If you've already bookmarked Ticketmaster's Web site in anticipation of all the fantastic entertainment acts that will be streaming into Downtown Toledo to perform at the new arena, I have an unwelcome prediction for you. In the summer of 2010, when Toledo's arena is open for business and still shining new, you will still need to gas up the car and drive to Cleveland's Blossom Music Center or Detroit's DTE Energy Music Theater to see anything but the same old "B-list" acts our town always seems to attract. The good news is that Eddie Money, bless his rock and roll soul, won't have to play on an uncovered stage at Promenade Park anymore.
Arena may not draw big names
...especially when looking at the revenue estimates from the studies done to support the financial plan for the arena.
I would love to have a new arena, but articles like these that point out some of the realities about the ability to fill the space with money-producing functions continue to validate my concerns about the financing plan and how the arena - now up to $105 million per the most recent Blade articles - will be paid for.
I had serious doubts about their ability to actually obtain all of the targeted funds for the $82 million estimated cost ... and no one's yet said where the extra $23 million will come from.
Am I the only one who's afraid the answer will be an increase in taxes, despite all the promises otherwise?
Some bands prefer to play a smaller venue. Look at the acts the Zoo has been able to attract the past few years...Santana, Steely Dan, Paul Simon, Moody Blues, Stevie Ray (before he died) and Brian Setzer with the Stray Cats to name a few.
Sure the new arena may not host the Stones, or a Led Zepplin revival but I think the new arena will be able to attract high quality acts in a theater which leaves out alot of the bustle/hustle nightmares of playing larger venues. Some acts prefer the more personal feel of smaller audiences.
Besides...."It's not as scarey as Detroit"
or... No Shit? When you build a 10,000 person facility you know some acts will naturally not be a good fit.
But the possibilities increase that you can book more "b" acts, and big name acts that prefer smaller venues.
It should also serve as a catalyst for retail or entertainment downtown. There are already some buildings down there working on helping downtown improve.
It could also attract larger conventions if it works in partnership with the Seagate center. Giving convention planners two suitable venues that can house people for different activities. This option will obviously take some leadership and collaboration.
I just love the skepticism and feelings of "oh how will this work", keep thinking like this and we all just sit around and complain and nothing will change.
I wonder if they will bring back the international festival? Now that was a good time!
The article does make some good points but I don't think it fully passes the smell test.
We've had a number of large acts who have wanted to come to Toledo in the past. In fact I remember Garth Brooks was scheduled to play the Glass Bowl in the late 90's during the height of his popularity. That show was canceled because it was ultimately too small for a one night performance.
There are many large acts who will play smaller venues because ticket prices are higher and more in demand. Also they feel it's a much more enjoyable experience because there is more focus on the sound. Even in the larger cities the smaller venues have not kept big name acts from playing them. The only change is higher ticket price.
That being said while the new arena is only 10,000 seats it would actually fill up to 12-13K when seats are added to the floor. This puts it at a larger capacity than Savage Hall, Valentine, and Masonic Temple. I was only in fear of building the area when it looked as if it would hold the same as Savage Hall. Then you'd have two venues competing for the exact same acts.
Also the notion that bands could sell out both Detroit and Cleveland is sketchy. About 5 years ago KISS sold out the Palace. However they had to cancel their show at Savage Hall because the tickets didn't sell.
MikeyA
I've never really bought into that "big name acts wont play here becasue there is no venue big enough". (at least in the summer). I remember going to Toledo Speedway to see guns and roses w/skid rowe. I also remember going to Milan dragway to see Lalapalooza. I think its more that there isn't as many fans in this area to justify coming here. (maybe?)
My high school gymnasium held a legitimate 6000 people..........
The money issue is a bit fuzzy...like the hangover we'll have from year to year w/ tax burdens. I am hopeful that the Arena will be productive, at least break even. But do we really need another example of something that never makes a dime?
All the people I know who have had big entertainment ideas in Toledo are either broke or live somewhere else far, far away.
"All the people I know who have had big entertainment ideas in Toledo are either broke or live somewhere else far, far away."
Maggie (et al), I do not know the current estimates or the revenue bond argument, I know you have a lot of information on this as it was a County Commissioners plan (albeit not yours) for some time. To be honest your skepticism is merely that, in my opinion skepticism.
The question was raised about big name acts, and I responded with what was possible, not solid facts and figures. Raising taxes will never be an option if people work together to make an attractive Arena District. With the complements of the other buildings downtown, 5/3rd, hotels, restaurants, the arena can be a draw for our region. It will take coorperation, leadership, and entrpreneurship to make it work.
You can be skeptical of the funding, and sit around and question whether we will ever be able to pay the bills, I am going to sit around and wait for them to engage the citizens to see what type of events people want to attend.
The city will continue to sell off bits and pieces until the arean is the only left standing, well that and the Erie Street Market.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
...for the construction and the generous estimates for the net profit in revenue to pay for the revenue bonds they plan to issue to help cover the cost of construction.
I'm not skeptical about the concerts/acts/shows that may choose to come here.
And you know what? I'd rather make sure those financials represent good, accurate and realistic numbers before we reach the 'point of no return' and then have no choice but to increase taxes to pay for the thing.
Tell me, jdmsbyrd, do you really think that people from Oregon are going to spend twice as much at events as Toledoans will? What about people from Sylvania, Whitehouse or Bowling Green? That's what the revenue estimates are based upon - people from outside the Toledo city limits (yes, I double checked this just to make sure they really meant Toledo city limits) spending almost twice as much at events. That's just not realistic - so how do we plan appropriately for what kind of an arena we can truly afford when we've got estimates like this being used as the basis for revenue bonds to fund construction?
If you fail to address the financial challenges now - you'll end up facing them later, after it's too late to make adjustments.
...that this is correct:
That being said while the new arena is only 10,000 seats it would actually fill up to 12-13K when seats are added to the floor.
My recollection is that it's 8,500 seats expandable to 10,000 with seats on the floor. The issue was striking a balance between enough seats for concerts while maintaining an 'intimate' atmosphere for the hockey games. Average attendance for ECHL teams would look empty in a 10,000-fixed seat arena was the explanation.
We all know where that extra $23M will come from: the taxpayers of Lucas County.
Carty's budget proposal shows exactly what they intend to do, which we here have predicted will happen many times. When squeezed by their own spend-spend-spend policies, they will increase all manner of fees, which are "soft taxes". Certain regions in the US have tried to continue their spending binge by increasing speeding tickets to almost $1000. Imagine THAT for Toledo. We still have a ways to go, fee wise. Toledo's average dipshit voter will have to suffer greatly before he will change his ways and start voting Republican (who are the only ones willing to preach fiscal conservatism).
You forgot to add "tens of millions in tax money". I suspect your omission is more relevant to the Arena that those other items. I suspect your issue with "skepticism" is more an issue with TRUTH.
Remember, NO ONE stopped a private developer from coming in, paying for site land (note: there's PLENTY of it in East Toledo), and then building an Arena. In true Toledo Communist style, the politicians and the more depraved citizens opted for a Socialistic solution. Which nation do we live in, again? Oh, yeah, I remember now: Little Albania. We're a tiny Second World nation in the middle of the USA.
No wonder people are fleeing. Those who move to Perrysburg are laughing up their sleeves, since they're in Wood County and can't even be affected by Unigov (which will be one of the next major steps towards Toledo Communism).
The word "we" needs to be detached from "Arena". It's not MY arena. If I have to move away from Toledo to prove that, I'll do it. You lose about 1000 people like me every year. Your stupid city has fallen to the level of 1950s population. Are you going to wait until it falls into the 1800s before you WAKE UP?
...jdmsbyrd - wouldn't you like know if there are funding gaps and how they're going to fill them? Wouldn't you rather focus on how to make up any funding gaps before you start to wonder about what types of events people want to attend? (ok - that was two)
My column in next week's Free Press will discuss this issue...but I think we're all putting the cart before the horse, 'engaging citizens' about types of events before telling them the potential cost. Imho, the cost of said events is ALWAYS a factor when making such decisions.
btw - a healthy dose of skepticism about the funding can't hurt, especially if it results in a better fiscal plan for those events you want...
and someone needs to turn off the bold command on their post...jdmsbyrd?
Especially here. I understand that the county is undertaking the project and not a private investor, and I am beginning to understand the impact if the project is not successful, but I believe it is an option that can be used as a revenue generator if done correctly.
GZ--"You lose about 1000 people like me every year. Your stupid city has fallen to the level of 1950s population." --you are so bitter half of the time, spewing venom about socialism and the god awful unigov, but you offer no solutions, ever, ever. Its always rants about how Toledo is this horrible socialist next-coming.
People leave Toledo because there are no jobs, half of the reason there are no jobs is because the tit of the auto industry was swiped from the industrial landscape of the area. Some in here want private investment dollars to come in, but where are they? Where are these people with ideas and goals that want to start up shop? They are not here, and the ones who are already hate T-Town and set up shop in the burbs. Given that, it is up to people in the city to help turn Toledo around. If you would rather be skeptical and act as if the sky is falling everyday because no one is listening to your ideas that is fine, just not the way I do things.
Maggie--"Wouldn't you rather focus on how to make up any funding gaps before you start to wonder about what types of events people want to attend?" I will have to read more about the gaps, as I already admit, not super clear of these issues. If they are construction gap concerns then yes I would want them remedied. If they are "profit gaps" or questions on long term sustainability, then I would saw the engagement/ event discussion is quite appropriate.
I am looking forward to Maggie's article Maggie and I am sorry if I bolded the whole message, still trying to get this site's tags down.
I don't believe that the arena is as doomed for failure as some on here think it is. I personally believe that the conventions we'll gain in the added space alone will contribute more to it's success than a hockey team, football team, or concert combined.
And I think that is where they get the figures for the people "outside the city limits of Toledo" come from. I would further expand it to "outside the county" myself because I think it will host many national and state conventions that currently it loses to other larger cities (who also have higher fees for parking, food, entertainment and other unseen costs).
However that being said I do share Maggie's concerns on funding. I think in the rush to get one built the commisioners did move very very quickly on the project without fully looking at the impact of taxes and fees. I think there could have been more and better ways to diminish traditional public funding for it.
And Maggie, I don't recall it being 8,500 except for the possibility of arena football and hockey. If I remember correctly it was over 10K for concerts and conventions. I'll have to look it up but the only reason I supported it was because it's capacity was different than that of Savage Hall, which holds 8-9K. If they're building it at the same size as Savage then the commissioners shot a hole through their foot because when given the choice between using a downtown arena or one on campus then the campus will almost always win out because of the things I mentioned before parking, food, unseen costs, etc.
MikeyA
...number I saw was 8500 fixed seats expandable to around 10,000 +/- for concerts - it's in the original proposal from Gateway which was still available on the county website under old 'news' items.
And the figures for the spending from outside the city of Toledo were specifically for the hockey/sports/events at the new arena. Nothing in terms of the additional convention capacity was included in the Gateway study. And since this was directly related to the new arena activities, you can see why I think it's unrealistic to expect people from the suburbs to spend nearly twice as much just because they're from outside the city limits. And that 'spending' was used to calculate net profit revenues that could support payment of construction bonds.
I don't disagree that more conventions and larger ones that might be possible with this extra space would bring in more spending. But remember that the convention center continues to get supplement money from the county general fund in each budget (although it is down considerably from the $750,000 it used to get). So such additional spending will hopefully allow the convention center to be self-sufficient.
However, the final architectural drawings are not yet done, so we shall see!
If you are correct about attendance then the arena would be in direct competition with an venue that currently exists. What sense does that make?
Plus I agree people from the suburbs won't pay double those from Toledo pay... including parking.
MikeyA