ECONOMIC LOSSES DUE TO SMOKING BANS IN CALIFORNIA AND OTHER STATES

Ban Damage

http://kuneman.smokersclub.com/economic.html

ECONOMIC LOSSES DUE TO SMOKING BANS IN CALIFORNIA AND OTHER STATES
By David W. Kuneman and Michael J. McFadden

Background:

Many studies have been published purporting to prove smoking bans in bars and restaurants are either good or neutral for business, and conflicting studies have also been published purporting to prove bans are bad for business. Scollo, Lal, Hyland and Glantz recently summarized many of these studies, concluding those which find no economic impact are published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature and funded by

No votes yet

Admittedly I'm feeling a bit snarky today, but between DarkSeid and Starling we have 6 posting in the last six days about smoking (that's just on this site, more on TT). I get it; I feel for you and your expensive addiction. I appreciate all the tax money the government generates from taxing your habit, but come on. If the worst thing going on in your life and in the world to you, is you not being able to smoke at bar, then you're pretty much living the American dream.

Maybe you could do a week in review of all the "why do they hate us smokers?" articles as one post per week. I understand that you feel under siege, but you lost the good fight. Time to move on.

For the record, I feel that private businesses should be able to do what they want to do. As a none smoker who frequents bars though, I haven't noticed any bars that are less crowded.

Why do I feel that I just took a bat to the bee hive?

I understand that it's tedious for a lot of you to see the smoker ban posts - but we do not post them to annoy people, or because we're whining. (and for the record - my gripe has to do with the ban in restaurants, not bars, and yes, it has effected us a lot. Maybe like Paris Hilton all the smokers should get on prescription drugs that will help us through that horribly long wait for a waitress or the check - but for me, I prefer to not be medicated.) The reason we post these updates is to hopefully, educate the people (like Roberta De Bour) who clearly did not take the time (or don't) to do their own homework, & just blindly bought into the propaganda & promises that a ban would not hurt business. Since the ban, I've learned that most non-smokers or people who voted for this ban simply because they either 1) didn't care one way or another but wanted to do the politically correct thing or, 2) didn't like the smell - just bought into the propaganda. It's my belief that this ban passed because too many people didn't get off their asses to vote. When questioned, they just say 'we didn't think it'd really happen'. A survey taken on a smoker's rights website (which is clearly mostly smokers) showed that out of 300 members, only 19 had actually voted. I honestly believe that if this were put up for a re-vote, it would not pass. It may well be wishful thinking on my part, and if it died a second time around, I'd shut my mouth & let it go, and in the words of Roberta De Bour, 'get over it'. I understand that they are trying to get this back on the ballot in November 2008. The more people educate themselves to the damage these bans do, and realize how they are an insult to what this country stands for, the better. I would suggest to anybody who isn't interested in the threads posted, to simply not read them. There's been a LOT of threads posted here & on Toledotalk that hold zero interest to me - TPS posts outnumber most other topics at times - but I don't bitch about the topic of the post, I simply scroll on until I see one that holds some interest for me. But again - that kind of falls into that mindset of 'freedom of personal choise & taking responsibility for ones choises'.

Having said that - if you can't see the connection of Canada's confiscating tobacco advertising Grand Prix memorabilia, or antique gambling items to the smoking ban, then you're not looking closely enough. Simply put - passing smoking bans is just the easy way to get a foot in the door to other bans. Next up is alcohol & obesity - already in the works. Ban smoking in bars & restaurants led to banning smoking in cars - next up, apartments & condos (already being or has been done), then homes, then deciding custody or adoption rights based on if the parent smokes (already happening). Then outside (happening already). I am disqusted at what is happening to this country & it does not have to do with my right to smoke, or whether I'm able to light up at a bar. It has to do with the rights of private business owners & property owners to allow legal activites as they so choose. This country is fast becoming unrecognizable to the country I grew up in. The antis are destroying everything this country stood for. If you don't care, then don't read the threads. But if these threads make even a dozen people stop & re-think, they've served a purpose. I find them far more interesting than the goings on of TPS.

And the anti's keep taking offense at being labeled nazi's, and like to spout that it's just a typical jab to call somebody nazi like - but there's just entirely too many similarities to the current anti mindset & the nazi movement. Also, if you look at the format the nazis used, it's almost identical to the ones the smoking ban people are using. A rose by any other name....

"get over it" - gee, I wonder if that's what they implied to the American Indians. Or when they passed prohibition. Or when women & blacks couldn't vote. Or when blacks weren't allowed to own land. etc., etc., etc.

Sorry another post - but I wonder what the reaction would be to ongoing war in Iraq if Bush just said "get over it". I think people would feel pretty insulted.

...I was thinking that a single thread where links to all the articles could be located would be easier for reference...instead of having to page through all the various thread topics to make sure you're on the right one with the right link to the specific article you were hoping to locate.

silly me...

I wouldn't have a problem with a single smoking ban post maggie - but I assume it'd end up getting buried within a few days of the more recent posts. And it seems once a thread has been posted, people get bored & move on & rarely take the time to go back - they're on to the more interesting, more pressing news like Paris Hilton or who said what to who at a TPS board meeting. I post new threads on ban updates as they become available & are current news - no different than other posters posting their threads about other topics. Those current,new posts would end up buried in the archives I'm afraid, and quite frankly, I think it's important for people to be able to read about what's going on with it - regardless of whether they are for bans or not.

There are currently 6 smoking threads on Swampbubbles' main page and no threads on TPS...

I count at least nine topics on TPS-related stuff in the past month.

1.Who do you hope the TPS board picks to fill the empty position on the school board?
2.Candidates interview for open Toledo Board of Education position
3.05/29/07 TPS Board Report
4.Jack Ford among 10 applying for TPS board seat
5.OGT Ohio Graduation Test
6.Mayor calls for leaders to steer TPS
7.Barnett Resigns!
8.Open Letter to TPS superintendent John Foley
9.How Do You Feel About Public Education

maggie I simply look at the first post that appears at the top of the page (and scroll down if it doesn't interest me), so whatever new post appears at the top of the page, is new to me. However mgmt wants to handle it is ok by me, I guess, with a caveat. IF smoking ban posts are designated to one constant category (a pile to plop the new mail into, on top of all the old mail), then to avoid the appearance of being biased against those who are against the smoking (or any) ban, then it would only seem fair to ALSO designate a category for any & all TPS posts (a pile to plop the new mail into, on top of all the old mail). My point is simply that a designated catagory (mail pile) system, will most likely end up just as bad, messy, confusing, overwhelming - as that paper mail pile can tend to grow on your desk at home. What's on top gets the attention, what's buried beneath - gets put off, and off, and off.

hand - simply put - if you post all smoking ban threads into a separate blog, then many people won't take the time to look at them, or even know they're out there. The purpose of posting them is not to rant, so much as educate. Many people ARE interested, and very surprised to hear a lot of it because it's not info that the media puts out for anybody to see, you really have to dig & go to a smoker's rights website to find it. Most people don't even know they exist.

And why on Earth does it bother you how many smoking ban threads there are?? Simply don't read them.

Many people ARE interested

If they cared they'd find your blog then...

My only issue with all the posts is that you are turning this site into your own smoking blog; which I guess would be easier then starting you own.

Those who want to limit discussion about anything on this site are treading dangerous ground. That's the beginning of censorship. Just flip by the stuff that doesn't interest you. How hard is that? I don't really give a rat's ass about the TPS imbroglio, but I wouldn't want to limit discussion about it either. I just don't read it.

I'm not advocating the forced limiting of topics. I'd like to see a little self discipline, but I know it a lot to ask. What I would rather not see it Swampbubbles become nothing more than an anti-anti smoking blog either.

discussion either - but I do think that a blog for all such postings is a good idea...

by Pete and Krazy (little Dahlink!)

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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!

_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".

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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

hand - there's been many days when there's not been ONE topic of interest to me on swampbubbles (or tt) - I just scroll on. Other times, it's loaded with TPS or Carty bashing & I don't care about it either. You say these ban posts don't have anything to do with Toledo or Ohio? You are WRONG. The ban posts we put up that are happening elsewhere, CAN happen in Ohio (or Toledo) - that is why we post them HERE. There are already a handful of smoker's rights websites - but most people don't know they exist, and if you aren't a smoker, you aren't going to go searching for them. If all ban posts were confined to one area on swampbubbles, it's safe to say that non-smokers wouldn't see them, or bother to check them out, because they don't smoke, so it's not of interest enough - but many of these posts are NOT all about smoking bans, or, they are extentions of smoking bans - and they'd never know about them because they'd assume it's all smoking ban posts. I feel these posts do good in educating people to concerns that may be knocking on Toledo's or Ohio's door. Like it or not, the smoking bans are the first steps to get the other bans rolling (easy enough to track this, and frightening enough, they follow Hitler's plan almost exactly to a tee.)

I honestly think that if ban posts are confined to one little area that you really would have to make a point to look for, it IS a form of censorship - and just one more way to banish the bad smokers out of public view because hand doesn't want to see them. If they are confined to one little spot, I will lose a lot of respect for swampbubbles - it will become just one more blog to rant about TPS & what fertilizer to use.

To those who don't think these ban posts apply to Toledo or Ohio, or don't care just because they contain info about smoking bans - I think you're being very shortsighted, because a lot of the bans not related to smoking bans, & govt. policing people, CAN happen here. Don't think so? Just ask all the smokers who didn't bother to vote against the smoking ban. They also didn't think it'd happen here. Less than 60 percent of voters did not vote - because they didn't think it'd happen HERE.

hand, I suggest if a post doesn't interest you, you simply do what the rest of us do, scroll on & don't read them. Freedom to choose what post to read, you do not have to read them, just because they're posted.

But perhaps hand wants the ban posts banished or confined because he just wants us to go away & give up the fight. Or, maybe, he's afraid somebody may just learn something that he doesn't want them to know. Education is a powerful thing. If enough people begin to realize the depths this smoking ban can plung us into - into places that have nothing to do with smoking, but will come knocking on THEIR door, and strip THEIR freedoms - then these posts have done some good.

Oh, my God, dark, you're right, he did. (covers eyes).

time to fertilize some outside hanging plants while this antique reboots. ;^D

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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!

_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".

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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

Hand, I just re-read all my posts on the curfew thread, and I never said any such thing. I did comment on how it was when I was a kid, but also said that the world was a different, safer place back then. I also said that I just thought the curfew time was a bit early for the older grade kids, and that most kids are not out to make trouble, but a few do & spoil it for all, meaning - that if people see kids out after 10 pm, they sometimes just assume they're out to make trouble when they're not. I did mention that sometimes kids will sneak out at night, & the parents have no idea because they're sleeping (and think the kids are), so I felt it was wrong to just say 'bad parent', without knowing the facts. But at no time did I ever say that I thought the kids should have the right to hang out at all hours of the night, and cited the example of kids at night smashing our car windows. Do not mis-quote me please.

I was well aware of the public surveilance in England (cameras everywhere). But I also know that the smoking bans were passed in England before they were passed here, and like dark said, they basically used the same playbook that was used here, and from what I've read about smoking bans in other states & countries, there always seems to be a 'next' freedom taken - so England's "next", may well be our "next". And it's already happening here - with Scott firing employees who smoke at home on their own time, banning smoking in condos that people bought pre-ban etc. They take it step by step by step.

I understand the nazi label is offensive, but it's used because the smoking bans in this country have followed (step by step by step by step...) almost exactly the way Hitler's playbook dictated it to be played. Don't take my word for it, easy to find. I believe you if you say you did not vote for the smoking ban, but people who don't see a problem with it, or tell people opposed to the ban to 'get over it', are operating with the same mind set as the Nazi play book.

I never said that ADD was a figment of your, or anybodys imagination. I believe that many people do suffer from ADD & ADHD, and even made the point that I probably do as well (I meet almost all the criteria on the little quiz to see if you may have it), but that I just got labeled 'ditzy' because when I was younger, there wasn't an ADD label to stick on people. I kind of wondered out loud, how people prior to the labels & drugs managed. I DID suggest the possiblity that my kids pediatrician also seemed to think had a lot of validity - that too many people are too easily slapped with the ADD & ADHD label that don't really qualify for the label. It's an easy label to stick on kids (and adults) who are a bit hyper, or have don't do well in school or paying attention, or just being normal teenagers. I pointed out the example of my daughter's friend, who's mom had her put on several drugs for this diagnosis because she was 'moody', or acted off the wall at times, or hyper, etc. I knew this girl well, and the behaviour her mom was so upset over, were typical teenage behaviours. And I saw how those drugs made her worse, more depressed, easily angered, more moody, hyper (depending on which drug). And I noticed how my daughter's friend latched onto the diagnosis to explain away all her bad behavior. She had an excuse, her bad behavior wasn't her fault anymore, and she could act out even more & get away with it because she 'was ADD & couldn't help it". She even seemed to enjoy & brag up the diagnosis & what meds she was on at any given time. I realize that she does not represent all people diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, and that there are people who do struggle with it, and are helped with the meds. I was simply pointing out what my kids pedatrician had pointed out to me - that it's become an easy out, an easy excuse for what is normal behavior or bad behavior, and entirely too many people & kids are diagnosed with these things & put on meds that should not be. Now, my kids pediatrician had mentioned this to me a very long time ago, about hyperactive kids - before the ADD & ADHD labels came to be. Since then, within a mere decade or so - it seems the number of kids & adults diagnosed with ADD & ADHD, and being bi-polor/manic depressive have sky rocketed. 10 - 20 years ago, you didn't hear of too many people diagnosed as bi-polar. Now, everybody knows somebody who is. More so with ADD & ADHD. Is it because there's something that is making people have these problems? I highly doubt it. I think people today aren't much different than people were in our grandparent's day - the labels & meds have changed is all. I'm sure 50 - 100 years ago, people probably did have ADD, but who knew what was wrong? No label or diagnosis existed to explain the symptoms, so they more likely were told to 'snap out of it' or labeled 'ditzy' like I was. Anyway - my point was simply that I think, that most people diagnosed with ADD & ADHD probably do not need meds, and just bought into the label - they exhibited some of the symptoms perhaps. I don't doubt that many people do have these problems and do need meds for it. I just think it's dangerous to label kids so easily with things like this because kids tend to latch onto things like this for attention & excuses. My daughter's friend just ate up the attention, and burned out a lot of friendships because she didn't have to take responsibilty for her behaviors - it wasn't her fault anymore. But I challenge you handbanana to show me where I ever said ADD was all in your imagination. Those comments were never a personal attack on you or anybody, I was just making an observation & thinking out loud.

BZZZZZZ (sting) BZZZZZZ

...tell us how your really feel...lol

I do, however, like the idea of doing a weekly update of all the articles...or having a single smoking topic where all the articles could be posted...

and quite well-said. I couldn't tell you how many TPS threads I've avoided.

HERE is the best example I can give you of why I'll NEVER GIVE IT UP or 'LET IT GO'.

the entire movement is driven by vitriolic hatred to dehumanize,denigrate and vulgarize the smoker. Arizona has seen television spots in which the smoker is urinated on by a dog, and an unsuspecting young lady drinks the phlegm of a smoker.

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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!

_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".

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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

...your point... I don't know how others check on new posts, but I always hit the 'recent posts' button and then look at all the new comments. Considerating the frequency with which articles/links are posted, as well as the number of comments, I'm pretty sure that any 'Smoking Thread' would stay near the top...

just my thought...no right or wrong in this one...

Then sure, post it on the front page. But if it's a post about a new law in another country, then it probably should go into either a single smoking thread or onto a blog that you or Darkseid run. An occasional non-Toledo/Ohio thread would be fine IMHO, but it's like every other day that one of you two posts something random about smoking bans.

If you start a blog using Blogger, the new posts can be automatically linked to the Community sidebar using RSS. The system this site is built on is very powerful and flexible, and Chris has done a great job in setting it up. We just need to help him out a bit by using the features to keep the site focused.

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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

There are 10 smoking posts since June 1st...

As of 8 AM today, 11 of the 30 stories on the front page are about bans or the RJWF's perceived agenda. Isn't that a bit excessive for a website that, according to it's about page, "is a user centered site dedicated to breaking news and political discussion of Toledo and Northwest Ohio." Posting story after story about how our the "Antis" or the "RJWF" is ruining our lives because of a ban on another continent doesn't seem to fit the scope of this website.

"hand - simply put - if you post all smoking ban threads into a separate blog, then many people won't take the time to look at them, or even know they're out there."

Then wouldn't logic dictate that if you created a blog that gathered all of this information in one place, you'd be able to serve a larger demographic than just the readers of Swamp Bubbles? Like I mentioned previously, new posts can be linked to through the Community sidebar on this site via RSS.

"The purpose of posting them is not to rant, so much as educate."

And I don't think Darkseid got that memo. HeyHey calmly and eloquently pointed out his concerns with the Bariatric Surgery post and Darkseid responded with Nazi slurs, then refused to debate any further. And that wasn't the first time he's chosen that course of action. His misguided and unintelligible rage does more to hurt the cause than help it.

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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

I don't care how many post there are about smoking. I don't care how many post there about TPS. I don't care how many post there are about Carty, Chad's misfortunes or political ambitions, Floods, Paris, etc. This is an open forum and all should be allowed to post about whatever and as much as they want. Otherwise, SwamBubbles just becomes another ToledoTalk where subject matter is being directed to a narrow focus. I feel that the direction that TT took in their actions was a road in the wrong direction hence the formation of Swambubbles. Let's not let Swampbubbles follow down the same path.

It's interesting to note that despite how many post there are on any one subject, there is always a multitude of replies. If I seen 9 Smoking post with no replies then I would tend to agree that maybe the topic is being overplayed but that is not the case. As long as people keep replying to the post then there is interest being demonstrated and justifies the creations of similar post on the same subject matter.

If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth. ~Japanese Proverb

I'll never give up the fight until I die. By the way, Star, why would you feed a troll who took his screen name from a penis? ;^)

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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!

_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".

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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

up late too, I see.
Good old Block cablevision-143 channels, and not a damned thing on television, as my Father used to say.

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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!

_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

"You say these ban posts don't have anything to do with Toledo or Ohio? You are WRONG. The ban posts we put up that are happening elsewhere, CAN happen in Ohio (or Toledo) - that is why we post them HERE."

A lot of things that happen around the world could happen here, but they aren't posted on SwampBubbles because they're not local news. Should I start a post about every asteroid that is discovered since there's a potential that eventually it may strike Toledo?

"If all ban posts were confined to one area on swampbubbles, it's safe to say that non-smokers wouldn't see them, or bother to check them out, because they don't smoke, so it's not of interest enough - but many of these posts are NOT all about smoking bans, or, they are extentions of smoking bans - and they'd never know about them because they'd assume it's all smoking ban posts."

Actually, several of the articles you and Darkseid have posted have popped up in my RSS reader. And if you'd post them on a Blogger page, they would pop up on more peoples' radar than just posting them on SwampBubbles.

"I honestly think that if ban posts are confined to one little area that you really would have to make a point to look for, it IS a form of censorship - and just one more way to banish the bad smokers out of public view because hand doesn't want to see them. If they are confined to one little spot, I will lose a lot of respect for swampbubbles - it will become just one more blog to rant about TPS & what fertilizer to use."

That's a bit of a slap in the face to Chris, IMHO. He set up this website with the goal of providing us a place to have debates about local issues. If the purpose of this website has changed, then the About page is a bit behind the times. This IS "just one more" place for us to discuss TPS, and any other local topic.

"But perhaps hand wants the ban posts banished or confined because he just wants us to go away & give up the fight. Or, maybe, he's afraid somebody may just learn something that he doesn't want them to know."

Actually, what annoys me the most about your and Dark's post is the rampant use of the Nazi label for anyone who happens to disagree with your point of view. Also, the inference you've made about how the ADD I deal with every day of my life is a figment of my imagination doesn't help, either.

And for the record, I voted against the current Ohio smoking ban, as I have said before.

"Education is a powerful thing."

If you truly believe this, please research the posts that you make before submitting them. For example, the recent thread about how Big Brother is here because Brits are encouraged to rat out their coworkers completely ignores the fact that Big Brother has been in England for years. CCTV coverage has been a fact of life on the British Isles for years, but only now is Darkseid noticing that they've lost their rights. Ignore the poster, Big Brother has only been watching us since the inception of England's smoking ban.

"If enough people begin to realize the depths this smoking ban can plung us into - into places that have nothing to do with smoking, but will come knocking on THEIR door, and strip THEIR freedoms - then these posts have done some good."

Except when their rights are given away by someone else, correct? Because in a recent thread about the curfew in Toledo, you seemed more than willing to give up your kids' right to travel freely after dark and to congregate peacefully. Any retort?

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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

The next video is going to be posted in under twenty minutes! Hopefully it doesn't include anyone wearing boots. ;^D

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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

I understand that you feel under siege, but you lost the good fight. Time to move on.

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Nope. The other side NEVER stops. It'll never be time to move on, any more than alcohol prohibition was. I'll repeat it loudly: IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE SMOKING THREADS, IGNORE THEM.
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BRING THE TROOPS HOME-NOW!

_________________
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq.Why don't we give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, and we're not using it any more".

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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

...a very valid point...a blog that listed all of these would serve a much wider audience. It doesn't take anything to start your own blog...even I was able to do it. Blogger.com makes it very easy to do and there are lots of us around here who are always willing to lend a helping hand. I got lots of help from Lisa Renee and History Mike and have helped others who've asked...it's a very friendly community.

And posting to your own blog is as easy as posting here...

I think it's a really good idea - and having everything in one place gives credibility to the issue that such restrictions (bans) are pervasive within our community...

I can even see such a blog becoming the "source" for all such things...and linked throughout the country...

hmm...perhaps I should just stop typing and start it myself???

and don't get me wrong, it's not to try and stop such articles from appearing here...it's just that if you're really trying to educate, why not take advantage of the technology to reach a wider audience?

Specifically because ToledoTalk's admin didn't want to host heated political issues anymore. In JR's own words: "Visit this new local community Web site and create an account. A few days ago, I asked Chris Myers if he would host discussions on politics, school issues, big development projects, smoking bans, and other "hard stuff" or top news stories." SwampBubbles was created in cooperation with ToledoTalk, not in spite of it.

"This is an open forum and all should be allowed to post about whatever and as much as they want."

I never said they couldn't or shouldn't post smoking ban stories, I just wondered if there's a better place to post them and if they want to post them here, perhaps posting them in moderation would be wise. If I posted all the stuff I post elsewhere on SwampBubbles, you'd be pretty sick of hearing about personal finance, Premiership matches, and porn. Narrowing the subject matter posted on this site isn't censorship, it helps keep focus on the stated goals of this website. Again, if Chris feels otherwise, I will happily defer to his desires. However, in my experience once a website strays from it's original intents and tries to be everything to everyone, the shark has been jumped.

The focus on local issues is what interests me in SwampBubbles, but as of 3 PM today, 5 of the 6 newest stories have nothing to do with Toledo or the region. I can get news about world events, even stories overlooked by the MSM, with better writeups elsewhere, but I can't get news and commentary about Toledo anywhere but here. The strength of Swamp Bubbles is the local focus and discussion. I can get news and discussion from WSPD, but if I disagree with what is being said, I can't engage in a discussion with the host every time. Even though I think most of Chad Quigley's ideas are unworkable, at least he's provoking discussion about local topics. However, posting stories about pinup bans in the Royal Navy doesn't really get a conversation started on a website covering Toledo, Ohio.

Which leads me to this statement:

"If I seen 9 Smoking post with no replies then I would tend to agree that maybe the topic is being overplayed but that is not the case."

The majority of non-Toledo related smoking threads only have a comment or two in them, often times from either Darkseid or Starling. There's not a whole lot of discussion going on, just name calling and bias.

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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

My screen name comes from a dog cloned from a milkshake's hand. But Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you...

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"When I say your dumb name, please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me." -Ignignokt

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

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