Issue 1 is the city 3/4 income tax renewal and Issue 7 is the TPS property tax renewal
By sflagg - Posted on February 22nd, 2008
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plan to (or already have) vote yes on one issue but no on another, how about telling us why you would vote for one levy but not another.
It is a waste of money. Until the school system can begin to weed out those who don't want to be there we will always have problems teaching those who remain and want to learn. As for the overpaid teachers I don't see any way around that because contracts have been signed. Judges and arbitrators will be bound by the terms of the contract.
I'm rather distressed by your comment "...weed out those who don't want to be there..."
Why would you blame kids? They are the victims here! At what age would you weed them out? What criteria would you use to weed them out? How would you deal with them as adults without a job, hope...?
Do we blame the kids for the parents they have? Did they have a choice? Do we blame the kids for the lousy teacher they may have? Or the fact their stomach is empty? Or they can't see the board because they need glasses (this actually happened to me)? And I could go on and on.....
Why are we even blaming kids? Oh, at some point when intervention does not work, we may have to say we tried and it did not take? But before we write them off, let's do a little preventative work and intervention.
Is this really a prevalent attitude with bloggers here, with citizens in Toledo, etc. If it is, then I want out.
I was raised by a single mom in the 50's and 60's. I was poor and without a father. Was that my fault? I had poor health for the first 4 or 5 years in school. I almost failed 3rd grade because I missed so many days. Was that my fault? I did not get the attention and supervision I should have. Was that my fault? I got into some trouble. Does that mean I should have been written off and when? I graduated HS with honors (I missed almost a month of school my sophomore year - not motivated, too easy), went to college - straight A's my last two years, went to graduate school got an MBA and graduated summa cum laude with a 4.0/4.0. I don't say that to brag, but just when would you have written me off?
Sorry but you got me going. I am sick of the blame that comes to children and in cases their parents. There are many factors in this "blame game" and who is going to judge when we should write someone off?
Do you think the system and teachers, the professionals, have some blame here? Public schools are supposed to educate everyone so that we have a citizenry that can participate in the economic and political processes of our country and world. When parents fail for whatever reason, don't we want to help the child? Does it not help society and at a lower cost to intervene early and often instead of paying for incarceration?
As to "overpaid teachers", I think good teachers are worth their weight in gold. But we do need ways to motivate every teacher to be a good teacher.
As to the contracts, they are being negotiated right now. A NO vote would tell all employees that times have changed. We need to go to a "thin contract" that deals with wages and benefits but allows the Board and consequently the community to be able to effect true reform. Current contractual language and the work rules basically allow the public service unions to "run our schools". We also need performance based pay - I'm willing to pay for results.
While it is likely we won't get all the changes we need, we get none if those public service unions think they can keep coming back to the public well but give us nothing in return.
OSEB, you hit my trigger. The problems are far more complex and require all of us to demand change.
Streve -While your fury is understandable, please be informed that the OldeSouthEndBirdy suffers from an ongoing case of Chronic Negativity, highlighted by bouts of Sour Attitude.
His mental malady is exacerbated by his refusal to stay on prescribed medication.
Take his negative commentary with the appropriate 'grain of salt'.
Even kids have the freedom to act rightly or wrongly. Kids are not automatons or empty receptacles into which knowledge and wisdom are poured. Kids have the free will to act or not to act, regardless of their upbringing and circumstances. I don't believe young people are blameless and without responsibility for which path they choose. They bear some responsibility for their actions. If they choose not to learn in school, all the brightest and best teachers and schools are not going to help them. But even in the most dismal schools and with the worst teachers, a person who truly wants to succeed will make it. Learning is something that occurs within the individual and it takes his desire for knowledge in order for learning to take place.
You are a good example of that, sflagg. In spite of your upbringing, you had the desire to overcome your background and make something of yourself. It took your desire to do that. Your choices as a youth made you the success you are today. When you were a kid, you accepted the responsibility for bettering yourself.
Don't give me that much credit - I had a few adults at the right times in my life including a grandmother that gave me "unconditional" support and a few good teachers and one great principal. There is where the values came that gave me the belief in myself and the desire to succeed.
I also attend a public school system that was pretty good and before a time when public service unions dictated the rules.
So are you telling me that elementary kids really understand all this - or even junior high. Perhaps when you get to high school I can buy it. And I don't mean to say that kids don't have free will, but it is certainly not tempered with experience, maturity and judgment - that is where good role models and education that develops critical thinking skills come in.
We had people do poorly when I went to St. John's Jesuit for High School, and people who dropped out, and people who smoked themselves retarded. Education is what you make of it, and kids certainly bear responsibility for their actions.
The other half, is parents. If your parents don't care you have homework to do as your kickin' it with your friends, then a Harvard grade education means squat.
Do we blame the kids for the parents they have?
No, but what makes it MY responsibility to pay for those parents mistakes with their kids?
Did they have a choice?
The parents had a choice. They could have aborted the kid before that kid started interfering with their social life and/or drug use. The students have a choice. They MUST take responsibility for their own actions because that is what they are supposed to do when they become adults. It is not "mommy" governments place to step in when someone fails.
Do we blame the kids for the lousy teacher they may have?
Hmmm, why not? You seem to be blaming the teachers for the lousy students that THOSE TEACHERS ARE FORCED BY LAW TO TOLORATE.
Or the fact their stomach is empty?
Agan, why are you trying to make it MY responsibility that their parents are total and absoloute failures? Does absolving the parents of any responsibility for their failures somehow translate into the state and the taxpayer stepping in to take over being mommy and daddy?
Or they can't see the board because they need glasses?
This one should REALLY tick you off. Was it the taxpayers responsibility to make sure you had glasses? Where were you parents? Did your parents FINALLY take responsibility for YOU and get you glasses? Or, once you discovered you could not see the board, did you take personal responsibility and ask to be moved closer to the front?
Or did you just wallow in your own pity party and wait for mommy government and the taxpayers to step in when YOUR parents failed you and YOU did not take the personal responsibility for yourself?
Conservative won't be happy till the US looks like Mexico where you have the rich and the poor and nothing in between.
What a sane, reasoned and rational response!
Apparently you don't even come close to understanding what I was trying to say or perhaps you simply did not comprehend what you read. Don't read into my comments what I did not say!
As a child I had no idea I needed glasses, but a teacher who was concerned about me and why I was having problems helped and what a difference it made! Actually my mother purchased my glasses once we knew I had a problem. And it was tough for her, but she did take responsibility - she worked all the time because of that responsibility!
"Or did you just wallow in your own pity party and wait for mommy government and the taxpayers to step in when YOUR parents failed you and YOU did not take the personal responsibility for yourself?" Do you know how cruel this sounds - like I even knew as a child that "mommy government" would step in.
And I never implied that government should take the role of the parent, but when a parent is unable to help the child is it the child's fault. Certainly they could not abort themselves.
Frankly it is always cheaper to intervene than pay for incarceration - but hey it's your dollar too when we ship them off to prison or perhaps you would prefer to just execute them and move on.
Perhaps the best response to your rant is a quote I ran across a while ago.
A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices.-William James
... on Eye on Toledo, who said that Toledo could go into Receivership of the 3/4% is not renewed.
WELL GOOD. In Receivership, we can get all those cronies thrown out of their do-nothing jobs. Spending in Toledo is completely out of control. BRING ON THE RECEIVER.
The same sock puppet said that Toledo would "shut down". No, Mr Puppet ... only the useless portions of Toledo's so-called government would. I look forward to the day when whole floors of One Government Center are opened up to private commercial rents, as a result of reforming Toledo and Lucas County governments along their CONSTITUTIONAL lines (which are necessarily minimal).
Fuck all you Socialists. If we conservatives won't getcha, then the collapsing economy will getcha.
That is the best comment I have read in a long time.
Do you need any Swampbubbles ????
I'll give you a fitty if you need 'em.
That is the best comment I have read in a long time.
Do you need any Swampbubbles ????
I'll give you a fitty if you need 'em.
....an unfair burden put on them to teach kids who in many cases could care less about school then all the children will suffer. The Coalition's idea to vote agains the Levy is a good one that plays right to those of us who are tired of paying taxes. Why do you assume that those of us who vote agains the levy the first time will vote for it the second time? We're not puppets on a string. You want to hold the teaching profession accountable, but what about parents and students? You chose to overcome your circumstances. And you probably would have been written off under a system such as you propose for our schools. You are expecting all the teachers to fit into a neat box. Well you will begin to see that box emptying because what is the motivation to teach when you have a group of parents holding teachers to a standard they can't temselves reach. When the mass exodus begins by teachers from TPS then accept the outcome.
Not really what I said - under a system as you proposed I would have been written off!!
I am not assuming nor am I asking anyone to vote for the levy a second time. I simply stated that if the school system would reach certain benchmarks involving reform I would consider supporting the renewal levy. If you have reasons that prohibit you from voting for the levy, then we would have to agree to disagree. Your No vote now just might help a lot of kids - and then again maybe not. A crystal ball I do not have.
However, I don't necessarily think I would agree to the whole amount. One of the benchmarks would be a check under the financial hood.
Now I firmly believe that we must hold or cut taxes in Toledo. I have said as much on this blog and in other places. We can't be competitive with the suburbs when our income tax rate is the highest in the area and our property tax rates are higher than any community except Ottawa Hills.
When do you write a kid off? In elementary school, junior high, high school. And just because I want to find ways (does not need to be taxpayer dollars) to help kids who have not been dealt the best hand does not mean I think disruptive kids should be in the class room. And there are many reasons kids are disruptive - finding out why is a big part of the solution.
An adult influence at the right times in a kid's life can have a lasting impact. It did for me and I have seen it with other kids. For years I was a big brother - helped two young men get through college - an adult influence at the right time can last a life time. I don't want to write any kid off!
As to teachers leaving, with union rules regarding pay and seniority in all systems in Ohio it just does not pay for teachers to leave a system. If a teacher with 15 years seniority would want to leave Toledo for say Sylvania, they would not get full credit for seniority and under the current pay system would actually start at a lower wage. TPS only allows 10 years credit max for time outside of TPS.
Frankly, the problems in Toledo will just keep moving outward - you can run but you will never be able to hide.
....a vested economic interest in the system as it is while we attempt to change that system? Look, I'm not a teacher, but it would stand to reason that you can either accept a lower wage in a school system where the students are the "picks of the litter" (private and parochial schools), or receive a higher wage by assuming the burden of teaching the kids that can't get into private or parochial schools. The kids who are often disruptive, who are just marking time, who aren't supposed to be left behind even if they don't want to learn. And does the burden for getting knowlege in this kid fall on the parents? No-o-o! The teacher is totally responsible for the failings of this generation. So not only do they receive no respect, now they should accept less pay for the burden of trying to impart knowledge to these children. I like the idea of less taxes, but I don''t think that the teachers are so charitable. Perhaps we can take advantage of the older ones who have a vested interest in the retirement system, but I think the younger ones will see where our school system is headed and get out while the getting's good.
This is a bit more complex than just about disruptive kids. As to the costs and finances, I don't have time to explain the finances of TPS so you understand the financial implications. But you can go to TPSINFO.COM and start reading through the materials. If you have questions, ask me.
I think you tend toward hyperbole and focus on the tree instead of the forest. In a vacuum you have some valid points. And I never ever implied, but you seem to want to put words into my mouth, that the failings of a generation are the responsibility of teachers. I am on record in many articles and posts that the blame is collective. I could make a list for every party.
Give us your opinions and stop telling me what I was saying. Read my comments and tell me where I blamed teachers for the failings of a generation.
I'm done.
"Now I firmly believe that we must hold or cut taxes in Toledo. I have said as much on this blog and in other places. We can't be competitive with the suburbs when our income tax rate is the highest in the area and our property tax rates are higher than any community except Ottawa Hills."
Just curious though, are you saying that Toledo pays higher taxes period as well than any other city or township in the area? More than Sylvania? More than Perrysburg?
This is my (Bishop Stephen Ward's) remedy for some of the issues within TPS
Anti Violence/Drug Committee
Appointed by and advisory to TPS Board. The committee is composed of school personnel, county/city representatives from law enforcement, rehabilitation agencies, post secondary educational institutions and local health agencies. The purpose of the committee is to coordinate services to area students and families in the prevention of illegal chemical use and support in resolving conflict in non-violent ways.
District Media Advisory Committee
Appointed by and advisory to TPS Board. This committee is made up of approximately 20 people including school board members, administrators, media specialists, district media staff, teachers, students, parents and community members. The major responsibilities of the committee include: long-range planning and goals, setting the media/technology department's yearly objectives, creating budgeting formulas and procedures, and reviewing building technology plans and policies.
Gifted and Talented Committee
Appointed by and advisory to TPS Board. This committee's tasks include: Advocate the needs of gifted students. Design gifted identification policy and procedures. Define gifted program expectations. Articulate gifted education criteria.
Transportation Committee
Appointed by and advisory to TPS Board. Committee purposes: Review and recommend changes/additions to Transportation Policies. Review school bus curriculum and school bus safety procedures relating to the transportation of students. Review discipline procedures and guidelines for students on school buses or at bus stops. Develop budget for the expenditure of student transportation safety revenue. Review requests for school starting time/dismissal changes. Review requests for additional transportation services. Review long-range transportation plans.
Legislative Committee
Appointed by and advisory to TPS Board. Committee purposes: Annually develop a legislative agenda relating to issues affecting Toledo Public Schools. Communicate legislative platform to area legislators, community, and staff. Monitor legislative information during the legislative session. Testify before the Legislature on legislative platform proposals. Annually host a meeting with area legislators.
Nutrition Advisory Committee
Toledo Public Schools' Nutrition Advisory Committee provides advice to the Food Service Director about the creation of nutrition guidelines and procedures for the selection of foods and beverages served to students in order to ensure that food and beverage choices are consistent with current dietary guidelines. This committee also provides advice on ways to encourage healthy eating by students; and on information to communicate to parents/guardians to support a healthy diet and physical activity for children outside of the school day.
The following committees are appointed by each school principal and typically meet three to four times each year to be determined at the beginning of each school year:
Elementary & Middle School
Student Advisory Committee Appointed by Elementary & Middle School Principal's, advisory to the TPS Board. Committee members meet with TPS Board members to provide input and feedback on issues that affect Toledo Public Schools' Middle School Students.
High School Advisory Committee
Appointed by High School Principal's, advisory to the TPS Board. Committee members meet with TPS Board members to provide input and feedback on issues that affect Toledo Public Schools' High School Students.
All Advisory Committees should be of Equal representation of gender and race. In addition there should also be included at least 3 TPS High School students on each committee to serve as advisors, and give input from the student body.
For the most part. The only addition I would make is that on each committee you would have parents and community members, especially on the Anti Violence/ Drug Committee. As we all know the people that you have designated to be on this committee have a self interest, which would be a job. In other words retaining a job at the expense of children without any safe guards (parents/community members) would be the order of the day.
For instance, what incentive would there be to eliminate your job by doing a good job at your job? What incentive would a school resource officer (Police) have, to stop arresting children if a part of his job is to arrest children? A school resource officer (police) does not add to the school educational environment. Except for creating jobs (jailers, probation officers, administrators, etc.) for the juvenile detention system which eventually provides jobs for the prison system, and providing a opening for the cradle to the prison pipeline, a school resource officer would not have a job. It is a self perpetuating circle.
However, if parents and community advocates were involved in this committee they would have a different view and perspective as to how drug use and violence could be prevented and what holistic interventions could be used, after all they are the parents and the village of the children affected by these insidious maladies. The first line of defense is always the parent. Contrary to what you may read on this site, parents are not included in anything TPS.
Parents back in the schools, police out! The only way that will happen is if the TFT contract is revisited and teachers give back some power to the parents. First to be eliminated should be Article XIII G. of the TFT Contract, Which states, “Visitors to the schools will be encouraged through existing Board policy. Multiple visitations that reasonably can be construed as harassment of teachers shall be discouraged through the use of a warning and, if necessary, use of the Safe Schools Ordinance. Visitations shall be arrived at cooperatively with the teacher.”
There is a better way to communicate with parents than through a Safe School Ordinance