This comment from Maggie got me thinking.
“...I don't mean to be contrary or confrontational, but a thought struck me as I was reading your post...Says who????
A lot of people say that we must have a strong Toledo in order to have a strong area. That if Toledo declines, the surrounding communities will also decline. However, we see Perrysburg growing and expanding even while Toledo is losing population and businesses.
So I wonder...where is the proof of this statement? Are there studies which show this? Are there other major cities that have had such a detrimental impact on the suburbs? Is it just as likely that, as a major urban area declines, another suburban area becomes the central focus?”
I don't know the answers, but am curious...” (post “Here’s 1 Over the Bow”).
I know that Toledo plays a major part in the railroad system (I remember a friend telling me that Toledo was one of the “top 10” for nuclear annihilation because of the rairlroads that passed through here). But that would continue without a town of 300,000 providing the “services” to the people who keep the railroads working.
I know Toledo has the infrastructure for the medical needs for the people of Northwest Ohio. But new hospitals could be built if it was decided that Toledo had no “future”
.
I know we make a lot of vehicles, and car parts, but those could be made elsewhere. So what is Toledo good for? Is our problem just that as all urban centers, our central city has become a magnet for the poor because of cheaper housing, and that our efforts to alleviate their plight just prolongs the agony? What if all “services” to the poor were eliminated that are subsidized by the city government (I am not talking about county or state contributions)? What would happen? Would Wal-Marts have to go out of business because no one would be available subsidized by local governments to work for their cheap wages? Would the neighborhoods (like Old South Toledo) slowly become vacant ground that could be rebuilt for a resurgent middle-class?
I tried to go online to the library before I began this post. I wanted to do some reading, and preparatory work, but when I kept getting “not responding” I just decided to let fly. Maybe we’ll have some interesting comments. I am sure that there are implications I haven’t even considered. Let your imaginations take wing.
I think this is a very thought provoking post and a good series of questions to ask. I've been posting the idea lately of breaking-up Toledo into separate independent municipalities rather than having one large central gov and certainly as an alternative to the disastrous idea of unigov.
I've seen some studies on unigov and HUD that hit on a few of the questions you're asking, they should be linked on my blog...Good Post!
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
The need for a strong central business district is based on urban economic theory.
Actually here in Arlington, VA it's pretty interesting because there isn't a central business district such as a downtown.
The area consists of 13 different unincorporated neighborhoods, or "urban villages" with there own business/residential districts and are often refered to as cities. For instance, I live in the Columbia Pike neighborhood, a largely immigrant area but work 2 miles away in Clarendon, but it's all still Arlington with each retaining their own character. All of these neighborhoods are virtually self-sustaining, meaning you can shop, eat, and entertain yourself within them.
Technically, there is no Arlington city it's actually the smallest county in the US with a size of 26 square miles (compared to Toledo's 84 square miles) and consisting of 203,000 residents.
Toledo has some strong neighborhoods and I think the idea of letting them break-away from the larger city and giving them a form of self-determination would spur growth overall. At least it's worth a debate.
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
I have spent the last couple of hours cursing my computer as I tried to come up with information that I wanted to use. First, I knew that I didn
My next question would be: what percentage of Toledo families earn less than $32,000 a year (I am not considering the elderly, or single 20-somethings), and might receive our tax dollars as aid?
I guess what I am getting at is what is Toledo's "self-sufficient" population (families that are making it)?
Titled: "ECONOMIC THEORY AND URBAN HISTORY: Models and Narratives in Conflict" by Michael A. Bernstein
Department of History, University of California, San Diego
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:tnveNwj0EBMJ:www.usc.edu/schools/sp...
This is a site concerning Wal-Mart, but the same might be considered with a lot of businesses that pay their workers what is considered
of Toledo. However the bottom line will be what to do with the most needy sections? The self supportive entities contingent to poorer sections of Toledo (Ottawa Hills, Maumee, Perrysburg etc) will not want to incorporate a failing enterprise. Or does the model allow for some sections of Toledo to feed off the welfare system for a determent amount of time and then allowed to just die off?
If we wait long enough we will see what happens to Michigan as its' economy collapses and the infer structures deconstruct. Michigan is a good model as it too has failed to recognize the fact that the industrial revolution is over and we are now in a technological era along with a service industry.
There is something to say about small being better than bigger.
Can you imagine what Toledo would be like if no one had to pay taxes to support anyone? If we cut welfare and other
As an example;
own voted to pull the plug
By Matt Moline
Special to The Capital-Journal
HARRIS --- This is the story of a town that decided to turn off nearly all of its lights and go out of business.
It simply couldn't afford to do anything else.
The Anderson County town got its start in 1929 when voters organized a city government that promised to light up the streets with electric lights. But seven decades later, the situation has dimmed in this hamlet of 53 inhabitants.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20010812/ai_n11769382
The other references I can find are articles from people wanting to unincorporate a city as they do not like the way taxes were/are spent.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
...when I asked about the belief that you need a strong urban core, I was thinking more along the lines of what happened in Detroit. It had suburbs that grew and many of them are 'cores' in their own right, at the present time. These major hubs may not qualify as 'urban cores' but the way that they've grown and developed and now really don't have a need for the 'urban core' of Detroit, is what I was wondering about...is it likely that something along those lines might be the future of Toledo?
Do 'urban cores' that people say are so necessary shift in terms of their location? Is it likely that the 'core' of activity in this region may move out of Toledo and into one of the suburban communities?
Where do the establishments get their labor from? For example, are the workers at Springmeadows from Holland, or Toledo? So does Toledo subsidize those who work at the shops at Springmeadows with "benefits" for which Toledoans are taxed? It is all very complicated, and commingled. I was just wondering. I hear complaints all the time about how Toledo drags down the region's economy, but is this really true? Or does Toledo "subsidize" the region's economy with cheap labor subsidized through taxes on Toledoans?
Personally, I think the other direction would be better.
Most people here deride UniGov. But it's worked very well in a number of cities across the country, including right here close to home in Indianapolis.
I do understand conservatives being against UniGov on the principle that it actually reduces the representation of the people.
But I also think it should appeal to Conservatives based on the fact that it reduces the overall size of government.
I wonder how much of the anti-unigov sentiment is just elitism. People who paid a premium to live in Mau, Per, Syl, and Ott, and don't like the idea that the councilmen representing their district wouldn't be any more powerful than those representing the plebs in the center city. I can understand such a sentiment, but I don't agree with it.
I could see Toledo down to 230,000 with even bigger suburbs within 10 years. Further forecast 3% income taxes and 70% of the same elected officials today still in office. COSI will somehow still be running.
Overall I see the region maintaining a slight gain in population overall, just more in burbs - less in Toledo. Toledoens will continue to define every white, black, hispanic, european, or asian living in the suburbs as elitists. Shane will be smoking Marlboro Lights living in Monroe, MI.
for change in Toledo will come when its' failed policies and way of doing business brings the city to its' knees. I predict in ten years Toledo will be a different city with leaders whose names you will not recognize.
Our major industry will be high technology and for those not in this field they will be in the service profession. The Blade will no longer be found at your doorstep. If the Blade survives it will be read along with other magazines and news papers online.
Children will have the option of attending a local school system or going online for their education. The reason they can stay home to get an education will be because their parents will be working from home.
Suburban communities will be far ahead of large metropolitan structures. This is because they have smaller political management issues and can respond quickly to change.
So let's not get too worried about how to change things in the short term and just guide changes as they occur.
Re-districting will enable the equall representation we need and are entitled to. There could even be a ratio of population to # of coucil seats. Since parts of old toledo and the other areas would be combined, that should roughly equall out the population of the new districts.
There's always the financial bennies too. For starters, we'd save time and money on all fronts just not having to pay people to do the tax sharing paperwork..laf. Toledo may me in a weaker position than it was a couple of decades ago, but it can still hold it's own..for now. There's no chart for the improvements to the overall ability to get services provided in critical areas all over the region with the combined collateral, equipment, machinery, personel etc. Larger projects would be easier to do with combined resources.
Maybe the best thing to do with Toledo is: nothing! The situation might solve itself. Just looking at my little corner of the world (Chapin Street) my next door neighbor is 84 years old. When she leaves her property for her final stay in a nursing home (unless she passes away there) the property (which isn
Not that its' relevant or anything, but downtown Toledo is more of a busy, bustling city than I remember it from 5-10 years ago. I don't think Toledo is in a dire situation as everyone wishes to paint it as, and in fact, I think Toledo is in a good position in redefining itself. I spend a lot of time downtown, and I only see improvements say from 5 years ago, and thats' only going to continue and spill out.
There seems a cycle to home ownership. A home is built, and a family moves in. This might happen again and again over a 40-60 year period. Then something happens. The home ends up in careless hands, or penurious hands.
Or someone gets hold of it as a speculative venture. It is not a labor of love, but a business venture. It is a house that is rented out, and tracked on a profit or loss statement. Eventually, the
After we've "urbanized" Lucas County we might look northward with our expansionis eyes. All those refugees (like my brother) who drove north to escape the rudeness of the city would have to contend with our advances. Michigan would be too poor to mount a defense, and we could barter our splendid glass and Jeeps for their corn. The fertile soil of Michigan would give us "lebensraum".
Most of the complaints I hear about taxation are the result of trying to give a
If TARTA is removed from the equation, then people with have to walk, hitch a ride, or purchase a vehicle. If vehicle inspection laws are enforced then that removes unsafe vehicles from the road (I would pay taxes for that). If welfare, and other financial incentives are removed then Toledo would see much of its population that isn
I got thinking about Toledo (and Lucas County) history, and did some research. This always leads to more questions. I guess this is what I have so far, http://oldsendtoledomusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/quotes-from-toledo-prof..., and I guess the microfilms from the Toledo Blade are the next step.
"Businesses would either then have to pay higher wages (and charge higher fees), or close their doors."
Or move their operations to China, Mexico, or to the next neighboring city willing to give them a tax break.
I was looking in the following book for the change from mayor to city manager, and here is what I found,
http://oldsendtoledomusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/mayor-or-city-manager.html.
I was looking at my source, and found this paragraph on population decline: http://oldsendtoledomusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/toledos-population-decl....
From about 1935 until 1993 we had a city manager running Toledo. There were numerous attempts to return to a strong mayor, but none succeeded until 1992. Why? I decided to go to the Local History Department at the Main Library to research this. Here is the first of several reports from the Toledo Blade during those days:
http://oldsendtoledomusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/toledoans-will-evaluate...
Here is the second of a series of from the Toledo Blade in 1992 concerning why various opinion leaders wanted a "strong mayor."
http://oldsendtoledomusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/finkbeiner-strong-mayor...
I read Keith Wilkowski
...but does this still apply today? Do you have any current references for this, Junta, that I could look at?
But Arlington itself is an exurb of DC. DC is the gravity that holds it all together. If DC didn't exist, Arlington wouldn't exist. Neither would the other wealthy NoVa cities.
Much like Toledo is the gravity that holds Maumee, Sylvania, etc, together. Maumee, for example, thrives in entertainment, dining, and retail. These businesses don't exist to serve Maumee. They exist to serve the Toledo area. Without the 300k citizens of Toledo, the suburbs would look a lot more like small towns, no?
Of course, a rose by any other name, but the point is that you need the mass of people...
According to this persons column;
"Holland, Maumee, and Northwood are just a few of the Toledo, Ohio-area towns that offer a rural lifestyle as well as easy city commutes, says a local Realtor."
http://realtytimes.com/rtcpages/20040227_toledo.htm
I do not think the shift is necessary or more of that it is a cycle of ups and downs.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
Interesting.
http://uac.utoledo.edu/
"The Northwest Ohio Economic Research Collaborative
The Northwest Ohio Economic Research Collaborative (NWOERC) is an initiative aimed at identifying industry clusters that drive our region's economy and play a role in its future health. We encourage you to visit the NWOERC web page to read the latest information about this important project."
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
...I've done a lot of research on 'unigov' proposals, examples, etc...
There are pros and cons in every aspect of it. But it doesn't always reduce the size of government overall.
For instance, if you went to a regional government in Lucas County, you might be able to reduce the number of elected officials - but you'd increase the number of paid firefighters.
The majority of the townships have volunteer FDs, and in a regional government, they wouldn't continue to be volunteer, they'd become employees of the government, increasing the number of employees - maybe by more than you'd lose with the elimination of elected officials...and maybe at more cost considering the wages we pay our firefighters versus the wages for some of the elected officials.
I'm not making an argument for or against, just adding another aspect for consideration.
I also don't think it's elitist attitudes or racial, as some have said - but a fear of importing failed policies of Toledo into the rest of the region. Of course, the successful policies of the suburbs could take precedence, but many doubt it...
To be honest, I think the most opposition with the Unigov idea, that I've heard from, are Toledoans.
EXACTLY!
Toledo is an interesting situation because we are so close to the border with another state. I grew up out on Alexis Road (near Meteor), and spent as much of my
OldSouthEndBrdy, that's exactly the problem with suburbanization. Areas naturally become blighted, but instead of destroying the blighted areas and rebuilding, people continue to move out. If we had a natural border like Manhattan or something like that, your theory would hold very much true. But why would people rebuild in your neighborhood when they can build a new house in a better school district out in the suburbs. It's a huge risk to build there. We see that risk now coming to fruition in downtown. Many of those new apartments, condos and townhouses are incredibly nice, but I often ask myself if it's a good investment to buy down there (cause I'm thinking about it). Will it be worth more in 10 years than it is now? Developers will consider the same thing when considering the redevelopment of the Old South End. They know it's much more attractive, at this point, to build out, not to rebuild in.
Also true T++. Redevelopment of a city starts inward and moves out. That, if I recall correctly, holds true to economic theory. That process is slowed, however, when people continue to move out.
Fair enough, OldSouthEndBrdy. That is generally true. But I fear that this outward movement is dangerous. I hope that more people are interested in developing these properties than I anticipate. But generally, you are correct. We already see it with downtown in the warehouse district. Those properties are being developed. This movement has also moved to the Marina District and the Old West End. The theory holds true. But, I think it would be much more efficient if the county government restricted new development on rural lands. The reason of course is that corn in suddenly profitable.
I don't see why not. (sarcasm)
I don't get how you can uni-gov your way out of Lucas County into Wood County and others? I also don't get how you believe uni-gov is effective if you can't make Toledo work with what you have now.
There are thousands of cities across this county running effective local government's for every Indianapolis uni-gov example you bring up. Besides, isn't Indy the state capital of Indiana and benefits also from State Government.
Everytime I hear uni-gov and Toledo, I think of a rapid cancer spreader. Cure the ills first, then talk.
Families represent a tax base for both income and maintaining property, they tend to plant themselves for a long period of time. What they want is good schools and safe communities. Toledo does not offer that anymore. When that happens the families start moving out to areas with a better future for their kids and community.
Besides good schools, the other two legs of this three legged barstool is jobs and taxes.
Toledo is losing jobs to suburbs, down South, and out West. While its taxes are not competitive to surrounding communities that compete for businesses and attracting residents to move to their tax environments.
Unfortunately, Toledo lost its focus. It fell off and broke its barstool. Uni-gov is not the answer to sobering up T-Town.
I hear so much criticism of downtown on here. Downtown today != Downtown 1997 and CERTAINLY != Downtown 1987.
Downtown is a vibrant place. There's beautiful architecture. Beautiful landscaping. Busy nightclubs, restaurants, and bars.
People from all over the region come downtown on the weekends for the night life. The hottest nightclub in the city right now is downtown--Pub St. George--and arguably the second-best, Club Sin, is at the docks.
Furthermore, I feel entirely safe walking alone or with my girlfriend at any hour of the day. We often walk from the ballpark area, or the Adams/14th area, or the waterfront, to my apt in the Lasalle building. There's the ocassional homeless guy but they're harmless. I'm not a small guy by any means, but I never feel that it's not a safe place to be walking.
If you're on here and you make comments about out empty, blighted, vacant or dying downtown, I ask you to please hold your comments and SPEND SOME TIME THERE. It's a wonderful place to live and work.
And the next time you're planning on going out for dinner and drinks, head downtown instead of Maumee, Levis, etc. Eat outside at Manhattans on Adams. Enjoy one of the finest meals in the area at Giorgio's. You want trendy dinner and drinks? Check out Diva on Huron. Something more low key? Jacksons Place or Murphy's. A nice hometown type of pub? Go to the Bronze Boar or Wesleys on Adams. Looking for dancing? Eclipse, Fusion, and Pearl all serve that niche. You want some quick and good food? Try the Wing Station or Downtown Philly, both on Adams, or Coney Island. if you want delivery, check out Jimmy Johns or the Madison Bistro. If you're looking for lunch, go for Foccaccias or Quiznos or PJs.
The bottom line is that there's SO MUCH to do down here. I'm looking out my window right now and see dozens of people enjoying the beautiful weather and the clean, safe, bustling atmosphere.
Your comment rings true if by going to Mexico or China the product manufactured has a market back where the business departed from. But if the business is a repair business (automobiles, tires, refrigerators, etc.) I don't think that holds true.
Also, moving to another town might work, but then you would have to compete against other businesses that are already established in the town. Larger businesses might be able to "crush" the competition, but if you are a smaller business, then you have to compete against other, established smaller businesses.
And since small businesses are where most of American business is at then they might not get a tax break if they move from Toledo to Maumee unless Maumee wants to piss off their "native" small businesses. Most towns give big "tax breaks" to big businesses, not small ones. Look how Toledo sucked up to Jeep.
Do you have anything that cites anything differently?
...very interesting...
"...but a fear of importing failed policies of Toledo into the rest of the region."
Exactly, except, what about importing the successful policies of the 'burbs into Toledo?
I don't think the Old South End would be attractive to families at this point. I think it might be attractive to single YUPPIES if enough empty properties can be joined together to make condos. I am thinking (through attrition) maybe 20-30 years from now.
I should clarify my last sentence. Corn is important for ethanol. While it's not the most efficient vegetable to create ethanol, we could go to others. If this region wants to succeed, we need to promote NEW industry and NEW ideas. Part of this is energy efficiency. We can do that with corn and other grains with our very fertile land. I was being a bit sarcastic with my previous post in giving the local government a reason to limit expansion. But really, we need to do something to limit outward expansion so that we force people to redevelop inwards. I think there is no better reason for us to protect our rural areas. And ourselves for that matter.
...I haven't found anything recent either way...hence the question and the search for information...
...the successful policies of the suburbs could take precedence...but from what I've heard from people, they don't think that will happen.
There have been many discussions and comments about how Toledo keeps doing the same thing and getting the same results. "Toledoans" would outnumber, significantly, the suburban voters. From what I understand, many who fear the 'failed policies of Toledo' are of the belief that 'toledoans' will continue to elect many of the same people and they will end up in charge of the whole area, bringing the 'toledo attitude' into the suburbs.
There are ways to address this, in terms of requiring representation geographically, etc...but any breakdown by numbers of people (similar to how Toledo designed their district council seats) will give the advantage to 'toledoans.'
this is my understanding...
...Portland area limited outward expansion and ended up with severe housing cost inflation and a lack of 'affordable' housing for many of its residents. There were benefits to what they did - but also negatives...we should be aware of all the potential impact of such ideas.
But I can see some similarities with what OSEB is saying to what they're doing in Summit County (?) where they're redeveloping sections of the city at a time - tearing down old, dilapidated houses and making larger lots with more green space in an effort to deal with the detriments of such poor housing stock while providing buildable lots for future owners...interesting idea...
I can try to look for something Maggie, but that was the theory three years ago when I took the class. I'll try to find something.
Pretty much everything costs money. So those are out. But I did find this which gives you a history and trends in urban economic research. It kind of glosses over some of what this post is about. http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/brookings-wharton_papers_on_urban_affairs/v2000...
...the same thing about payment to read the papers...the major reference was to a book written in 1989...
The link is to a paper that's 52 pages long ... so I probably won't get to it over the weekend...
thanks!