Who should be paid more teachers, firemen, police, or a high school educated talk show host?

Everyday our airwaves are polluted with the sounds of extremism. AM talk show hosts blather on about how union workers are overpaid and under worked. Really? Well through the wonders of the internet and the public record we can all now see through the haze of Speedy propaganda. I ask you should a talk show host who is on from 6:00 AM to 9:00 AM 5 days a week with a high school education be paid between $60,000 to $65,000 a year? This is happening while our teachers, firemen, and police (all having higher education beyond high school) are being attacked by this station as being overpaid.
My proof exhibit A:
http://lcapps.co.lucas.oh.us/OBPublicAccess/ViewPublicDocuments.aspx?PAQ...

http://co.lucas.oh.us/index.aspx?NID=99

http://rolandhansencommentary.blogspot.com/2012/03/fred-lefebvre-hypocri...

Your rating: None Average: 3.9 (15 votes)

Paul, why do you insist on reposting a divorce filing? I can answer your question easily enough. A high school educated talk show host working 6-9 each day should be paid whatever the private company which hires him is willing to pay, along with health care benefits and pension plans. None of those of course are paid for by the public directly so it is between the talk show host and the company.
The others mentioned in your list who include PUBLIC sector union employees should be paid whatever the municipality can afford to pay them without having to raise taxes on citizens to a level that causes them to move away thereby leaving fewer and fewer citizens to carry the weight of the budget on their backs.
Hope this helps. Maybe someone else can throw in their two cents.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

First of all, posting somebody's divorce filing is a little tacky Wolf...

Secondly, your dislike for 1370 is well known on this board, but do you really think comments on a posting board are going to, in some way, solve the income inequities in the nation?

Thirdly, in my mind, police and firemen are in a separate category from teachers. A dedicated and halfway intelligent mom or dad can homeschool their children through high school - for free. So the PUBLIC paying teachers - who work from late August to late May or early June - $90,000 a year (in some cases) is ridiculous. Furthermore, today's teaching degrees are lucky if they include as much actual education as high school diplomas of, say, the 1940's through 1960's.

Fred has covered public vs. private compensation. I have a lot more trouble with the salaries paid grown men who run up and down a wooden court in culottes, tossing a round ball through a metal hoop. Wow - we REALLY need those guys, and they are REALLY worth the millions they rake in. If the NFL closed shop tomorrow, we could do without them. Firemen and policemen, not so much.

So your whole premise is weak. By the way, the late Peter Jennings didn't go to college, and I'm sure made lots of money. Again - it's a matter of private compensation vs. public. If teachers want to make more, they should go into a more lucrative field. I've known some who have done just that. But it has always involved a lot more work time than 7:30 to 2:30 or 3:00 in the classroom for 9 months a year.

Then there's this:

http://overmanwarrior.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/successful-people-that-di...

First of all: I just retired after teaching 35 years, and I never came close to making a salary of $90,000...not even $70,000.

Second: Every generation wants to think that they had it harder than the younger generation. NOT TRUE!! The curriculum today is MUCH HARDER than it was when I attended school in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of my peers could graduate without ever taking Algebra or Geometry. These are not only required to get a high school diploma in Ohio now, many of these concepts are taught starting in grades 3 and 4!!

Third: Too many people think that the teacher's work day begins when the entry bell rings and ends when the dismissal bell rings. How sad! Most (not all) teachers spend 2-4 hours or more each school day grading papers and preparing for the school day to come. Many teachers work in the summers to supplement their teaching salaries. While some make more per day at summer jobs than they do teaching, most work temp jobs that pay lttle. In addition, teachers must take courses to renew their state license.

Fourth: Because of the pressure placed upon families today, teachers have to do so much more individual and family counseling and mediating now. This alone makes teaching a more difficult job than it was when I was a student!

Finally: About half of the people who start out in teaching leave within the first 5 years. Although I'm sure that many of these talented, college graduates do earn considerably more money in the private sector, one important factor is that they put their hearts and souls into a job which so few people appreciate. And teachers who work with the students with the most difficult problems are treated the worst, even though they often work much harder than do their peers in districts where students have less intractable problems.

Dale, she did say in some cases for the 90K, and yes it has happened. Please follow my links I provided.

"NOT TRUE!! The curriculum today is MUCH HARDER than it was when I attended school in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of my peers could graduate without ever taking Algebra or Geometry. These are not only required to get a high school diploma in Ohio now, many of these concepts are taught starting in grades 3 and 4!!"

This is part of the problem. I know a lot of h.s. students who are taking calculus, there is no reason for them to take calculus. Guestzero has some very thought provoking thoughts about the current cirriculum that I think should be explored.

"Most (not all) teachers spend 2-4 hours or more each school day grading papers and preparing for the school day to come. Many teachers work in the summers to supplement their teaching salaries. While some make more per day at summer jobs than they do teaching, most work temp jobs that pay lttle. In addition, teachers must take courses to renew their state license."

So they work 8-3 a six hour work day and then put in another 2 to four. WITH THREE MONTHS AND WEEKENDS OFF! How rough. I want 2-4 hours of take home work to be my big problem.

I know people who work 60-70 hours a week, all year, and must work weekend jobs. Teachers need to STFU and stop whining.

"teachers have to do so much more individual and family counseling and mediating now." Family counseling. Are you kidding me. Get over yourself.

"About half of the people who start out in teaching leave within the first 5 years. Although I'm sure that many of these talented, college graduates do earn considerably more money in the private sector, one important factor is that they put their hearts and souls into a job which so few people appreciate." No it's because most of them are smart enough to then realize that they can make more money elsewhere and do. That the entry level 33K won't pay off the student loans.

What we need is the State/school districts to buck up and quit giving teachers pay raises and instead create a system where a new teacher gets X dollars of a student loan paid for by the state for Y number of years of work.

That way teachers can stop bitching about their pay and instead of the good teachers fleeing for the private sector there's motivation to stay for a few years, by the time their loans are paid off they're well on their way to a career and if they leave they'd be replaced by another bright young individual instead of the seniority network we have now that is failing the students.

MikeyA

It is impossible to respond rationally to what you write. The bottom line seems to be, you have little respect as to how hard the job of teaching has become.

When you've had a mother, who's a former student, sitting in front of you crying over her son who is a current student, you know what I mean about family counseling. Last school year, my last year teaching, I probably averaged weekly 6-8 phone calls home and/or meetings with parents about dealing with the problems their children were having. The overwhelming percentage of parents were supportive and appreciative and trying hard to parent well. But, the extended family system we had in this country when I was growing up exists for very few today. I was like a grandparent the parent could come to for advice. I doubt that I would have done as much of this in a more affluent system, but I bet those teachers do more than their share of family counseling as well.

Your last statement is so typical and ludicrous that I'll try a rational response. In every other professional field, experience is prized. I've seen want ads that have stated, "No experience required," but I've never seen one that stated, "Experience a detriment", or "Priority given to those with no experience".

If you had a tax problem, would you seek out the cheapest, young accountant with the least amount of experience? If you needed an operation, would you choose a surgeon who could count the times (s)he had done that surgery on one hand? Then why would you want an inexperienced young teacher to replace an experienced one? I didn't enter the teaching profession until after I had worked in the private sector for 15 years. Even so, I found that being a lttle older, my life experience helped me to be a better teacher than I would have been when I graduated from college at age 22. After I had been teaching about five years, I really felt comfortable that I had improved my preparation and organizational skills. While I was motivated to do well from day one, the experience helped me to have a well-constructed lesson almost every day and to find a better way to reach each new group and each individual. I also became more flexible in reacting to changing situations for which one can never plan.

I guess that you want us to have great teachers, you just don't want to pay enough to attract them and keep them in the classroom. And, BTW, inTPS, with the Toledo Plan peer evaluation system, experienced teachers may lose and have lost their jobs with the full partnership of the teachers' union to either have them improve, or fire them. Most leave the profession, but many find jobs in other school districts where standards for teachers are not so high and where the teaching situation is not so difficult, or, unlike the Toledo Federation of Teachers, the union fights to the end to save their jobs, unless they have done something outrageous. Judging a school district by tests alone, is like judging the quality of policing by the crime rate. There are too many factors beyond the control of teachers and police officers to do this fairly.

Dale,

What you described is NOT family counseling. Please contact a family counselor and you can ask them about what it really is. So again, get over yourself.

2nd paragraph: Our schools have gone down the last 40+ years at an alarming rate, those experienced teachers have FAILED!

3rd paragraph: Again our schools have FAILED! Time to change the paradigm.

4th paragraph: Quit comparing Teachers with Police. They are not the same.

Additionally you criticize what I propose yet what you offer is nothing new and is the same system that is FAILING our students. Our kids are getting dumber yet you want to keep the status quo when dealing with our teachers. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity.

MikeyA

The comparison to police officers was only as to how to judge their work. If one overlays two maps of the Toledo area, one gets a better idea of the difference in teaching in various parts of Toledo. Map one would be the relative test scores by neighborhood. Map two would be the crime rate by neighborhood. Many students face such difficult daily challenges that they need more help of all kinds to achieve well in school. And I have offered something new. Bring more community resources into the central city schools to help the students and their families. I never said that I'm a miracle worker and worked wonders counseling parents and families. I said that teachers supply this service because it's needed. Let's bring in the professionals in this area to help!

Again, I'll give you a real life example. Back in the 1980s in the Rockville, Illinois School District of about 60,000 students, the parents of students in the inner city were upset because they had the "bad teachers" in the district. What else could explain why their children's test scores were so low compared to the students attending suburban-type schools on the city's fringe? So, the school district paired schools and, with very few exceptions, switched faculties. The central city activist parents were thrilled! The next year, the students were administered the same set of nationally normed standardized tests. The results were that the suburban-like schools' test scores were insignificantly different than the year before. The central city schools' test scores were somewhat lower, not greatly, but to a statistically significant degree.

Here's another real life example. I once was discussing with a long time (40 year) Ottawa Hills teacher about how much I improved as a teacher when I moved from a central city school to a more suburban-like school, because the test scores of my students were so much higher than they had been! He said, "I'll go you one better. I used to teach in Toledo's central city. The test scores of my students were right at the bottom of the whole area. I guess I was a terrible teacher there. I'm now one of the best teachers in Ohio because look at the test scores my students rack up!" We both agreed that we worked at least as hard, if not harder when we taught in the central city.

Judging teaching by test scores alone is the paradigm that needs to be broken!

"Judging teaching by test scores alone is the paradigm that needs to be broken!" Said like a true blue union lackey that doesn't want accountability. LOL

1st paragraph: Convenient store workers also face more threats in those areas, so should they get paid more? The truth is, and you should know this, socieo-economic standing is the biggest predictor of academic results and propensity for crime this is an environmental control variable. So, that is why Charter schools and school vouchers make sense they shuffle the environmental variable.

There are several studies that back this up. Take a kid who doesn't test well, put him in a class of smart kids, he will rise to them because of the environment. Similarly take a smart kid and put him with the dunces he will progressively test lower. Charter schools and school vouchers intermingle the environments.

2nd paragraph: See above.

3rd paragraph: Again environmental variables.

I never judge by test scores alone. However I do favor results-based incentives. ANY teacher can overcome or be overcome by environmental variables. It happens everywhere. It's called statistical noise.

However seniority based incentives, which the unionists prefer, is a formula for disaster and the results have been shown and widely documented. The unionists conveniently ignore this data.

MikeyA

As pointed out in the recent Blade article: "The proposed system is not a boon to the charter school movement. Although 76% of traditional schools scored a C or above, only 22% of charter schools did so." In addition, studies in places like Milwaukee and Cleveland which factor in the "...socio-economic standing" that you state is "...the biggest predictor of academic results", show that students attending privately-run schools using school vouchers do no better than those who stayed in the public schools.

Mikey, don't alter my words to fit your argument! I never said to NOT hold teachers and schools accountable. You quoted me correctly that the paradigm that needs to be broken is the one that we use to judge teaching "...by test scores ALONE".

I know that you love things that are accepted as common knowledge and hate statistics. BTW...what about that brand new, enthusiastic accountant to help you with that tax problem? What about that brand-spanking new surgeon to tackle your medical issue?

Here's another real-life example. This one is from the [cue the harps with angels singing, please] Holy-of-Holies -- private sector. One of the teachers with whom I taught back in the 1970s and 1980s was married to a great guy who was working for a private company that ran a chain of discount department stores, including two or three in the Toledo area. No it's not Wally or K. They weren't that big, but they were non-union, thank goodness! He was very proud of this, too! He started working for them while he was still in high school, so even though he was quite young, he was getting close to qualifying for all kinds of bonuses as he approached the age of 40 with more than 20 years with the company. Every single evaluation he had had up until that time had been nothing but excellent! All of a sudden, his supervisor gave him a very poor evaluation, followed closely by a second poor evaluation. Within a few months he was fired, with no reasonable severance, He had to start all over again at an age where people start to have a hard time getting hired in, because of age concerns.

That's why unions are needed to protect experienced workers! And, I point out once again, in TPS experienced teachers are removed from the payroll almost every year WITH THE HELP OF THE TEACHERS' UNION through the Intervention portion of the Toledo Plan! An experienced teacher may be placed into the Intervention Program by either the principal OR the Union Building Committee, yet almost every experienced teacher placed into Intervention is done so as a JOINT recommendation!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Mikey...don't let facts get in the way of your opinions!

Fred this is in response to what I believe is nothing more than propaganda and hypocrisy. We see that your station and other media outlets report what PRIVATE auto workers make in wages and feel this should be public knowledge yet when the truth comes out about "other" high school educated workers making more than auto workers with less hours worked... well... you don't see the hypocrisy! Please stay on the theme of this thread Fred. Which is who should be paid more?

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Here's your answer Paul. Your intial post names "teachers, firemen, and police " and says nothing about PRIVATE auto workers which you have just added. So let's take each in turn. I should make as much as CC is willing to pay me for my services since I am a private employee, and they are a private company. Teachers, police, firefighters and other PUBLIC sector employees should be paid whatever the municipality decides it can afford realizing it has no money except tax payer dollars.
Auto workers should get paid whatever the union bargains for them since they are unable and unwilling to bargain for themselves. In the case of any auto manufacturer that is partly owned by taxpayers such as GM then taxpayers should know what the salaries are.
I have no problem with auto workers making $100 an hour if they can get it, and in turn they should no problem with me saying that the cost of a car is directly related to that salary. I can't tell GM, Chrysler, or Ford what to pay their help, but I can make a car buying decision based on the price of the car made by those companies.
I hope this is easy enough to understand. Now if you wanted a dollar figure on what these jobs should be paid, that's not gonna happen because that's for the companies and municipalities to decide, not me, not you.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

You make it sound like Fred only works 3 hours a day. Thats false. Mumbles got him doing research throughout the day. Fred can't leave the house and has to call into mubbles show at approx. 5:30 everyday to fill up dead air time and talk about something that Fred researched doing the day. Seems more like a 12 hour day if you axe me.

What's sad is if talk show hosts were unionized wolfman would be all about them getting paid more money.

MikeyA

The Wolfman has been "deactivated" and the blog removed after Fred cried foul to the TT administrator. Seems to be a double standard. He forgets his recent foray into what's free speech on the internet.

Fred's recent post:

It's public record Paul. The
Submitted by fred on Thu, 2012-03-08 10:42.
It's public record Paul. The use of the pic, which is from the internet, could be considered fair usage since it was posted on the internet a very public site.
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
reply
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http://swampbubbles.com/blog_this_michael_miller_takes_on_anonymous_post...

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

boo hoo.

If you thought you had free speech on someone else's site you are an idiot.

MikeyA

I did not ask for you to be removed. That was the administrators choice, not mine. As you can see here and there actually I answered your question about pay. You choose to ignore the difference between private and public sector.
I have no problem with how much auto workers make, in fact I don't know what they make unless it's make public in a news story about their bonuses. Police, firefighters, teacher salaries should be made public because the public pays those salaries.
Auto workers should have the right to either join or not join a union however when applying for a job.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Au contraire! You did contact the administrator. And you did complain about my post of the public court doc link even though I didn't mention your problems. Are you saying you didn't? What was said in private e-mails? What were you asking for Fred?

Same old thing that's happened at Speedy. You hang up on those you don't agree with or pot over them when they talk. If they agree with you give em a prize. You take my comments out of context and make a radio commercial! I know It's been done to me and others that I know of. Then you fire Mark Levin cause you don't agree with him. You think that's in the public interest?

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

I did contact the administator and did give my opinion on the lack of tact in the post. I did not and would not ask for it to be removed or for you to be censored. I think people need to see you for what you are.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Like calling the kettle black! Fred daily you and your ilk amaze me. You've done all what I've mentioned above in a very public way with a larger audience and then you have the audacity to claim lack of tact...funny! You need some serious therapy or a sabbatical from that nut job station.

Here's the record of your posts to the administrator. This in my opinion lead to my deactivated account after Fred complained. If you look at the March 12th postings you'll find evidence of what I say. The two damning posts have been deleted! One was the thread I created on TT, "Who should be paid more teachers, firemen, police, or a high school educated talk show host?" and the second one,"Lewiki:Contact" complaining to the TT administrator. Check the following link for yourself!
http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/stream/fred

fred added comment to Lewiki:Contact on Mar 12, 2012 at 12:49:55 pm
http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/stream/fred

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Isn't this like the third time you've posted the same post? What do you do keep editing it until you get it right? Why don't you just post the damning evidence you have of me asking for you to be deactivated? Oh, I know why because you don't have anything other that this and it proves nothing.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Yes crying like a baby to the regulator of TT when the shoe is on the other foot. I thought regulation was bad? Kind of like being the Unofficial Documentarian of Occupy Toledo http://swampbubbles.com/20111121/occupy-toledo-entering-phase-ii . It's OK to make fun of anyone and everyone except for when you have a life event then...well... that's different!
And yet another Unofficial Documentarian of Occupy Toledo post. http://swampbubbles.com/20111101/occupy-council-epic-fail

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

I clicked on both links anxious to see the proof of my asking TT to deactivate the wolfman's account only to be disappointed once again. It appears that although the wolfman can share a link that I posted to wiki whatever, he is still unable to prove that I asked for his removal. c'est la vie

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

I thought we were discussing private vs. public employees and compensation? When did this become about Fred possibly or possibly not having a post removed? You seem to be the one that can't stick to the subject...

The fact that we pay people so much more to entertain us than we do to protect us or prepare our future leaders, says a lot about our nation's values. This entertainment can be in many forms: radio, TV, movies, sports, music, art, literature,etc. It is profoundly sad that private firms can pay so much to those who bash safety officials and educators, but as long as advertisers are happy, this will continue.

And we get what we pay for. Without a doubt, the United States has the best entertainment in the world!

"The fact that we pay people so much more to entertain us than we do to protect us or prepare our future leaders, says a lot about our nation's values."
Oh really.

So you're against the president's cuts to the military since they are the people who protect us and get paid less than radio show hosts (who are paid on average less than the average teacher).

Radio DJ (Major Market avg): 20-40K http://www.ehow.com/info_8094628_much-dj-radio-station-make.html
Teacher (elem-hs avg): 47-51K http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_teacher_earn
Military member: 27K (NCO over 2 years experience -avg of the fighting force)

MikeyA

Could you clarify what you mean re: military member pay?
Are you stating that the average of the fighting force has just two years experience?
And someone with just two years experience is an NCO?
Just curious what you are using as an example.
Some other factors you may not be including but which are quite pertinent.
The pay is supplemented by subsistence allowance which is 323.87/month or 3886.44 per year tax free. Also, BAH, or housing allowance is profoundly more. An E5 with dependents (married and/or with any children, living in Toledo (for example, it is based on location) would earn an additional 945/month or 11, 340 per year - also tax free.
So in this example, a military members "pay" would be supplemented by an additional $15000 in tax free income.
Oh, and even though we've disagreed on this before - military members receive free healthcare - that is worth quite a bit in the private sector.

Progress,

I was going by the average military member. The average military member is 22 yrs old between 2 and 4 years service and is generally and E3 or E4, I went higher and showed the pay for an E4.

Now BAH is not pay because all do not rate it. For example if I were a 22 yr old Corporal with 3 years time in service and lived in the barracks I do not rate any BAH. And BAS or Basic Allowance for Sustenance in this example yes I do get paid 327.87 per month but my pay would also be checked over $270.00 because if I live in the barracks I would then have a chow hall near me. Also if you're married and you live in base housing your BAH is fully checked. The only people who do not is dual military families but they are trying to close that loophole as well - it's currently hotly debated.

And no military members pay is checked for healthcare. Currently it's about $467 a year but under what the current administration has proposed this would increase by over 6 times and would end up being roughly $3K per year. This number is not yet settled because it's what the current administration is proposing.

MikeyA

It is my opinion that teachers and public safety personnel should be paid more than a radio talk show host.

Thank you Roland Hansen! I agree and as I was saying on the "deactivated" and deleted TT blog we can include TV personalities, sport athletes, and rock stars!

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

the teachers, police and firemen are all union members and voluntarily have money taken out of their paycheck to have people negotiate their pay for them.

Talk show hosts are paid on results, ie the talk show hosts get paid based on their listenership - no listenership = no advertizers = no more talk show host.

Do you think teachers should get paid on results? ie graduation rates?

Union members have union dues deducted from their paychecks. It's a mandatory deduction, just like the mandatory membership. There isn't anything voluntary about it.

I believe that having teachers get paid by the results they achieve is an excellent idea. This may be an unpopular idea with some people, or even a particular segment of the populace - but I think it has real merit and I'd be willing to support it.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Agreed, and they should bargain for what they get the same way radio talk show hosts do then.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

It is my opinion that radio talk show hosts, teachers, and public safety personnel should ALL be paid more than a UAW worker who installs a rear view mirror, tire, steering wheel, etc.

How do you know you've been deactivated, were you notified? You do know TT has been re-formated a little bit, and the "politics" section isn't listed on the front page anymore?

"How do you know you've been deactivated, were you notified?"

Yes! Had the same blog as this going and Fred contacted the administrator and complained about the blog.

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

This is jealousy, pure and simple. Wolfman hates Rush as well, who also didn't attend college. A splendid example of the lefts' politics of envy, I must say.

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary you can put in a name of a school and see for yourself who's making what....
For instance the top 30 all make more than $60,000 a year Paul. Most worked 190 days, some 202 or 232. Hope this helps you decide who should be paid more.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Did you really go whine to Chris about public records pertaining to your divorce being disclosed here?

Haven't whined to anyone. As you can see I've actually answered Paul's questions about wages, and all posts are still up. I have no control over this or any other blog site in Toledo. What administrators choose to do is up to them. If Paul has proof that I asked for him to be silenced I'd like to see it posted here. Otherwise he should shut up about it.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Date & time posted March 12, 2012 at 01:31:40 pm to the administrator.
For all those who follow this my account has been deactivated at TT. My last post and deleted blog (similar to this one) was on Mar 12, 2012. Reasons not explained to me but I can guess. I could post his comments but choose not to. I think it has been covered very well. Only wish to reference the disparity of pay for Teachers, police, firemen and nurses compared to a high schooled talk show host.

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Of course you do.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

"I did contact the administator and did give my opinion on the lack of tact in the post".

This sounds like it be interpreted as whining, but whatever you say...

It may have have lacked tact, that I agree with. On the flip side, while you're not a public-sector employee, you are a 'public figure', since you're known on here as Fred LeFebvre of WSPD and have used that connection to promote your shows and your station in general. You've also been a staunch advocate of non-anonymous posting on this site, have ridiculed others for 'hiding' behind fake screennames and the like, and it's more than a little amusing now to see that it's bitten you in the ass---at least to the point where you felt the need to ummm, "contact the administrator"...

You can view it however you like your opinion doesn't mean that much to me or I'd be hanging out with you and asking what you thought. Just as any poster on here has the right to contact an administrator when their family is personally brought into the mix, that's what I did. Now you may not understand this next part....I am a public figure, my wife is not. If Paul wants to tell people how much I make to make some pont more power to him, my wife however has never posted and is not a public figure.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

at least now you might have more empathy towards those who choose to be anonymous when posting on blogs. Public records are just that...potential public knowledge...and when you decide to take the other road---trumpeting your real name, employer, etc.---you risk opening yourself up to things that may be uncomfortable for you when someone decides to...'shine a light'.

Yes McCaskey but you must agree that wolfman could have just posted the information and said where he got it from without the link. That way only those who were truly motivated could have gone and found it.

Secondly, Paul has made complaints about pictures he's posted that fred later used as a violation of Paul's privacy. Paul wants a "everyone but me" take to standards and ethics.

Third, I think we all need to band together to prevent these type of postings. There are several (Paul, Roland, Twyla) who want my personal information. I can deduce there is no other reason than to try to intimidate me from posting my feelings. Roland has posted the information about my server in an Epic failure of attempted intimidation. They feel because they gave up their anonymity that no one should have it. I protect my anonymity. I am more than willing to allow people who I've personally come in contact with (chris, fred, madjack, dave schulz) to verify if what I post is truthful/credible but this is not enough for them.

Now McC, you know I'm fair. I don't want you, Pink, or Sensor's information out there because I respect your anonymity. I could post google earth photo's of Paul's house or even the blueprints to his house under the guise of "it's all public record" but you and I both know it would be wrong.

What those of us need to do is to band together and tell chris that postings like that should NOT be tolerated as they will silence viewpoints on this site. It's a protection and courtesy we should all extend each other.

MikeyA

I am more than willing to allow people who I've personally come in contact with (chris, fred, madjack, dave schulz)...

I know nothing. I saw nothing. I have no RADAR signature. I am thoroughly beneath notice...

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Remember the time when Fred posted my E-mail address here on SwampBubbles and encouraged the public to contact me and my wife. Yes my wife and I share that E-mail address. So just back up the Fred clown car and dump it on my family E-mail.

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Paul, I don't recall seeing your email. And yes if it is as you report it to be I would be against it.

However you must admit you have been against people on here posting anonymously and challenged them to out themselves. I am well on record why I won't post my name on here and you are one of the people that caused my concerns.

This is not about protecting fred. Again fred does just fine on his own and doesn't need me. This is about an ethical standard throughout the board. You, sir, have time and time again shown a lack of ethics and standards. For you there is no boundary you have shown you are not unwilling to cross. The only other poster I can think of with such a lack of respect would be the one also referred to as Ty Coon.

You have an obsession and it drives you to do things that are not normal.

MikeyA

MikeyA don't give me your pompous anonymous crap. You sure are not perfect here. You have trolled the internet stalking for info and piling on other places as you are right now. I only respond in kind when people like you do the gutless hit and run attack on me. I'll give Fred credit for the guts to post here continually using the same name. Your advice to change to a spineless anonymous new name when outed says a lot about you. Sir!

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

I have not trolled the internet Paul. I go onto Toledo websites because I am a Lucas County resident and voter. I don't stalk local radio personalities. You, however, do not live in Toledo or Ohio for that matter yet you continually troll Ohio websites about Ohio issues like SB5 of which you have no fight in.

Gutless hit and run attacks eh? How many threads have you started about something Fred or Brian talk about on their show?

Yes my advice says I believe people's identity does not need to be public knowledge in these forums in order for their opinion to be valid. I don't know if that's a lot about me but it is at least one thing.

MikeyA

Do you disregard what Pink, Sensor or I post on here because we don't use our 'real names' or is it only the 'other side' that can't be anonymous?

a comment or a post. I get a couple a week.

Who owns and operates Toledo Talk?

He/she has never had local political aspirations---at least that we know of---or a radio show/station to constantly promote.

This a reply to Bucknut about who is the punk ass that runs or "owns" TT. aka junior.

I think he is a birdwatcher fag that lives in a Black Swamp!

Who owns and operates Toledo Talk?

Now, if that were any of your business, you'd know, wouldn't you? You wouldn't be asking. But since you don't know, that makes it, what -

none of your business!

Ass.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

FUCK YOU! It was a simple question that I asked because I rarely go there and am not a member. I didn't realize it is a nuclear launch code secret.

ASS!!!!

Like you - not a member, and rarely read that site. You kind of have to be a long-time member to keep up with the personalities there. BUT, several years ago I did read it more frequently. I DO believe strongly in anonymity on the web [which is why I do not have a facebook account]. I know actual instances of individuals being stalked & in one instance having a car stolen and a tracking device installed. It is a personal decision to reveal identity - in my opinion, however, stupid to reveal. Because discussion inevitably become about who somebody is, rather than diverse views on a topic.

Here are a few things that I recall about TT some years ago. JR, whoever he may be, decided at one point that people posting on his site should get together and meet. He kind of tried to nudge people to do this - you know, meet and reveal identities - and he would comments about who he thought would and wouldn't be willing to do it. Long story short, a meetup was finally scheduled. Only 2 posters showed up (they told this on-line, without revealing names) - JR, whose idea it was to begin with, was a no-show. Surprise surprise surprise. He had obviously thought better of his own idea. He also said at one point that it wasn't a secret who he was, because there had been some write-up in the Blade about him. I don't know anyone who knows who he is or who has read this write-up.

The very first (to my knowledge) blogger who set up a site where you could post, was a site where, some believe, JR kind of "lifted" the name for his site (dropping one letter). It was called "Toledo Talks". The Blade DID identify that site owner. Trolls eventually destroyed the site completely. The guy was a nice honest guy with a good idea, but it was an early "entry" into the blogosphere, and he didn't have any safeguards set up, and he should have remained anonymous in my opinion. Web site owner often make sure that you cannot find their personal info on-line. It's been a live-and-learn process since approx. 2000. Personally I think JR is more than a little "cagey" about his identity. He obviously wants to remain anonymous, which is fine - but still can't forget all the cajoling he did to have people meet and self-identify, and then was a no-show to his own proposed get-together. That is when I stopped reading that site for the most part - it was too "fork-tongued" for me. But you will find that a few of his contributors protect like they were the palace guard.

You should have just stopped after the first paragraph.

Many on here are or have been regular TT posters. Several personally know or have met JR. In fact several meet ups have occured at The Distillery because the owner there is a TT regular. The meet ups have not encouraged the lack of respect you claim. I can only think of one person where it harbored the ill feelings you speak of.

Speaking of that poster. Good night Darkseid where ever you are.

MikeyA

He has a "palace guard", as you can plainly see.

Sorry, MA, I don't worship at the JR altar. And he DID more or less steal his site name from an earlier, and in my opinion, more honest blog owner. Which was clever, if not admirable. That way, anyone trying to access Toledo Talks, after it had been shut down, was sort of re-directed to Toledotalk, in the way the internet search engines tend to do. That's how I bumped into TT years ago.... I was looking for Toledotalks.

Again, Bucknut, you would think this guy was a deity, rather than a blog owner.

Too funny...

I was going to avoid this thread because it's devolved so fast it’s making my head spin.

I in fact had post the link to Fred’s family issues several months ago and thought better of it. I had Chris delete my post and all responses do to privacy concerns to Fred’s wife. After all she’s married to Fred, hasn’t she suffered enough?

FG, you admit you don’t follow Toledo Talk, but criticize its proprietor and its participants. It’s been a while since we had a meet up, but the last one I went to was well attended with HistoryMike, MJ, GZ, KO, Trilby, Mariner and a couple of others. We had a fine time and it had nothing to do with JR.

As I remember it, JR didn't really promote the meeting. I think he (she?) had some sort of family emergency come up that required his attention.

Yeah, it was a good time. There have been several other meetings since, all of which were enjoyable. I'm glad I went.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

I'm not really criticizing any of the participants. My comments are based on what I read back several years, obviously, because I know nothing about meet-ups after that initial one - so my issues with things I observed about JR, are from back then. There were several things that were just plain fishy (on the part of the blog owner), and I won't elaborate here. Some of the news postings and opinions by contributors to TT, however, are interesting, but there are only so many hours in the day. If 2 other non-regional ones were still up and running, I'd be over there opinionating, probably, instead of locally (I used to like the now-defunct one at howstuffworks.com and a game one where you could type comments as you played. Both had to be discontinued due to non-stop troll activities.) I like swampbubbles BECAUSE the blog owner doesn't try to control posters' opinions. He shows remarkable restraint.

I read it TT only VERY occasionally now, as I will click in to see if anybody posts something about local Toledo news. See, I buy the local paper maybe once or twice a month... same with Detroit metro region, because I am from there originally, and like to keep up with basics up there.

I've never known JR to try to control poster's opinion's. He does require civil discourse.

Most of the posters here became aquainted at TT and migrated to SB when chris created it or shortly thereafter.

You'll have to cite what exactly about JR doesn't pass the smell test. We are not his protectors and are defending him because we know him to be a fair minded individual. JR can and does defend himself and would obligate not a one of us.

MikeyA

There was a comment on here about 10 days ago from a 'Darkseid'. I replied to his comment, trying to draw him out, but that was as far as it went. I miss the venom...

And farmergal, you don't have a clue as to the TT meet-ups. jr never 'initiated' or 'promoted' the idea of members getting together. It was done by members themselves. No, I didn't go, but I'm familiar with the threads where the idea was discussed. jr had next to no influence, besides one time I believe suggesting Downtown Latte as a possible meeting site.

I fear we are talking to a brick wall because she has a biased opinion because her friends site was taken down by the huge conglomerate of one man with a website.

MikeyA

I was feeling over-worked with job and children-raising at the time. Didn't have the energy to follow through with actually meeting new people beyond our existing circle of friends. It was enough for me to sit in front of a computer watching and sometimes participating in discussions, whereever they would lead. My recollection is I gained knowledge from and respect for even the people I disagreed with, some of them anyway, but Lord knows I enjoyed the sparring and the banter and Darkseid's creative usage of my screenname---'McCasket', "McAsskisser' etc., followed by a heart-felt invitation to 'suck my balls' , ha-ha. Those were the days, those early days of TT. It was relatively new, and it was fun.

Yeah, I saw that as well. I'm not sure it was him - but who knows? Seems like he'd take a few minutes to renew old acquaintances, even if it were a one line insult.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

whether it was actually him. The writing 'style' was different, to say the least. But unless someone's playing a joke, why would anyone else use that screenname?

right where the sun don't shine and use a bucket of sand to make it fit better.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

You need a life dude. You rudely go off on an honest question from someone not "in the know" about the site. Who knows why? Maybe you missed your last circle jerk with others from there. I don't know. The two blogs I follow(ed) are this and Lisa Renee's, both were up front about themselves running the blog. Now go get your panties un-waded out of your mouth and calm down.

You{admin edit} liar. You're on SB which means you may be clueless, ignorant and dumber than a box of rocks, but your question is a long way from innocent. {admin edit} artist. I'm sure you and Lisa Renee have a lot in common.

{admin edit - clean it up Madjack}

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Whatever you say mister mindreader. Tell me how I'm supposed to know ownership there is so covert? Sounds like he's kind of a pussy though after reading this thread. Probably why you like and defend him so much.

Why do we need to bring people's private lives into a blog? Not only is it mean-spirited, it serves no purpose. How very sad and pathetic.

but if you're going to be dumb enough to furnish personal information in a public forum that often takes on the aspects of the food-fight in Animal House---ie. this site---more's the pity.

Several years ago on here, and perhaps more recently, Fred enjoyed lambasting anyone who didn't use his/her actual name when posting a topic or comment.

Still feel that's the way to go, Fredo?

Yes I do Mccaskey.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

You know, Fred, if you want to reveal your identity to a amphitheater full of people knowing, right up front, that some of them aren't wound too tight, be my guest. I'll even applaud your foolish behavior, if that's what your ego craves. Just don't insist that the rest of us follow your lead into the ocean.

HistoryMike reveled his identity and as a result one user made a few threats about coming over to his house and beating him up. I'm sure Mike worries about that threat with the same care and concern he gives to a burned out kitchen appliance, but in another event Mike did get credible threats from an extremist group over an article or two he had published. I'm betting that Mike wishes he'd played his cards a little closer to his vest, as it would save him some headache later on.

About the best example I can cite for retaining an anonymous identity is Kim du Toit. Kim wrote and published articles that raised the bar on outrageous opinions and at the same time red lined every single Moonbat's outrage-ometer who came within six feet of an Internet connection. As a result Mr. du Toit couldn't get a job anywhere in the country, in spite of being bright and very competent.

For my part, I've met a few of the users and found them to be reasonable, likeable individuals, and that includes the ones I disagree with. There are a few others I'd like to meet out of curiosity, but only a few. For the rest of the time I'm staying behind the screen.

As I said, if you want to put yourself right out there, fine. Don't waste time insisting I do the same, and don't come bellyaching to me when some fool whacks your balls and then whacks your dick down, or begins sending you increasingly irrational emails containing your home address and the formula for C4.

See?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

"Yes I do Mccaskey."

because you've used this site to promote your job and your employer for years. Period. Don't pretend to tell me any differently. Only a complete fool would divulge personal information on here under the pretense of lending 'credibility' to their opinions---unless they had a useful, highly-personal reason for doing so....in other words, a paycheck.

Hey dogboy, how would you know what is said on WSPD, you said you no longer listen to it?
Oh, that's right, I forgot about the lying thing.
Never mind.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

I always found it ironic that those who were the most adamantly against the anonymity of others on here were those who posted their own information willingly.

I am a strong advocate against posting your information online and I believe it to be irresponsible except in cases of public figures like Michael Miller, fred, Maggie Thurber.

I think we all remember the former channel 24 reporter who posted anonymously at TT about his own show. That I would say is the opposite of the normal person because in that case it speaks to dis-ingenuity and a lack of credibility.

MikeyA

@MikeyA... I agree to a point. I don't post my personal information, but I have identified myself. I did that so that people would understand that I am not afraid to stand up for what I say on air or here. It's easy to sit back and take potshots at people when they can't identify you, that's been proven a number of times on here and elsewhere. I was taught that if you believe in something you will stand up for it and be counted. The internest of course has given people a convenient excuse to spread info about people without regard to fallout on others. It happens, you consider the source and move on.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

No Fred you don't but you have posted others personal E-mail address here on SwampBubbles. Remember you post my personal E-mail address here on SB and I didn't complain to the administrator or have you deactivated!

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Still waiting to see your blockbuster proof that I asked for you to be deacitivated. I'm guessing we won't see it anytime soon since it's a lie. For someone who's willling to post so much info I'm suprised you are holding back on this damning evidence of someone stepping on your first amendment rights Paul. Put up or shut up I say.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

I gave you the time of your post that you complained to the administrator. Others have touched on the general content of your post. Nuff said!

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Hahahahahah classic retort from someone who has claimed to have proof but in fact is just lying.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Well, you wanted proof and you just got it. His account really was deactivated though - check this link if you like: Wolfman's Account on TT.

Whatever it was he did must have been a little extreme as JR has always been very lenient about behavior. Case in point, anyone remember good old LimeDrops?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Paul, he is asking for the content of his complaint, not the time of the post.

I know it's been a month or so since I accessed my TT account but from last I remember it was still a public forum meaning anyone could read a posting.

Now if was made in the forum you should go in and get the quote. If it was made in a private message you could request the content from JR. JR is a member here and you can use the contact users tool, his username SHOCKINGLY is JR.

Or you can create a new thread on here directed to JR and you can publicly debate it with him.

MikeyA

If you're going to make the "who deserves more" argument, let's expand it. Who deserves more, a doctor who might potentially save lives, or some athlete who can run fast, or jump high, or hit a ball?

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

Dale and his ilk totally miss the point of the matter, which is normal for such Communists, Socialists and Unionists, i.e. the enemies of the nation: You're paid what the market can bear. And Toledo and other such rusting-down municipalities and school districts are unable to keep paying professionals like teachers their $32K starting, $48K average, and $60K pre-retirement wages, plus gold-plated benefits, plus 25-yr-based pensions.

Hear me, Dale, and repeat: What. The. Market. Will. Bear.

Say that over and over until you stop being such a Communist, Socialist and Unionist. After all, the repetition is just exercise to get you used to what must happen anyway. Toledo is filling up relatively with welfare cases. That's not a tax base. Ohio is in the same pickle, and I hardly need to mention what's happening at the federal level. There's no more money. You can't keep insisting on getting paid like before. As the economy collapses, so must your compensation. The free ride is over. Time for your class to succumb to real economics, just like happened to the rest of us.

Your education is apparently lacking. BTW...which large nation in the world today has the fastest growing economy -- Communist China! Do I like this --NO!! Do I want this as a guide for America -- NO! But we can't hide from the fact that, right now, they're the envy of the world!

Americans find plenty of money for entertainment, even in struggling economic times. I say that it's a matter of priorities. The Roman Empire in it's last days had great entertainment, too.

If we want to invest in America's future, if we want that future to be secure, we must do a better job of attracting and keeping exemplary teachers EVERYWHERE, not just in Toledo. Otherwise, we'll go the way of the Roman Empire. And, as I recall. Communism wasn't even invented then.

No, my education is just fine. I was educated by the TPS back when it performed. Now it is a joke.

There's no point in talking about 'exemplary teachers' when your school system doesn't PERFORM.

The current system pays teachers who don't perform. In fact, your class of person insists those teachers aren't held responsible. That's a first-order calculation from today's situation: Toledo is stuffed full of terrible public schools, and yet each pay period, the teachers responsible for those results keep getting paid.

And that appalling system continues, because of Communists, Socialists and Unionists. DO try to read ALL the labels that I slap on you, Dale.

I want to see a comparison from when you were educated in TPS to those in the suburban schools. Bet the suburban scores were higher than those in TPS! Older people almost always think that they were better and their times were tougher than for younger people. Since you don't understand Communism, your TPS teachers did not do a very good job of educating you back in the Stone Age. Funny! I went through TPS in the 1950s and 1960s. That's a long time ago, and I know what Communism is! And, for the record, I HATE COMMUNISM!!

I told my students every year that the attitude they take walking into the school and into the classroom, meant more than the school or classroom into which they walked! One of my former students completed her education at Scott High School in this century and went on to get her degree from the Ohio State University on a full ride scholarship! She named me as the teacher who inspired her the most to achieve excellence.

Overall, the teachers in TPS are as good or better than any in the area or in urban districts in this nation. The Toledo Plan, Intern-Intervention Programs, hold teachers to the highest standards in the nation. And it is union sponsored and was union initiated. Dal Lawrence couldn't stand having his students being taught by incompetent teachers. As TFT President, he saw too many incompetent teachers stay in the classroom because of favoritism or because TPS administrators did not follow proper due process procedures. Educators from around the nation and around the world have come to Toledo to study the program. The Toledo Plan has won national awards! It has been adopted throughout the State of California, and in places as diverse as Australia, South Africa, and Monterrey, Mexico.

I know that the things I write here go against everything you have learned as common knowledge, but the Toledo Federation of Teachers is one of the world's most innovative, progressive unions. And TFT does participate in firing incompetent teachers both new and experienced teachers.

"Overall, the teachers in TPS are as good or better than any in the area or in urban districts in this nation."

That's kind of like being the smartest kid with Down's Syndrome or Winner of the World's Biggest Small Penis.

"And it is union sponsored and was union initiated." So then you KNOW it's good. LOL

"It has been adopted throughout the State of California, and in places as diverse as Australia, South Africa, and Monterrey, Mexico." And each of those school systems never had problems again. (snicker)

"Toledo Federation of Teachers is one of the world's most innovative, progressive unions." Well you got one thing right. They ARE one of the most... progressive.

"And TFT does participate in firing incompetent teachers both new and experienced teachers." They fired all the teachers? Man when did I miss that?

MikeyA

So, according to Mikey, there are no good teachers anywhere. Now, I get it!!

In Toledo. No. The school system is failing. The mindset you have has permeated the system and real changes that could save the students have been prevented from happening.

The programs you mentioned have done nothing to aid the dumbing down of Toledo students. Every ten years they're getting dumber and dumber. And you are proud of it.

MikeyA

Here are two comparisons that you can look at: Simulated Grade Scale for LEA and Simulated Grade Scale for Schools.

Basically it states that things could be better at TPS. A lot better.

The problem is that one thing the school board, the school administrators and the school teachers can all agree on is that the Toledo public school system is drastically underfunded, and more money is needed. A lot more.

But, see, the school system is failing. It's been failing for a long time and the school board, the administrators and the teachers either can not or will not fix it. But they need more money.

In the past when more money arrived the money kind of vanished and the school system continued to fail. I'm thinking the future isn't going to be much different.

Given that the school system has little to no control over the parents, what would it take to fix the system? By his own admission, dalepertcheck has considerable experience here, so I'll appeal to him first. What would it take?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Throughout my 35 years of teaching, I was contacted very few times by social workers who had the family of one of my students as clients. Why are so many social workers in offices far removed from their client base? One advantage of the move to K-8 buildings, is that social workers could come to one of those school buildings and service 2, 3, or more children from the same family, They may be able to have a parent meet them at that neighborhood school as well. Nutritionists could work with adults in the family to do a better job of budgeting their food money and making more healthy choices for their children.

There have been programs in many school districts to bring in doctors and/or physicians' assistants, nurses and/or nurse practitioners, dentists, and other health care professionals to the schools to screen students and help them right at school.

Cost. There should be little or no additional cost to taxpayers, because we'd be using community resources which already exist and reallocating these existing resources to bring them into the schools.

To close the achievement gap between rich and poor in our society, we must close the school preparedness gap! If children are healthy and well-fed, if children have regular bedtimes and are well rested, children have the greatest chance to achieve to the limits of their ability!

We are currently wasting too many of our human resources. Improvements for our poorest children do not only benefit them and their families, all of society benefits. If we could raise the graduation rate by 10 per cent, and reduce the prison incarceration rate by 10 per cent, society would save billions of dollars per year, and more of our precious human resources would be used to benefit all of us. As I've pointed out before, one of the top pediatric neurosurgeons in the world got his basic education in the Detroit Public Schools and his mother was illiterate! There are more Ben Carson-types in urban schools throughout this nation. Doesn't it make good sense to better nurture them?

Interesting. Doctor's, nurses, nutritionists, and social workers = good grades. I don't know about that but I know it equals cash lots and lots of beautiful cash.

MikeyA

I was referring to people who work for social service agencies already. Doctors and nurses who work for social service agencies are among the lowest paid in their respective professions.

Doctors are paid well in our society, overall. I guess that you haven't been looking at the salaries for nurses lately, or nutritionists, or social workers. They do require a lot of education, but the remuneration is not great.

Do you resent everybody else's salary in the whole world?

"Do you resent everybody else's salary in the whole world?" No I resent waste of taxpayer money. Nothing you suggested will equal good grades.

MikeyA

Good to get you worked up into a lather, Dale. It just makes my task easier.

And in case you were wondering what my task is, it's to cut off you parasites from the municipal tit. I don't care what some politician promised you; you were paid too much, and we can't afford to keep paying your retirement packages. I don't care what some contract said, since contracts written in bad faith aren't valid, nor can contracts be enforced upon the bankrupt (i.e. we taxpayers).

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, let's dance:

"And, for the record, I HATE COMMUNISM!!"

No you don't, or at least, not really. You love the socialist/communist/unionist system that gets you a fat paycheck for really no effort on your part. Insert that Upton Sinclair quote here.

"Overall, the teachers in TPS are as good or better than any in the area or in urban districts in this nation."

Their students can't read, write or perform arithmetic. That's an absolute failure. The metric is the students, Dale. The students are the 'work product'. You measure value from that, not from a collection of your union buddies who have created what's essentially a communist hive inside Toledo.

"And TFT does participate in firing incompetent teachers both new and experienced teachers."

And still their students can't read, write or perform arithmetic. So the system picks on the new teachers while keeping the old guard in their large pay, huge benefits, and simply obscene retirements. The students are the metric. There is no other rational way to measure performance.

You are so far off! How profoundly sad! My recent experiences in the hospital have brought me into contact with former students who are health care professionals. I am so proud of them! I never stated that we shouldn't or couldn't do a better job of educating students. Your comments create much more heat than light!

BTW...I looked it up...in most of the Right-to-Work states the graduation rate is lower than it is in Ohio. Many of them outlaw public employee unions. Unions are not the problem.

You have no idea what Communism is. You really shouldn't use a term with which you have no working knowledge. You should love Communism. It's full of clear delineations of what can or cannot be done and self-righteous declarations of what is clearly right and wrong. Fits you to a tee!

You have no idea what Communism is.

You're wrong; he does. GZ's grasp of communism and other forms of government is very likely superior to yours. For one thing he hasn't spent the past 35 years playing to a captive audience.

I asked you to propose a solution to the troubled TPS system and all you could provide was a tap dance coupled with a denial. I'm not surprised.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

You'd discredit them anyway. My original degree is in Poiltical Science with an Economics minor. I have spent my entire adult life involved in politics, even running political campaigns. I worked in the retail business for 15 years before I started teaching. I have a varied background.

During my 35 years teaching in TPS, I could have been fired with the support of the TFT if I were screwing up. I personally know experienced teachers who were either fired or forced out of TPS. The union protected me from being fired because I spoke out against management, or powerful organizations in our community, like The Blade. (I once received a call from Merrill Grant's office when he was Superintendent after I had less than flattering things to say about him in a Blade letter-to-the-editor.) Unions should only ensure due process rights. The TFT does not protect incompetence!

The saddest thing is that you and others ascribe such crass motivations to those who enter the teaching profession. Most of the teachers I've known, both before and after I started teaching, love children. They often speak about their students as if they are their own children. When they read the baseless, crass, cruel reasons why people like you think they teach; when they read people like you stating how terrible they do their jobs; they can't comprehend from where all of the bitterness emulates! Most (I never said all) work so hard and care so much, and all you do is rip them to shreds. Shame on you!

If unions were the primary problem ruining our nation, our private sector should be booming now, since private sector union membership has dropped dramatically from about 30% in the 1950s to about 6% now. And, as I've pointed out elsewhere, of the states with a lower unemployment rate than Ohio, 12 are Right-to-Work states and 14 are non-Right-to-Work states. Weaker unions do not mean a better overall economy! As a matter of fact, I could make an excellent argument that the absence of unions would almost totally eliminate the middle class in America.

Byrnedale Junior High Salaries (names redacted by me) Salary followed by days worked for 2010. Before anyone gets bent out of shape, these are the top 5.

$85,408.00-222
$76,479.00-212
$70,353.00-190
$69,833.00-190
$69,773.00-190
The school year is 182 days long. Even giving them credit for an extra 4 hours per night as someone has suggested that means 1,820 hours worked. Summers off.
Since the original post concerned me. My work year is 240 days long if I take all 4 weeks of vacation. Arriving for work at 4:30a and leaving at 11 gives me a 61/2 hr day plus the 2-3 hours of prep each night for a total of 8 12-9 1/2 hour day. I did not include any meetings I attend as prep, nor any teacher in service days or snow days for teachers. The yearly pension estimate is $56k+ for this teacher by the way.
What does all this prove? Nothing. Except that my private employer has decided that I am worth what they pay me, and that TPS pays some of it's teachers this much.
The original question is a stupid one based on one man's jealously and bias over what another man has. It's like comparing apples to oranges becasue there are more differences than similarities in the comparisons the biggest being PRIVATE and PUBLIC sector jobs.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

First of all, I have no problem with the salary you make. I believe it takes a special skill to do what you do effectively. I disagree with the fact that you bash others who also work hard, and you seem to resent the salaries they make because they're in the public sector. As far as I'm concerned, work is work. Credentials are credentials.

As is so often the case, the top salaries you list are not on the TPS-TFT negotiated salary schedule. That is because the people who receive these salaries must have addtional supplemental jobs for which they must work innmuerable hours in addition to their teaching jobs. I once estimated the pay per hour for two of our coaches. Just practice and game times alone made it less than $1.00 per hour. This did not include prep time! Some of the other salaries listed may include extra duties and extra hours of work as well. About a year ago, The Blade listed the highest paid TPS employees and included their one-time-only, accumulated sick leave over a 30 or more year period the year they retired, as if the employees regularly made that much per year!

The Blade's public employee salary database doesn't have any of the salaries you listed for 2010.

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

Even if teacher salaries are public record, I doubt 'days worked' is included in that record. See Fredo, you just toss this crapola on the wall to see if it'll stick without any context, where you get your information, whatever.

Fredo, I'd pay cash money to see you survive one year at any TPS school or any classroom enviornment that deals with severely handicapped/special needs children in ANY school district. Might build you some character and as a bonus you'd get a life-lesson on who really earns their paycheck.

Exactly where and how would you have obtained information that include 'days worked'---which I assume basically means sick time taken---for certain Byrndale teachers? Is that public record somewhere? Post a link...

www.buckeyeinstitute.org

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

The question shouldn't be " Who should be paid more teachers, firemen, police, or a high school educated talk show host?", it really should be "who decides who should be paid more". Because as much as he'd like to, Paul can't decide how much I get paid.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16584 I'm sure someone will complain about the source being right wing, Koch backed, but that can't change the facts.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

In a free market, workers are paid what they are worth to the employers. As Fred has said, a private company has the right to pay each employee what it deems the value of each job to be. Collective bargaining can hurt those who could have received higher pay for better work, and can reward those who do less work with more pay.
As for the posting of Fred's personal information, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the source, Lucas County. Does the county have the right to post these documents online? Some counties, municipalities, etc. do not. Why does Lucas County? You can find Wolfman's legal issues there as well. ( I will not post a link. Search for yourself.) But in Ottawa County, you'd have to pay to get Wolfman's records. Which is fair? Seems like Lucas County could use the money -- there's an idea!

In a free market, workers are paid what they are worth to the employers. As Fred has said, a private company has the right to pay each employee what it deems the value of each job to be. Collective bargaining can hurt those who could have received higher pay for better work, and can reward those who do less work with more pay.
As for the posting of Fred's personal information, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the source, Lucas County. Does the county have the right to post these documents online? Some counties, municipalities, etc. do not. Why does Lucas County? You can find Wolfman's legal issues there as well. ( I will not post a link. Search for yourself.) But in Ottawa County, you'd have to pay to get Wolfman's records. Which is fair? Seems like Lucas County could use the money -- there's an idea!

"Does the county have the right to post these documents online? Some counties, municipalities, etc. do not. Why does Lucas County?" I believe all in Ohio are required to due to the Ohio's sunshine laws. I could be wrong on that as I've never really looked into them.

"You can find Wolfman's legal issues there as well. ( I will not post a link. Search for yourself.) " Exactly the point I've made. Just because it's public information doesn't mean it needs to be made public by someone here.

Plus if fred posted anonymously and he were outed later many in here would take issue with it.

MikeyA

The problem with your citing an article like this, is that many readers infer that the same is true for TPS. It's similar to your citing the highest five paid teachers at Byrnedale and implying their pay is their teaching salary only, when the salary schedule doesn't even go high enough to pay the top two salaries! They, obviously, work other supplemental jobs and long additional hours to earn the extra pay.

The only thing I can state is that TPS pays less than any medium-sized or larger school district in Michigan. The fringes in the article are mostly out of reach for TPS teachers. And if I were still teaching in TPS this year, my first year of retirement, my take-home pay would be less this school year than it was a decade ago.

I want the 'best and brightest', most-awarded, highly-lauded teachers currently working in Ottawa Hills, Perrysburg, Sylvania, private schools, wherever....and place them in TPS for one full school year. And I want to see just how high those test scores and graduation rates climb from those TPS kids under the guidance and mentoring of the very best educators this area has to offer, the ones willing to go that 'extra mile' to reach into the hearts and souls of those young people, to mold them and excite them and motivate them to learn and expand their minds in a never-ending quest for knowledge . Yes, I think that would be something worth observing, indeed.

The question: Who should be paid more teachers, firemen, police, or a high school educated talk show host?
Thank you!

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

I really don't care what Fred makes, other than casual curiosity, if even that. I draw no importance or relevance to comparing what he makes compared to teachers, firemen and the like. Fred's employer must be happy with his performance and compensates him accordingly. If the employer were unhappy with his performance, the compensation would go in a different direction, if he were to be employed there at all.

If i'm caught in a burning building, no, i don't want Fred breaking down walls and doors trying to get me to safety; I want a highly-skilled, veteran, well-trained fireman, and yes, I want him paid well...he/she did his job well.

If I'm in the class room, trying to absorb and comprehend the meanings of Greek classics, no, I do not wish to see Fred standing at the lecturn pretending he knows or cares what he's doing...I want an intelligent, energetic teacher who makes the study of those works exciting and thought-provoking so that I might care to learn more about them, even after the course has concluded. And I want that teacher well compensated...he/she did their job well.

If I'm driving around town some mid-morning and I for whatever reason (can't be a good one) turn the car-radio dial to WSPD, and I hear the dulcet tones of Fredo taking another cheap, unsubstantiated, below-the-belt shot at the President, or unions, or in-the-grave Ted Kennedy, or esteemed congresswoman Kaptur, and my knuckles turn white gripping the steering wheel and my face turns the color of a ripe turnip as I feel the effects of a stroke rapidly approaching, my only conclusion is Fred has angered another progressive liberal with his typical flotsam and jetsam....and that he has done his job well and thus should be justly compensated for doing so.

This is the crux of the problem. Workers with a higher education that are daily, mind you, called slugs and thugs as if his high school education entitles him to judge others. He has no idea or cares less for others...only cares about the ratings. This formula of hate propaganda is tearing apart the social fabric of this country. I see where radio sponsors are abandoning any programing with divisive speech.

Talk Radio Losing Advertisers In Wake Of Limbaugh Scandal
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/10/talk-radio-losing-advertisers_n...

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

and I don't believe it's pertinent.

There are untold amount of success stories out there dealing with people who never even finished high school, let alone stopped at high school. People can 'educate' themselves plenty in adulthood, after the official 'schooling 'has concluded, whether at high school, college, advanced-degree level, whatever.

Haven't listened to Fred in probably four years, maybe longer. Does he still read aloud stories in The Blade to drum up listener calls? You see, his high school education has served him just fine. He has the basic reading-skill levels required to do his job well and his happy employer compensates accordingly.

Fred said: """"""Just as any poster on here has the right to contact an administrator when their family is personally brought into the mix, that's what I did. Now you may not understand this next part....I am a public figure, my wife is not. If Paul wants to tell people how much I make to make some pont more power to him, my wife however has never posted and is not a public figure.""""""""

Crybaby Fred: you had no problem putting information concerning one of my children on SB on more than one occasion. You didn't see me running and crying to Chris.......

Suck it up!

Twywlaie, your kid posts here on his own, that's the difference. And I don't think I've ever seen you run anywhere.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

But you let everybody know that this was my son. And every chance you get when he does post you call it to the attention of whoever reads these posts that he is my son.

Suck it up, Fred! Stop being a crybaby!

What perverted joy does it give you to distort my name, just asking? Seems a little childish.

If your son wants anonymity all he has to do is close his account, create a new username, not reveal his identity.

In fact it doesn't take fred to point out that he is your son for us to know. His username has his last name in it.

So face reality. Fred has not "outed" your son.

MikeyA

It's not perverted. Perverted is a school system promising to raise the bar but leaving the inner city kids behind.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

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