disease and death,
kooz - Can you explain why it really disturbs you that a homosexual couple can have a long, loving, happy life together - as long, or longer than many marriages - and want benefits of being a committed couple? I can't imagine why you'd even care what they do behind bedroom door, and most gays aren't flaunting their gayness in garish ways (can't say the same for many hetero people). The way I see it, if they can tax smokers to pay for other people's health care (many illegals), while the smokers themselves often don't get similar health care benefits - then there's not a lot of difference to me. If it's not about health care benefits - then what? With the privacy laws now, they have no rights to even know the medical status of their hospitalized mate. Legally, they are screwed if there's no will in place - in all regards. I'm not real clear what all this would provide to gays, so I'm winging it here. But you seem just homophobic.
Starling...did you even read my comment? And you can't figure out why I think homosexuality is wrong? You must be deliberately choosing not to address the spiritual/Biblical teachings on this lifestyle. The quotes about homosexuality being a "degrading passion" and that the Bible says woman leaving their NATURAL use for a man and laying with a woman and a man LEAVING his NATURAL use for a woman to lay with other men, are not MY quotes. They were written by the Apostles who were under the direct teachings of Jesus.
You didn't even address anything I said. Other than to use the old stand-by that I must be a bigot. If you are going to defend subjects like homosexuality which the Bible is opposed to, at least have the courage to come right out and say the Bible is wrong. Say it, I'll help you...T-H-E... B-I-B-L-E...I-S....W-R-O-N-G...And, it doesn't matter if half of the heterosexual marriages don't work out. That is irrelevent. God/The Bible ordained marriage as between a man and woman. The bible says, "A man must leave his mother and father and cleave to his WIFE." "A man must love his WIFE as Christ loved the church." Do you see a pattern or do you still CHOOSE to believe what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and that you accomplished something for the cause of tolerance?
Ultimately, its not me you have the problem with. You have a problem with what the Bible says about homosexuality. At least admit that.
Brian in FL calls it muckety muck. Actually it was direct quotes from the Bible. The apostle Paul to be exact. But, thats about what Americans think of the Bible anymore isn't it? Just muckety muck.
Since this discussion concerned government and homosexuality...I leave you with a quote from our First President George Washington. A far cry from how Americans view the Bible today. And then we somehow can figure out why our country is in the sad state its in.
kooz - Yes, I did address your scriptures (and I agree with briano on this) - as I stated, I believe the Bible is a story, or historical account, written by MAN (not God or Jesus), and has been translated & re-translated so many times - for every scripture you quote, there's one that will conflict with it. I believe it was written in the best of intentions - but I am not religious, I do not believe in religion, God, heaven & hell, or that the Bible is law. In fact, it's not only athiests who disagree with the Bible (I heard on a Jewish religion program on the radio recently, where they claimed that any religion that believes Jesus is the savior, is misinformed & wrong.) There are a lot of religious beliefs out there - not all conform to Christianity. By your last post, you presume to say that most (or all) women in the world are sinning & will go straight to hell (and not speak back to men). If you really believe that, then you're somebody to be feared (God help your wife). If you do NOT believe that, then it's a concession that you also believe that not every scripture is to be taken at it's word. One way or another - you can't have it both ways. But because I don't have such beliefs, and believe that man creates his own destiny, and when we're dead, we're dust no matter how God fearing you were - I'm not really worried about pissing off God. You can't force your brain to believe something just because some Bible thumper says it's true - no more than I could believe that grass is orange & cats can fly - just because you quoted scripture to me that said so. I was told by a very religious friend, that God won't send a child (or savage, or anybody) to hell due to ignorance of his existence or a belief in the Bible, God & Jesus. Her logic was that because these people were ignorant, they couldn't be judged. Well, I'm not ignorant - but I was not raised religous. I've studied it a lot, read a lot, and had a lot of deep conversations with very religous people - and yet, my brain still can't wrap itself around all of it & call it the truth, no more than I can believe in the tooth fairy. Too many conflictions. My ex-husband found God & insists that dinosaurs & carbon dating were manufactured, and didn't or don't exist - because they conflict with his timeline of the Bible. I was raised with more scientific findings than that (and a son who's a huge history buff & dino expert). My oldest son also used to want to be a minister (didnt get it from me), and has read the Bible in it's entirety 11 times (with highlighters) - but is now an athiest (no help from me). So we've had a LOT of these conversations - and I still can't wrap my brain around the whole heaven & hell, and a powerful being that watches everything we all do, and punishes or rewards them with a glorious afterlife in heaven, or burning fires & torments of hell (sounds like Santa Clause). My old friend who's very religious believed the Rapture was coming years back - really believed it - packed her stuff up & all. I called her & told her that I was going to call her the next day at 1 pm (after the Rapture), and asked her if nobody answered, could I presume she'd gone to the great beyond or was just out shopping. I did kind of wonder why these Rapture believers cared so much about getting rid of their 'stuff', when material things weren't supposed to matter anyway. Johovah's Witnesses believe that a set number of people will go to Heaven - and by gosh, they're going to be among that number because they went door to door witnessing. (what arrogance). Muslims believe we're all going to Hell, unless you subscribe to the Islamic beliefs & follow archaic laws - so that'd also include you, kooz & handbanana - according to Muslims, you aren't going to Heaven. Religion is one of the biggest hoaxes in history - it is the key way to hold power over the masses. Global Warming is the next biggest hoax.
Are you saying you have a Bible verse you can quote that endorses homosexuality?
If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.
I often wonder why it matters what someone else is doing if it doesn't negatively impact anyone else. But I do understand how people are. I remember in 1978 an African American friend of mine bought a 1978 Monte Carlo. He drove the car from Pittsburgh where he was living to visit family and friends in Toledo. When he came to visit me I introduced him to my next door neighbor who was at my place watching football games. After my fiend from Pittsburgh left, my next neighbor became visibly upset and said, "How do people like that deserve a new car?"
Sounds as if some people have this same type of attitude toward people with alternative lifestyles.
This link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy, looks at polygamy. About halfway through the article is a discussion of the various religious beliefs, and polygamy. What someone pointed out is that there have been Christians who have been quite accepting of polygamy. Now I know that one of the requirements of a "bishop" in the New Testament is that he be the "husband of one wife", but does this extend to everyone who claims Christianity? In the article it is pointed out that Christianity was influenced by the Roman culture which wasn't accepting of polygmay (but, interestingly, very accepting of adultery, so maybe that is why people in our culture can remarry, and still consider themselves "Christian"). Any comments on this?
Old South End Broadway
I quote "Some fifteen years earlier, in a letter to the Saxon Chancellor Gregor Br
Old South End Broadway
Katie - no, I can't personally quote a scripture that promotes homosexuality - not cause it's not there, but because I'm not schooled enough in Bible scripture (and don't have the time to research it - don't care enough to do so either). I was told by my old, deeply religous friend long ago, that usually, for every scripture somebody can quote, there's another one that will contradict it - it's all in translation or context. Whether that's true or not, I don't know (and don't care). Her family is very Baptist & claims it's evil to dance & listen to any music that is not Christian (the devil working through ya), or for women to wear pants. She was able to quote a scripture about the dancing part, and yes, I was able to find one that contradicted hers (thanks to the movie "Footloose"). My point was simply that while one religous sect claims one thing is a sin, others may not - and who's to say which religion is the 'right & correct' one? Seems very smug & self righteous to me. (I also know a woman who's religion forbids women to ever cut their hair - wow.) As for the comment that the Bible says women have to obey (or however it was stated) men - that sounds like an idea that is stuck in the Middle Ages, and I don't want anything to do with any religion that views women as less than men. And I still want an answer about what kooz will SAY to his child or grandchild, if they turn out to be gay. (funny how nobody wants to speak out on that one.) Odds are very good that every family has at least one gay person - somewhere, not far up the family tree. Be very careful about judging people too harshly when you haven't walked in their shoes - it'd be a terrible thing for a child to know that their parents are disqusted with the person they are, so disqusted, they can't even admit it.
Having said all this - my main point, was simple wondering why on earth anybody cares what anybody else does behind closed doors, and HOW does homosexuality damage the 'tradition' of marriage? No answers yet (at least any that make sense). I would think that if any judging is to be done, it'd be done by whatever God you worship, and not by the masses - and it sounds like a lot of judging going on here. Personally, I am not gay, and the idea turns me off - but it's not my place to judge somebody else, especially for things they have no physical control over. There's a LOT of gay men who are married to straight women - for show. I guess kooz is saying that a gay man is better off living his life in a lie to please society, then to own up to who he really is.
I suggest you watch Zeitgeist Part ONE kooz & handbanana - it's a facinating history about religion, and it's a FREE viewing online (at zeitgeistthemovie.com). You can even skip Part 2 & 3 (although, well worth the watch & eye opening). Until you do, I really don't have anymore to say. It's kind of a moot point with me - kooz believes the Bible is right, no matter what. I don't ascribe to the Bible or religion. But I do know hate & homophobia when I see it. And something tells me that if there IS a God, he'd be very disappointed in how some of his people take it upon themselves to judge his creations. Isn't God supposed to love everybody? (such hypocrites).
Are there any non-religious reasons to disapprove of other people's sexual preferences?
Personal discomfort with the knowledge that someone may do or engage in something they may not like.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
And, are people who are so against gays, equally turned off by watching two women go at it? That seems to be a big male fantasy, watching two women get it on. My guess is that there's many anti gay, religious men out there who do get turned on with this, whether they admit it or not. (And oddly, there doesn't seem to be any group, except perhaps gay males, that get into watching two men get it on. Women don't seem to get a thrill out of that.)
Dumbest gay post ever. What's the gay population in Toledo? I'm guessing less than 1%. As far as I'm concerned the city probably has more important issues. Personally, I'm simply tired of every demographic claiming victimhood and trying to influence other demographics.
Let each enjoy themselves and move on with life. If your life is so pathetic that you have to blame others for your own problems, then its time to look in the mirror.
Eventually we all grow up.
brass - you're right.
Please explain to me why this legislation is so important to members of the homosexual community. Thanks for your time.
Thanks for your thoughtful, measured input to this discussion.
Actually Maggie, that's not true that "most companies" offer domestic partner benefits.
I do benefits consulting for employers all over the country and can tell you that the vast majority of employers do not offer domestic partner benefits.
There may be more employers these days offering benefits to domestic partners than there were in years past, but its still not anywhere close to approaching that "most" employers offer them.
If that is true then so many more people can benefit. That would be nobel.
From every thread I've seen on this and every article I read they've only discussed homosexual couples. I have no problem if this is extended to homosexuals but while leaving everyone else behind. If we are going to treat everyone equally then by God let's treat them equally.
MikeyA
MikeyA
Funny, but a couple is two and a partner is also two. However, the plural "partners" could open the door to four, six, eight, who do you appreciate.
Brilliant! You've got it, OldSouth. This is how we jumpstart Toledo. We become the gay-partner capital of America. Forget about gambling and all that stuff. We become the GAY CAPITAL of America. Damn, we've gotta do something to capitalize on this.
Then they are free to form a corporation.
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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt
There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at
Bullshit. I absolutely 100% think that heterosexual couples should not be able to manipulate the system that way.
Almost every day (in the course of my job) I have to talk to people who are trying to figure out how to manipulate everything and it drives me nuts.
"I need to get on the benefit plan, but we can't get married because then I'd lose my alimony/welfare from the state/whatever other cockamamie excuse." Look honey...if you want the perks that come with being married, then you need to accept that you'll stop receiving the perks that you got when you were unmarried (fat alimony check, etc.) Either you're married or you're not - you can't have it both ways.
Either stay single and keep milking whoever for your extra money, or get married and get the benefits. Its that simple. Grrr.
Don't even get me started on the people who file taxes as "single" even though they are legally married, then bitch because they aren't eligible for certain benefits that require you to file taxes as "married." Here's an idea...don't break the law and file single, just so that your wife who doesn't work can fraudulently obtain the Earned Income Tax Credit...even though your household income is $50-60K or more a year.
BTW - you seriously would not even believe the number of people who do that. I'd guess anywhere from 10-15% of the tax returns I see are fraudulently filed like that.
I could go on about the ways in which these couples try to manipulate everything from all angles, but I don't have time today. lol But I'm 100% against allowing heterosexual couples to register these "partnerships" so that they can find new ways to exploit the system.
(note - the above rant doesn't apply to homosexual couples, of course, since they *can't* get legally married. But there's nothing stoping a heterosexual couple.)
You're welcome to be against it but that doesn't give you the right to make choices for them or deny them rights. Christianity is not the only religon in this country.
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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!
_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".
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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'
Are you trying to piss off God? Please, quiet down and remain silent, otherwise you're sinning in the eyes of God according to Timothy 2:11-12:
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
And I better not catch you wearing pants. I believe God was very clear in Deuteronomy 22:5 when he decreed: "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman
There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at
Where you can pick and choose between which passages you follow. Therefore, I'm curious about your support of stoning of anyone who blasphemies the Lord? Do you sacrifice animals in the name of God?
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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt
There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at
...some people who are not religious could object based upon their own personal moral or social grounds - or because they don't think it's "right" for some reason ...
but that's a very interesting question, Chris...
Just following suit....
I said that most companies WHO DO OFFER such benefits have their own policy for determining eligibility...not a reliance upon a government list...
Please explain to me why this legislation is so important to members of the homosexual community. Thanks for your time.
Because an entire segment of our population is being denied basic rights, thats why.
There sure seems to be a movement to convince that there is one way to worship and follow, what with presidential candidates lining up for endorsements from religious groups and amendments being proposed to calm the followers...and so on.
And McCain feels that the country was based on one ideal and none others...
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
Oops...I think I was overtired when I read your post. Sorry. :)
that's okay, Sarah...happens sometimes.
:)
I support Gay Marriage.... if both chicks are hot! LOL j/k
MikeyA
MikeyA
This registry thing reminds me of some of the stings I've read about. The authorities would send out announcements to wanted felons that they had won a large sum of money which would be given to them at a banquet being held in their honor. When the felon showed up, the authorities arrested the felon.
Sign up and the people who want to do harm to people with alternative lifestyles don''t have to suspect who is gay or lesbian, they have the list.
I had the same thought kirk.