Southern Right-to-Work Leads the Way to Poverty

Nissan's new hires are $12-per-hour workers who are temporary for 5 years
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012308070028
Quote from Article:

TRAVERSE CITY -- About half the 1,000 new employees Nissan is adding in Canton, Miss., have been hired, but they are contract workers earning about $12 an hour and they won't become full-time Nissan employees for five years, said Bill Krueger, Nissan North America senior vice president in charge of manufacturing, purchasing and supply chain management.

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on the pensions terminated for Delphi retirees during the 'auto bailout".
These victims of Government sponsored graft mostly reside in Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana !
This theft by job killers amounted to around $185,000 per employee.

So, as 20, 000 Delphi retirees get the Obozo Shaft, to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars stolen.
Making it the LARGEST theft in World History by radical America hating D-politicians and their criminal union brethren !

Nice crowd to run with, wouldn't you agree ?!

Oh, but the "Bailout", was a success ?!
Tell that to Saturn UAW employees, Saturn dealerships, and their employees !
Ditto that to Oldsmobile and Pontiac folks too.

A repetitious LIE, is still a lie...but, but, Carty, has changed, I, I,I, didn't have sexual relationships with that woman, I can see Federal deficits for as far as the eye can see, client # 9...

So?

You think the huge amount of people in this area who can't find jobs, or those who work only intermittently, wouldn't jump at the chance at those jobs if Nissan were offering them here in Toledo?

You think the 1,000 new employees in Mississippi aren't thrilled to have jobs, as opposed to public assistance, or living with relatives as charity cases? There are workers in this area who would MOVE to Mississippi if they could get one of those jobs you are turning your nose up at. Not to mention, that it has been all over the news ever since BO-care was dumped on us, that businesses are holding back hiring all over the country - because basically they don't trust Obama, and believe that more punitive policies to business would come from a 2nd BO term. So to my mind - if you are so offended that these are not permanent jobs - you need look no further than the current White House resident for the cause.

Based on your post, I guess this will also surprise you - corporations like Owens-Corning, Owens-Ilinois, along with smaller companies & firms have been moving workers from temp status to full-time for decades.

Who would move to Mississippi for a $25,000/year manufacturing job?

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

for work, are underemployed, or who have given up looking !

How's that ?

Maybe a horde of illegal aliens if 88 MILLION possibilities doesn't meet to your requirements.

I don't know, but somebody might be:

Year / Population / % change
1990 / 2,573,216 / 2.1%
2000 / 2,844,658 / 10.5%
2010 / 2,967,297 / 4.3%

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi

Saturn,Pontiac, Oldsmobile , and Delphi retirees, getting the Obummer Unionized Shaft ?!

Hint: Google any one of FDR's 171 CONFIRMED communists in his horrid administration for an apropos article to steal and post making sense of job killing Fascism !

Hint # 2:Google any one of Mao's paragraphs from his Little Red Book, on communism for another moronic economic response.

Hint # 3 : Hugo Chavez, the Nicaraguan Brothers Ortega, must also have printed something economically vapid , that you can steal and post.

After all, all Government crisis's have been absolutely and 100% caused by Government intervention into Markets, they no nothing about !!!! Prohibition, the drug war, nuclear plants, sugar, coffee, mohair, etc.

THINK: Toledo's amazingly "profitable " land deals to the communist Chinese, for a more local reference !!!

Laughing so hard I can barely take it.....

I concur with Farmergal. Mississippi is dead last in median household incomes in the nation. Those workers are glad to be employed. In fact, a worker getting $12/hr in MS ($36,646 median 2009) is doing better than one getting the same here in OH ($45,395 median 2009)... and factory jobs in Ohio seem to be following the same trend. $12/hr is about all you can expect here.

"Right to work" means WORK. Without it, most people end up sitting outside the Golden Class, desperate for one of the very few good-paying jobs, because union restrictions drive out employers.

And of course (and by no means a lesser thing) "right to work" is a natural right. Unions do not have the natural right to close up shops, since they don't own those shops. "Right to work" reflects the natural rights of ownership.

Constitutional right to freedom of association, as well as the common law principle of private ownership of property. VS. a free-rider problem. And differences among states confuses the term even more. Compare Texas to Ohio Texas economic gains comes from (NAFTA), and the absence of a state income tax, and right-to-work laws.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

There are three words which, more than anything else, explains why, unlike its other southern and Right-to-Work [For Less] compatriots, Texas's economy has been less negatively affected by the Great Recession than have most states. Those three words are: oil, oil, and oil!

Mississippi, with a far more agriculturally-based economy than is Ohio's, still has an unemployment rate of 8.8%. Ohio's rate is 7.2%. BTW -- Mississippi's Governor is a Republican, and both houses of the Mississippi State Legislature are controlled by the Republican Party.
The so-called "Right-to-Work", is, practically speaking, the right to work for less! Low wage rates do not automatically translate into more jobs.

Sorry ideologues. I know you hate facts!

Why don't you mention California's, pending $19 BILLION hole ?!
Why don't you mention the citizens & businesses fleeing New York State ?
Why don't you mention Illinois',citizens & businesses fleeing like they did Ohio, when Celeste-D, was Governor ?

Yes indeed, mentioning 100% Dim ruined States isn't allowed by liars carrying the chamber-pot for their Masta !!!

And, why don't you point out Toledo's, excellent governance by your horrid net worth killing criminal party ?!

FACTS; are not a liberal liars providence !

The right to work for less is still keeping you employed. Not in Toledo, however; our vast tracts of abandoned properties tells that tale. Toledo's unemployment rate is higher than Mississippi's. Oh wait, Toledo doesn't have RTW. Hmm.

The Doehler-Jarvis event is still fresh in the minds of people who are honest about what's happening (i.e. union-prompted wage inflation shuts down jobs). That's not you, apparently. Talk about 'ideologues'!

Non-Right-to-Work STATE of Ohio -- 7.2%.
Right-to-Work for less STATE of Mississippi -- 8.8%.
If the facts don't match your ideology, GZ, you just change the facts to suit yourself!

Ohio, is still reeling from Strickland's-Dim, killing off of over 800,000 JOBS HERE !!!!!!

My Lord, the lengths that America haters go to , to justify their boy & their Dim political Party, killing off $21 TRILLION of real Americans net worth in 3.5 short years,confirms that public education has FAILED miserably !
And that welfare vote buying by the same Dim criminals won't cease until Fascism, in America, is KILLED off like the Dims did to the American Dream of Home Ownership !

Thank GOD, that Gov.Kasich and responsible adult R's in Ohio's State governance , in control here have stemmed the economic horrors of the past administration and, currently we all enjoy a SURPLUS of a BILLION dollars !

God, is stupidity & base cognition ,an inherent gene in America hating weirdos ?

I thought so....

Toledo lacks RTW. So why do jobs flee?

You already know the answer, and you can't admit it.

so why is the unemployment rate in Ohio LOWER than it is in Mississippi? 7.2% to 8.8%!

I guess that you don't know how to answer that question, so you make an "apples to oranges" comparison instead.

Facts are tough on ideologues!

Mississippi and Ohio themselves are an apples to oranges argument.

For instance, Ohio is a Great Lakes state. If the Great Lakes states broke off to form their own country they'd be the 5th biggest economy in the world.

Likewise Mississippi has had high unemployment for the last 40+ years. If you want to see the impact of RTW then let's examine the unemployment for the state before and after RTW.

Now the best way to compare the two states in terms of unemployment is to look at not their unemployment rates but the change in the unemployment rates and factor for major changes that are not a causation of state/federal policy i.e. the impacts of Hurricane Katrina on Mississippi.

MikeyA

Just another example of how ideologues hate facts. If the facts don't match your ideology, find some lame excuse. Odd! I thought that to you and the rest of the anti-union crowd, the Great Lakes states had been rusting for the last 40+ years. Now, miraculously you find some value in Ohio being a "Great Lakes state"! If, as you state, Mississippi has had "high unemployment for the last 40+ years", it appears as though you are admitting that, for Mississippi, RTW [for less] has been a long-term DISADVANTAGE!

http://www.glc.org/rap/docs/Great%20Lakes%20Business%20Agenda_021209.pdf

Rusting for forty years huh? Please read the link. You won't have to get past the first paragraph.

MikeyA

It is ideologues like you who call our area the "Rust Belt", NOT I. If you truly disagree with this, fine. However, it seems that, when it's convenient to your argument on one topic, we live in the "Rust Belt", but when a different argument is needed, we live in an area that is an economic juggernaut!

I have been saying for MORE than 40 years that we have tremendous advantages in our location which have not been properly promoted. I have advocated consistently to call our area the "Water Belt"!

However, this entire topic obfuscates the original point. If RTW [For Less] creates an economic advantage, and Mississippi has been a RTW state for decades, why is Mississippi's unemployment rate significantly higher than that in the non-RTW State of Ohio? BTW -- Mississippi sits on the river from which it obtains its state name, the largest river in our nation, and also sits on the Gulf Coast.

So "Rust Belt" is an ideological term? Then that puts many commentators on MSNBC on the far right because I've heard the term used there several times. In fact, you used the term here, I used "Great Lakes States"

The term Rust Belt refers to the Steel industry and the other manufacturing industries based upon steel.

Also of note I framed the debate upon the states economies based upon the Great Lakes not upon the dying manufacturing industries. That is because all of the Great Lakes States will still have influence and a strong economy because of the Great Lakes, NOT because of manufacturing.

And yes, the Mississippi River does add an important base for Mississippi but the St. Lawrence Seaway is by far more important to the Country than the Mississippi river is. That is because the Great Lakes are the world's biggest source of freshwater, a highly valuable resource, and thus will insure America/Canada always being a successful economy.

Ever look at the availability of freshwater vs the third world, I think you will find some similarities in the maps.

MikeyA

Hell, what do new UAW workers get now, $14, maybe $15 an hour?
I don't know if it's still like that but for years the union allowed the company to use temporary, part time workers up until just before they would have to put them in the union, then they would lay them off and rehire them to start the process all over again.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

Also keep in mind that MS, like most southern right to work states are welfare recipients who can only survive by sucking at the teats of NY, NJ and CA. Sad the northern states have to keep their taxes high so we can fund infrastructure projects in the southern welfare states that in turn use their modern infrastructure to steal jobs from the north.

And, since not all Dim mooches are as stupid as they seem, they have migrated to States like New York, to sop up Welfare Freebies, that States like Mississippi, DO NOT OFFER !!!

Lies by radicals are dreamed up fantasies not unlike wet dreams they wake up all sweaty to....to them dreams are real events in their shallow minds.

In other words LUNATIC LIARS ALL !

Should be called "Right to be Represented in Union Negotiations Without Having to Pay" law. Freeloaders.

These workers already have a right to not join a union. This is just government intervention in the labor market.

Pink Slip

"These workers already have a right to not join a union."

That's right, and they also have the right to work for an employer. Both these rights are recognized in RTW.

Unions don't get to dictate terms to a business that they don't own. How many times must you be reminded?

Unions that want to control a business are perfectly free under our well-established laws of private property and asset transaction, to buy a controlling interest in that business. Assuming, of course, that the owner wants to sell, which he is under no legal requirement to do.

"Unions don't get to dictate terms to a business that they don't own"

Employees have every right to negotiate the terms of their labor. The labor market is a two-way street. Employers can't produce or sell goods without labor. It's simple supply and demand. To suggest otherwise, as you often do, is a egregious misunderstanding of a market-based system.

Pink Slip

The two terms are not incompatible. Why are you having so much trouble with that? Employees in any location can try to negotiate. The employer is free to ignore them.

The employees own their labor and are free to sell it. That remains true in all cases.

It all comes down to the truth that your sort of person can't accept: Employers own their businesses. Not the employees. Not the government.

Let's examine your statement "Employers can't produce or sell goods without labor. It's simple supply and demand. To suggest otherwise, as you often do, is a egregious misunderstanding of a market-based system."

As of August 3, 2012, there are 12.8 million Americans out of work. That number is from the United States Bureau Of Labor Statistics. And also from the BLS website, there are 7.2 million private sector union members in the United States.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm/

Therefore, a SUPPLY of labor has flooded the market because demand for labor is down. It stands to reason that the price paid for labor will also go down since there is so much "spare" labor flooding the market.

The price for ALL labor MUST fall. "To suggest otherwise, as you often do, is a egregious misunderstanding of a market-based system."

That includes the extorted labor rates of Unions. For every overpaid union employee, there are now about 2 UNEMPLOYED people who are willing to do that "union" job for less money.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

I don't disagree with anything you said libby, right up to the "extortion" remark. That's ridiculous. Union wages are negotiated, and thus by definition AGREED upon by the employer.

Pink Slip

Pinkie, you know full well that these negotiations are FORCED upon the employer by law. There's a card check, and after that, the employer is forced to "negotiate" with the union. And he can't even negotiate even if he wanted to, since if he disagrees with anything, the union forces "arbitration", which is the real obscenity here. In effect, the employer no longer owned his business; the union and government took partial ownership by virtue of these sort of frankly unconstitutional laws.

when private sector union membership is in single digits as a percentage of all workers? How is it that with all of the government support you imply they have, union membership is so low?

The truth is that giant corporations dominate the political scene and the economy. Giant corporations are the least patriotic organizations in America. Giant corporations were behind legislation during "W's" presidency that gives corporations tax incentives to close manufacturing plants in America, and open them in other nations, shipping American jobs to foreign shores.

But, this doesn't fit neatly into the right-wing vision of America. So no matter how low union membership drops, people like GZ still want to blame unions for all of the nation's ills. If unions were at fault, with private sector union membership the lowest they've been in 100 years, America should be prospering like never before.

So, GZ, keep "beating the dead horse" of unionism, as long as people will listen. When union membership drops to zero per cent, and our economy is still floundering, who will you blame then?

The truth keeps staring you in the face, and we keep telling you, but you never acknowledge it. To wit:

Private unions have declined so much since they are company killers.

When your union-killed factory closes and 230 guys take a walk, that's 230 people who are no longer union members. Unless you'd like to propose they remain in the union while unemployed? Hmmm?

My vision for America is neither right nor left. It's exactly in the middle, the Third Wing. It revolves around the real middle class (not your disgusting Golden Class of entitled whiners who know little about constitutional law but know every period and comma in their labor "contract").

Unions were supposed to manage the downgrading of American wages in the inevitable and inescapable face of globalism. They did nothing of the sort. They keep demanding more, More, MORE, until they killed the companies they were part of. So those staunch union guys became unemployed losers (their only real place in life).

... except for the hundreds of thousands that fled into the public unions, which grew %-wise as the private ones shrunk. I really don't give a damn about private unions, except to assert ownership rights on the part of the employer; it's the public unions that are directly costing me money, and that's an obscenity beyond all endurance.

So we're coming for the public unions, and we WILL destroy them. We have every right to destroy them. After all, we pay for "both" sides, hence by virtue of ownership rights... ah, you're not even listening anymore. Feh. As soon as I said "ownership" your neurons short-circuited.

when public policy favors the giant international corporations which will operate their manufacturing plants wherever the workers will work the cheapest, and wherever regulations are unenforced. The destruction of private sector unions was a top-down victory for the super-rich in an ongoing class war.

The actions you favor bring American workers down to the lowest levels in the world. I favor lifting workers in foreign lands up. This and only this will improve conditions for workers everywhere and resurrect the middle class in America.

Statistics prove that the willingness of American workers to work hard -- overall -- is unmatched in the industrialized world.

We can't have a middle class in the nation anymore, for a variety of reasons.

Structurally, we have to match the global wage. It's called "competition". Since you're in the Golden Class, you have no real idea what that word means in economics, so go and look it up.

In addition, we can't enforce the idea of a middle class by legislative fiat since that can't work. Capital will just flee. Capital is free to move.

And finally, the middle class is "doing it" to itself. When a cheaper price appears on a product using overseas labor, the middle class buys it up in droves, shoving domestic production aside. That's the first tine on the fork; the second tine is when the middle class tries to become rich by investing in the companies that work to those ends. And the third tine on the fork upon which our livers are speared, is when the middle class notices its standard of living can't "keep up" on income alone, so it starts borrowing massively.

The idea that you can keep American worker standards high, while "lifting" foreign workers up, probably has an official name. But I'll call it "artificial inflation". It's inflation by fiat, and it doesn't work. It's never worked. That's why it probably has an official name. "Price controls" is another name, albeit partial.

The reality is that the global wage is lower than the US average wage, by a significant factor. I can tell you're a public school teacher, since you're not good at math. When an entire process as large as one taking billions of people into account, is averaged, you find the inevitable tendency for the average to be brought DOWN from the high end. This is because economic forces flow TOWARDS the average value. Your Golden Class imagines that the high end will be artificially chained to a post so that it doesn't move, so that the low end simply rises. That's totally stupid. Nothing in history supports it, except your selfish desires.

You cannot spend your way out of recession any more than you can borrow your way out of debt. But we know this already, how hard of a concept is this.
The dot.com bubble bust was followed by a deliberate policy of inflation which was the principle cause of the present crisis. Look at Japan. They're twenty three years into it now. What started their problems? Inflation following the Plaza Accord. Let's keep going back. The 1970's and the begining of stagflation. The Keynesians said it couldn't happen. The cause? Inflation, trying to spend ourway out of recession. The Great Depression as well.The UK in 1977 took their begging bowl to the IMF. Two years later Paul Volcker was appointed Fed. Chairman in the USA. Inflation was not creating jobs just higher prices. He called a halt to it and let interest rates rise. Jimmy Carter didn't get a second term. Career politicians made a note of this.
History tells us that the cause of such problems is inflation made possible by fiat money. It's all lies, deceit, smoke and mirrors. They can't even say the words printing money instead it's called quantitative easing, More doublespeak, the Mushroom Principle keep them in the dark and feed them BS!

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

Which foreign lands? China? Africa? South America? There's a lot of land just in those there.

MikeyA

That brings up another issue for Dale-the-Dimwit: There are 4 times as many people in China than in the USA. They must be experiencing a much larger unemployment issue than we are, for obvious reasons. So how can you:

1. Compel China to "lift their workers" up, since you have no power over them, and in fact nobody in the USA has power over them.

2. Justify demanding higher wages (as if you had that power) when there are so many unemployed in China?

I'm getting the nasty suspicion that Dale-the-Deceitful wants to export the union model, so that China ends up with its 1% (rich fucks) and 10% (union fucks), with the bottom ~90% being out-of-luck unemployed, poor, and working poor. Dale-boy's idea of price controls in the USA have resulted in the horrible aberration of the union model, where far too many thousands of people in cushy government jobs have no worries, but everyone below them does, mostly because of the huge cost of such a government (i.e. high taxes!).

Well, how is Dale-o going to export the union model to China? Hm? Especially considering that the Chinese government is autocratic?

WOW! You sure ascribe a lot of things to me that I never stated!
I DO NOT believe in price controls. I DO NOT believe that the anyone can dictate anything to the current Chinese leadership. I DO NOT accept that currently we have [your words] "...90% being out of luck, unemployed poor and working poor." What a gross distortion on your part.

If you think that the 1.3 billion Chinese people will forever continue to live in a politically repressed society, you're dead wrong! Why did China for decades limit the education it's citizens could get? For control. Mao knew that education is power. So he had the Chinese nation's schools fill untold hours of schooling with pro-Mao propaganda and severely limited the exposure of the Chinese people to information from the outside world. It has worked for a long time. It can't work forever. Your notions of suppression forever were stated consistently with regards to the former Soviet Union. What happened there?

You restate that your vision is one of bringing all industrialized workers down to the level of those in less developed economies. I know that we can bring others up. We'll have to agree to disagree on that issue. The difference is that I will not call you names, nor will I stoop to the use of profanity to express how off-base I believe you to be.

BTW -- Before I taught for 35 years, I was in retail business with my father for 15 years. In summers, I often worked two jobs. I worked in factories and delivered mail while attending college, and still working with my father. My degree is in Political Science, with a minor in Economics. I went back to school after I had my BA to get my teaching credentials. I worked from the age of 14, while attending school full-time. Pretty cushy life, I've had all righty!

"Golden" huh? My wife and I paid a higher percentage of our gross income in federal income taxes than did multi-billionaire, Willard! Who's really "Golden"?

Of course you believe in price controls, Dimwit Dale. You believe in government labor unions. Those set artificially high prices for labor that's steamrolled over the taxpayers. You want foreign nations to lift worker wages up (i.e. price controls) while keeping American wages high (i.e. price controls). That combination can't happen from market forces. Price controls are all you believe in, and they don't work.

The 1.2 billion Chinese don't have access to the massive petroleum input that fueled the American middle class and Golden Class. So they will remain pretty much as they are. The "Petroleum Input" was a one-time thing. It will never happen again (unless you believe in scifi where we build interdimensional doorways to other Earths with fresh petroleum deposits).

"We'll have to agree to disagree on that issue."

No, we will not agree on that, since I know I'm right from all of history and from that little thing you're not so good at (outside of a labor contract), called MATH. Americans can't keep wages high with respect to the world, and to no shock to people like myself, that's exactly what's happening. American wages are falling, as they must. There are too many billions of people in the world who can do much of the low-order work that we do here. Economics demands it, and so it has happened.

But oh no, you want to implement PRICE CONTROLS. Unbelievable. What university did you get your degree at, Dale? I have to write a letter of protest to it since their graduation process is clearly flawed. For a guy who even touched upon economics in college, your positions are either full of lies or stupidity. You have a chemical problem, or an ethical one.

And finally, yes, Golden Class, and you're in it. You're the 10%, and we're the 90%. You occupy a privileged position that's directly parasitical upon the rest of us. If you got your 30 pieces of pensioned silver from the private sector, I'd not breathe a word. But you're taking money from us by force; the force of government. It's long since time we put a stop to it.

GZ -- You're the one who seems to be mathematically challenged. I know that you have a warped sense of what public employees earn, but this is ridiculous.
It is blatantly unfair to compare those with college degrees to those without college degrees or the equivalent. But you're never interested in fairness. You only want to try to win an argument. My average salary over my 35 years of teaching would not even be in the top 50% of those with college degrees. Even in my highest years, I was only slightly above that average. Top 10%??
I didn't leave the private sector to make more money in the public sector. My first year salary as a teacher was so low that, if our child had been of school age, he would have qualified for a reduced-price lunch. My wife was not working outside of the home. A colleague of mine, at the same salary level, who had two children and whose wife also was not working outside of the home, qualified for food stamps. Yep! "Golden Class" for sure!

The only thing I can surmise is that you, GZ, cannot fathom any other reason to pursue employment other than to accumulate wealth. Most teachers and school-related personnel, most police officers, most fire fighters, and so many others, pursue a career in public service to do good. Yes. They want to earn enough to pay their bills, but being in the top 10%? Only if their spouse is doing really well on his/her own, and, of course, they stay married.

You are entitled to believe that 1.3 billion Chinese will remain docile sheep in perpetuity. The same was said of those who, a generation ago, populated the former Soviet Union and the Eastern European puppet states, too. Communism, in practice, is merely an excuse to justify a governmental cabal that severely limits freedoms. IMHO -- Communism is condemned to become buried in the scrapheap of history. You are certainly free to conclude otherwise.

GZ -- You envision a Dickensian world where workers drop to the lowest levels of poverty, while only the TRUE "Golden Class" of the top 2% [mostly the corporate elite] prosper. I am convinced that, just as the Dickensian world of the 19th Century evolved into a fairer system in Europe and America, so, too will Asia emerge from a modern Dickensian environment, and a middle class will re-emerge and expand worldwide.

Dale-o, your math skills are clearly lacking. Your salary (9 months of the year, with huge time off in those months anyway), benefits and pension clearly put you in the top 10% of the nation's workforce. You're the Golden Class. There's no other way to look at it. And we're going to get rid of you. Your pensions will be canceled or scaled down. Your Medicare will be cut. Math says we must, and so we will.

Pensions need to vanish, forever. All pension plans are designed to crash and burn. Math says so; it's not just an opinion. You can't keep loading up the pension plan with takers so that they come to outnumber the givers. This 8% standard assumption of ROI for pensions was another fraud enacted upon us. How do you get 8% ROI across the long term when economies only grow about 2.5%-3% over the same term? Only the crooks (like your union bosses) and the math-ignorant (like you) believed that would work.

The world I envision should be free of tax parasites like yourself. That, we can do something about. The private sector, we can't. That's why it's the private sector. If people want to keep buying stock and products from ever more elitist organizations, then that's their choice. After all, they were "educated" by the Golden Class, which satisfies a lot of questions about the ineptitude of general public. You were a direct part of that, Dale. You helped to mal-educate the public so that they continue to make terrible choices in life.

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