Fred wspd say's he has no problem with Chinese invesments in Toledo, do you????

I have a few, how about I don't want to eat with chop sticks, have one child, speak Chinese, or be thrown in jail for speaking my mind, although we are on our way to doing just that, restriction of speech that is. Yes you can say this might be farfetched but allowing the Chinese to invest in Toledo is somewhat of an entitlement/bailout, I thought some of us were against entitlements and bailouts. Why can't we find our own money to invest, because we are broke? Why?, the people who depend on entitlements are broke as well. I don't agree with bailouts, but it sounds like it’s not ok to get bailed out by our own government, but its ok to get bailed out by the Chinese, my words not yours. Which is better, being owned by the government or the Chinese?
> Investments equals ownership.<

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I heard another way to bail ourselves out is being discussed, like the War Bond system used to help finance WW2. The problem I have with that is, our dismal situation is not a result of fighting a World War, against the likes of Hitler, Tojo or Mussolini. This is a result reckless, uncontrolled spending, and the loss of most of out manufacturing jobs. GM just announced a expenditure of 500+billion to build a plant in Mexico, e.g.. I have no problem buying bonds when the survival of our country is at stake. I WOULD have problems buying bonds to make sure ILLEGAL immigrants get to live the "life of Riley" while no effort is made to secure our borders, inmates who get free viagra and sex change operations, billions after billions given to countries that hate us, trillions spent to bail the presidents' buddies in Wall Street and Big Banking, out, and yada-yada-yada.

The Real Economic Lesson China Could Teach Us
by Robert Reich
Wednesday, January 19, 2011
Highlighting today’s summit between Chinese President Hu Jintao and President Obama is China’s agreement to buy $45 billion of American exports. The President says this will create more American jobs. That’s not exactly right. It will create more profits for American companies but relatively few new jobs.
http://robertreich.org/post/2830348699

Then we have this!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#41180616

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#40756281

The Fed Works... for Chinese Workers
Dylan Ratigan
Host, MSNBC's "The Dylan Ratigan Show"
Posted: January 20, 2011 03:24 PM

A recent article in the Wall Street Journal showed that most of the people who lost jobs in this most recent recession found new ones at lower pay. Over a third of these people had to take pay cuts of at least 20 percent. Pay cuts. We haven't experienced real, sustained pay cuts across a large swath of Americans since the 1930s.
But this isn't just a tragedy; it is in fact a conspiracy. The people in charge aren't just failing to prevent this from happening. They want it to happen. You see, pay cuts for workers mean that prices as a whole in the economy don't rise. There's less inflation, which means that banks and creditors make more money. (MORE)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/the-fed-works-for-chinese_b_...

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

xxxxxx

As a former auto worker, you know what will happen if a lot of US cars are part of this package, as well as I do. Overtime will be ratcheted up, and no new workers will be hired. And union bosses will get paid 12 hours pay, 7 days a week for the duration. It won't just the Big Three who cash in.

Let me see if I have this correct: We couldn't stop capitalist scum from packing up and leaving Toledo, but now we're intimating that we should stop them from returning because they're Chinese?

I don't know what the agenda of the poster "DONT TREAD ON ME" is, but he's clearly delusional. How will capitalist ownership in the area affect the larger law of the United States? If so, then you'd have to admit that capitalist ownership in the USA in general has led to changes in the law that were illegitimate. Right?

...into anything. I've detailed my thoughts about why we should go slowly and some points to consider on my blog:

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2011/01/dont-rush-to-accept-chinese...

There is a difference with Chinese companies in that most of them are owned/controlled by the Chinese government. We wouldn't be selling property to a company or an individual - but to a foreign nation (and a communistic one at that).

I believe that difference requires more consideration in how we decide to approach any offer they might make to buy land/buildings here.

Isn't this in the ball park of an entitlement/bailout. Chinese investing in Toledo.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

Conservative say nothing as we borrow a trillion dollars from the Chinese to invade Iraq. We still borrow money everyday from them to keep our 50,000 troops there. Conservatives say nothing as American companies dismantle our manufacturing base and move it to China taking American engineering knowhow and intellectual property with them.

Now the Chinese want to buy some land that conservative have been saying for years that the Toledo has no business owning and now they freak out? Where have you been the last twenty years?

...cannot mean me when you reference "conservative" as I have spoken out against borrowing and increasing the debt, as well as the spending and yearly deficits, for years - yes, even when a Republican was in the White House.

This is one of my pet peeves with liberals/progressives - a lack of consistency on positions.

My position on the debt, spending and borrowing doesn't change when the person in the White House does, though evidence shows that the positions of others (yes, even including some who call themselves conservative) do.

As for the city owning land for non-governmental functions (like the Docks, the Erie Street Market and the Marina District), I will agree that they should not be in such a business and I would definitely be in favor of them selling the property and putting the proceeds to capital improvements. But that doesn't mean we should automatically assume that any and every buyer is a good one and jump into a transaction.

If you read the post, SensorG, you'll note that I didn't say we shouldn't sell to the Chinese - just that we need to go slowly, thoroughly evaluating all the ramifications and possibilities, so we can make a good decision. And since liberals/progressives on Toledo city council are amenable to putting all kinds of conditions on other companies that want to do similar things in the city, putting conditions on this particular transaction is nothing new.

(As an aside, I did not criticize Pres. Obama when he asked for additional spending for Afghanistan and Iraq. I hope that he and his predecessors are/were making the right decisions based on the information they have (which we clearly don't) to protect our country, which is part of their Constitutional mandate. Did you?)

Bush gave a trillion dollar tax break while borrowing a trillion dollars from China for Iraq. The two pieces are directly tied. Republicans controlled all three branches for much of his Presidency. Republicans made no effort to curb spending or borrowing from the Chinese.

Did some conservatives pay lip service? Sure, but that’s all it was, there was no Fox News led Tea Party events. There was no call to have Republicans not raise the debt ceiling.

The Chinese have an excess of capital because Americans make no effort to stop buying Chinese goods and don’t hold companies the least bit responsible for where they manufacture. Now that they what to use the money that Americans have given them to buy property verses Treasuries, people are concerned?

The Japanese bought up everything back the 80’s. How did that work out for them?

What is your position on the city selling property to the Chinese government?

Rather than complain about what federal elected officials (of both parties) have done in terms of the debt, what do you think the City of Toledo should do if presented with an offer?

I say let them invest in the US. The reason the Chinese economy is doing so well is because of American companies investing there and Americans buying the good they produce. I say let them invest here too...

If people are so concerned about them investing here, then stop buy cheap crap at Wal-Mart so they don't have our money.

that American companies have to comply with when they 'invest' in China be applied to Chinese firms when they 'invest' here?

Does the fact that many Chinese firms are owned/controlled by the communist government make a difference to you in your position?

Do you believe foreign governments should be able to own land in the U.S. (outside the need for their embassies)?

Do you think the city of Toledo should consider such things before agreeing to any sale?

During the reign of terror of George Bush we lost 40,000 factories, we had an S&P 500 that lost value over his two terms. We saw average wages drop. The Bush tax cuts created no new jobs. We saw a greater transfer of wealth to the top 5% without any benefit for main street. Now the Chinese want to invest in retail that traditionally creates low paid service jobs. We need high pay jobs to support our government, our schools. Low wage jobs will only create more demand for social services.

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

How many of those 40,000 factories were GM factories that went to Mexico. Buy American?

MikeyA

What in the FUCK are you talking about?

Obamao LOVES china....commies run in packs...

If you are so bent about communists....how about getting them out of the democrat party FIRST.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Z-G, rats also run in packs.

Gspot is simply full of shit....

Conservatives like me have been pointing this stuff out for YEARS while libtards and rino's continue to suck up to china...

"I welcome china's rise to power" Obama.

Fuck china......we should nuke them while we still have the chance.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Remember how upset everyone got when the Japanese bought Rockefeller Center? Nobody seemed to realize they couldn't un-bolt it and ship it to Tokyo. They ended up reselling it at a loss as I recall. Why not sell everything the Chinese are willing to buy? Their economy will tank at some point, as every other economy in history has. Then we cash in. Every single asset I have is for sale, to the Chinese, if they meet my price. And with regard to China holding a trillion in US debt, they won't collect a DIME on it.

As far as Toledo is concerned, sell the Government Center first.
Remember the saying: "Japan, the best friend Reagan has", well, the Japanese economy has stalled, for at least the last ten years. They once were touted as "brilliant financial masterminds", just like the Chinese are, now. I hope Toledo lets them invest in everything they're willing to. The High Level Bridge, the convention center, portside should bring in many millions, and all we have to do if they want their money back, is say "sorry, we filed bankruptcy".

Amen G-man. You speak the gospel.

MikeyA

If China calls in their debt its over for the U.S. They can collect that way. In the mean time they dictate to us every aspect of the economy that serves their purpose.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

Wow...that was a good discussion until Mr. Z dropped the F-bomb and proposed terminating the Chinese with the A-bomb.

yeah yeah...sure sure.....like they dont have nukes pointed right at your head dumbass...

We've been in two shooting wars with china and it's proxies ....and we will be in another....

You go right ahead and trust the Communists....I will trust them to do what communists always do...murder, oppress, and lie while they are doing it.

And I will trust libtards to do what they always do......defend fellow travelers...

Fuck China.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Concerning his statement> that he has no problem with Chinese invesments in Toledo, can you share your views on this. Where's the appropriation of tax dollars. Also can you explain to me how this is not in the realm of a bailout/entitlement?

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

At one time, people used to bitch about Elisabeth II and the Royal Family buying up lots of acreage in the US, big deal IMO. After Japan and before China-everyone was mad as hell about Petro-Dollars cornering the market. If it hadn't already been sold, the Brooklyn Bridge could be offered to China at a real good price, too.

Do you make a distinction between a person purchasing land and a government?

I realize that the English royal family is the symbolic head of the UK, but the country is run by parliament. The same for Japan - the government doesn't run the companies.

In China, however, the companies are owned, run and controlled by the Chinese government - they are, virtually, the same thing.

To me, that is a difference to be considered. If the Chinese President wanted to purchase a home here, I'd have no objection. But I am concerned when a foreign government wants to purchase land - especially land held by the public entity.

Do other governments own land in the U.S. that is not for an embassy or some similar function? Are these properties that the Chinese are interested in available for anyone to purchase? Have they been advertised for sale and/or promoted as land available?

I guess I just have more questions than answers...

If we want to sell goods in Chicomville, we have to build factories there. They don''t have to build factories here. Under this set up, American workers wish they at least had a Chinamans' chance of competing.

C'mon now, what is the actual difference if the Chicom government, QE2, The Saudis, The Donald, government controlled Japanese big business, Warren Buffet or Jimmy Buffet bought a lot of businesses and/or real estate including the High Level Bridge? Let the above even form a consortium to buy stuff in Toledo. This will generate what politicians love more than life itself-tax dollars to spread around for their re-elections. We'll get the money, and when the Chinese have their own recession, we'll still have our property. I see it as a win-win. I'm sorry, the British Royal Family made considerable purchases more so during the time of Victoria, onward. The point I'm trying to make is, I've seen this happen twice so far. The Country still belongs to us. Governments are made up of people. Like people, when they become cash soaked, they go out and spend-spend-spend. How many folks here bought a lot of real estate, because it was 100% safe, and subsequently lost their asses? How did "God's not making any more" work out for them?

I wouldn't worry about Chinese people moving to Toledo, taking jobs, etc., after taking one look at the school system. I don't think they would be impressed with Downtowns' homeless shelters, soup kitchens or mini-farms/scarecrows either. Take their money now-once they find out Toledo doesn't need their help with a March to Socialism, they might spend the money elsewhere. All we have to do, is enjoy the ride, and watch to see when Jim Rogers moves back from Singapore.

Here's one example.

Oct. 31, 1989, Japan bought 51% of Rockefeller Center for 846 million.

Sept.12, 1995, Japan announced they would "walk away" from their 51% holding, allowing it to revert to a trust held by, among others, the Rockefeller heirs.

This is a result of "savvy business"? Yes, but on the part of the Rockefeller group.

...the country, that bought Rockefeller Center. It was Mitsubishi Estate Company. And unlike Chinese companies, Japanese companies are not owned by the Japanese government. This is a key distinction.

Why I have no problem with China buying land. I have yet to see anything that would imply they would try to make us eat chop sticks, have one child, or speak chinese. Additionally I don't see them doing it as a propaganda tool either (unlike the WTC mosque). If China wanted to do that they could have done it already with the debt they own.

I support this for the same reason I support free trade. Security. Companies that do business together and have the same business goals do more than companies that directly compete against each other. China suddenly recalling all the debt would destabilize the US economy and China would ultimately lose money. However buying US debt (traditionally stable) could help diminish the affects of a Chinese recession.

A Chinese recession is coming. It will come hard for several reasons. 1) most of the country is poor. The slightest slip in GDP could destabilize the whole economy 2) their growth rate is unsustainable long term. 3) India. India's growth rate competes with China and they're in close proximity to each other. Also India has closer ties to Western gov'ts. 4) Population. Chinese families are limited to 1 child. Chinese culture puts a heavy emphasis on male children. China has the highest levels in the world of female infanticide. The population makeup will destabilize as it pushes over 55-45 male/female ratios causing more internal destabilization.

MikeyA

I'm struggling to understand why anyone cares about how Chinese investments are sourced. We're actually acting all concerned about "government ownership" of corporations, when our own government is pouring well-documented trillions all over private businesses in these United States? We go to the polls, and 95% of us pull the levers for Republicans and Democrats who enact these domestic buyouts and rescues and bailouts and subsidies, and then we get on forums like these and dare to act all concerned that China does the same thing openly?

We need to stop the hypocrisy. We need to stop the rising, stealth Fascism (merging of corporations and government) in these United States, first, before daring to criticize other nations who do it openly. The moral basis to criticize foreign practices must be built here first, before we can apply it.

...I oppose the subsidies, special tax breaks, bailouts, etc... of U.S. companies as well.

I seem to remember Mitsubishi, controlled by Japan, also brought us the "Zero", in 1941. So, them taking huge losses in 1995, actually makes me happy. Japanese government and business are joined at the hip. Maybe we can talk the Chicoms into investing in a few rare coins while they're here? That's a better sucker bet than real estate.

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