Two Sylvania teens lives change - it is not better in Sylvania

The Toledo Blade is reporting the names of the two teens who are now charged with forcing a developmental child to lick a push pop dipped in a urinal then punching and pushing the kids. Bullying is a common thing in schools, and many are affected by it, but what is so interesting is how much these kids are taught it is wrong during the school year so what makes matters worse is that these kids did it anyway.

We hope that Mitchell Miller and Hunter McKie had a lapse in judgment, but according to the story, this appears to have been a longer term issue which is sad. I also wonder how much the parents knew about it - most likely they either knew or did not care. What both of them will soon realize is that their names will be associated with this event forever, and they can either work hard to do overwhelming good or continue down their route and to this situation will just be the beginning. I am hoping that many parents can wake up and talk to their children about bullying and set expectations on that it is wrong and that they should be reported.

This whole story is sad, but does highlight in today's world, if you are not on your best behavior, your name can be splashed across news and social media in a second. It also shows that there are problems wherever you live and they are not just located in Toledo zip codes.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Education/2016/03/01/2-teens-face-charges-of-...

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They made the choice to do something awful to another human being and they are now paying the price.

happens everywhere, and not just in schools, and not just between and among children. Hard to feel sorry for the bullies, though.

Just ask the Republican candidates who have been victimized by The Donald. Gotta love it when he criticizes Rubio for sweating too much, or Fiorina for her looks. Adult bullying is alive and well! The Donald may well ride this bully-train all the way to the White House! Not only can he bully anyone about anything he wants, as The Donald stated himself, "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters." We could very well elect him "Bully-in-Chief!"

That's the real story here. Bullying needs to be cracked down daily. The Blade prints kids names ,that's a first . It should have a good effect

If convicted, the bullies should get the same treatment they dished out, and in public!.

Thank God these weren't minority kids. The way our legal system works minority bullies might get twenty-to-life!

I hate it when that happens.

Mitchell Miller and Hunter McKie didn't have a lapse in judgement. This behavior was ongoing, and they got caught.

The only person I know of on SB with real teaching experience is DalePertcheck. Enlighten me, Dale. What's the real solution here? What did you do when you encountered bullying?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Bullies should be punished as severely as allowed by school districts. Whenever possible, bullying events should be referred to the courts. Judges must take bullying seriously and impose the strictest penalties allowed by law.

In the long run, childhood bullies are not born, they're made by their home environments. Somehow, we have to make parents responsible for the actions of their under-aged children. And, we must be more willing to remove children from home environments which are detrimental to their psyche. We lost a lot when extreme liberals, overly concerned for the rights of natural parents, and extreme conservatives, overly concerned over the cost of housing children taken from homes, closed orphanages around this country. For every "little Orphan Annie" type of orphanage, we had innumerable "Boystown" types. Too many children are raised in terrible home situations, because our courts are pressured by extremists on both sides of the political spectrum, and err on the side of keeping children with "natural" parents who do a horrible job of parenting. We do teach a lot of things in schools. We do almost no teaching about how to be a good parent.

May I add, children who commit suicide because others are bullying them are often among those who would be among the best adult citizens we could have. They are sensitive. They are caring. We need them. When they commit suicide, the entire human community loses. We can and must do better!

protection of my students was concerned, was when the principal at DeVeaux was Earl Apgar, and the assistant principal was John Batson. They set a tone that was followed by the deans, including Fred Atkins, and they came down hard on wrongdoers. Disruptive students, including those who were bullies, not only make learning harder for themselves, they make learning harder for all of those with whom they attend classes. With the team of Earl and John, all of the students knew where they stood. Those were great years to be a teacher!

I must add one name. That would be Kent Smith. Kent was a Physical Education teacher. Often, when one of the deans was out ill or at a meeting, Kent would be an acting dean for the day. Kent NEVER had a line of students waiting for him when he was an acting dean. As Kent often told me, "Mr. Pertcheck, I move them in, and I move them out."
Between first and second periods of such a day, I would hear the students talking among themselves, saying things like, "You don't want to go to the dean's office today. Mr. Smith is in there!"
Kent never did become a full-time administrator. He would have been a great person to work with in that capacity. And, I must add, he was an excellent instructor. I would sometimes stop in his gym to watch when I had a planning period. He had a sound curriculum, based upon physical exercise and long-term health. Kent did NOT just throw out some rubber balls, and say, "Play." He really taught Physical Education. And so did his colleagues!

respect for both Earl Apgar and John Batson.

One time, Earl was walking past my room. This was somewhat unusual since my room was on the second floor in the back of the building. Just as Earl passed, a student was giving me some backtalk. Before I could say a thing, Earl doubled back a few feet, poked his head in the doorway and said, sternly and with authority, "Who said that?!" I pointed out the student. Earl pointed to the student and said, "You! Come with me!" Not only did I never have trouble with that student again all year, but I never had trouble with another student in that class all year! The message had been sent, that teachers were to be respected at all times.

With John, our system was that the assistant principal was the direct supervisor of discipline and of the deans. Perhaps once or twice a year, I felt that a dean wasn't handling a particularly disruptive student well. I would talk with John about it. Invariably, he would say, "The next time you have a problem with that student, send him (or her, but it was usually a male) directly to me if you must send him out of class." Once a student went directly to see Mr. Batson, I never had trouble with that student the rest of he year.

Yes. Working with Earl and John was a great experience.

My own dear mother was a high school teacher. They, the school administrators, used to give Mom the discipline problems, the hard cases and the trouble makers. Mom told me that she didn't have any trouble with any of them. When I asked her why, she told me that she treated them with respect and they responded well to that. This would have been from 1960 to around 1980, so corporal punishment was an option. Mom, by the way, never paddled anyone. She never had to.

What did John Batson do that worked?

And, by the way, I agree with your ideas and general procedure. You're quite right when you say that normally children who exhibit some sort of behavior, whatever that might be, are being treated that way at home.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

than anything else. John was not allowed to paddle. But, he did have the power of suspension. Most parents did not want their child suspended, especially if the child was a discipline problem. Discipline problems at school were usually discipline problems at home, too. And an unsupervised teenager at home alone while parent(s) worked could create chaos in the home, around the home, and/or in the entire neighborhood.
Now, John was a very large, intimidating man physically. He also had another secret weapon. Most of the really disruptive students had run-ins with law enforcement at some point in time. John worked the late shift at the Child Study Institute (Toledo's CSI). If a child got into trouble at school, they might see John. Then, if they got in trouble around their neighborhood and were arrested, they might see John again that night at CSI! They got the feeling he was everywhere! And, of course, John knew all of the police well. And they respected John.
But, the bottom line was attitude. John just had a no-nonsense way about him. And he and I had a mutual respect. Earl not only went along with John, as I pointed out, he often took matters into his own hands as well. They were just great to work with! And while I can't say there was no bullying at all when I worked with Earl and John, it was minimal. I felt that my students were safe when I worked with Earl and John. And I knew that they would support my creating a positive learning environment in my classroom.

My two cents.

First, what the kids did was bad and they should be punished both in the home and at school. I don't believe it warrants a lawsuit.

Second, bullying can be tough but it is also a learning tool. It teaches kids how to deal with bullying later in life when there's no one to protect you. In any competitive industry bullying does occur. Being able to respond to it in a mature way comes from experience and helps create a strong moral compass.

Third, I believe the bland was wrong to print the name of any of the kids involved. While what they did was despicable they are still kids and don't need their whole lives tarnished. I made a lot of mistakes at 14 years of age. I paid for them by parents and educators who strongly disciplined me. I learned my lesson and am a better man because of it. Anyone judging me for a mistake I made in my early youth would be making an inaccurate judgement.

The solution is more discipline. The problem is only a lack thereof.

MikeyA

You're right that the media should not publish the names of juveniles. But you're dead wrong about bullying.
Bullying is terrible in ALL cases. Are you serious? As adults, we should learn, "how to deal with bullying later in life when there's no one to protect you." Have you never heard of adults being sued by other adults for bullying tactics? Have you never heard of adults being charged for stalking, physical and/or sexual harassment? Didn't Ray Rice lose his career only because his bullying was caught on camera? Does it not bother you that too many victims of bullies take their own lives? Does it bother you that too many victims of bullies become cowed into isolated lives as adults? No wonder you keep defending The Donald. He's a grown-up bully!
Mikey -- You're starting to sound more and more like Col. Jessup, Jack Nicholson's character in "A Few Good Men." Do we really toughen people up by abusing them? I know that military training is tough, but I thought they did away with most of the truly abusive tactics. Didn't they find out that such abuse did little to properly train soldiers and sailors, but fed the weird egos of the abusers?
I fully agree with the last sentence you posted. But "more discipline" includes use of the police and the courts when warranted! And the "lack thereof" includes NOT getting the courts involved to let young bullies know just how serious their actions are! This is NOT, "boys will be boys." Mikey...if you're not part of the solution...

Lol if you knew me you'd know I am not macho at all. I recognize it as a necessity of human survival but I don't adopt it's tenants into any part of my life.

I wrote my post from my own experience. I was bullied in school and my parents made me deal with it.

Police and law involvement is NOT discipline. It is punishment and the two are not the same. Legal avenues are being sought to avoid being a parent and to avoid being a school disciplinarian.

MikeyA

Right. You were bullied in school, you took your problem to your parents and they told you to deal with it. So you went back to school and took care of business, one way or another, and the bullying stopped.

The difference here is that this victim isn't like you. He can't protect himself against these cretins. If he could, this incident wouldn't have happened to him, although I think it's very likely that a similar incident would have happened to someone else.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

So, MikeyA, are you admitting that bullies stuck a lollipop in a urinal and made you eat it? I am not surprised you again appear to support entitlement.

No, I was beaten up by kids larger than me if you want to get specific.

What entitlement am I supporting?

MikeyA

The cure for abusive behavior should not be restricted to more and better discipline. You cure it by replacing bad behavior with good behavior. I don't know how things stand today, but when I went to public school there were no courses in graceful human behavior. I'm willing to believe there aren't any now. Worse, a few of the school teachers were sadistic and enjoyed violence. We had one that I still believe belonged in prison or a psych hospital.

It's pretty clear that in this case the parents are as much at fault as the perpetrators. While parents and other authority figures might take Mitchell Miller and Hunter McKie and explain to them in great detail that their behavior is completely unacceptable, I'll bet that no one will begin teaching them how to behave and what acceptable behavior is.

As far as printing their names in the paper, I don't think their lives are ruined. I think they'll be uncomfortable for a while, and that's as far as it will go. I'm also wondering if, after a certain age, the parents should be held criminally responsible for acts committed by their children.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

their names appear in the media.

There is a stark difference between stern punishment and sadism. If a sadist is a school official, that only adds to the potential bully's notion that might makes right.

We do diverge somewhat in our views of what you reference as holding parents to be responsible for the actions of their children, "after a certain age." That might be too late. Parents should be forced to get counseling at least. There is something wrong in the family dynamic which creates a bully. The younger the child is when intervention occurs, the more likely it is that interventions can change those behavior patterns for the better. The adult(s) in the family must be involved in the process, in order for the chance of success with the child to increase.

himself or herself. I was never bullied, but I was sort of a big (not tall) guy, and I was fairly athletic. That gave me an image as a somewhat tough guy.
Generally, bullies pick on females, usually smaller females, and/or nerd-types. Talk to a psychologist about this dynamic sometime, Mikey. That person will probably point out to you that a typical bully is usually a victim of bullying himself or herself somewhere in his/her life. Also, many who bully see their mother victimized by one or more male adults. The way the typical bully views the world is that those who are physically strong, rule. Bullies then define their own self-worth by how many people are in fear of them. Even sexual harassment becomes a form of being in control of another human being, rather than focusing on the sexual act or acts as such. BTW -- Bullies need counseling, too!
When bullying rises to the point of clear violations of the law, law enforcement and the courts are an important part of the disciplinary process. And your delineating a difference between "discipline" and "punishment" shows your own bias, Mikey. Here is the first definition of "discipline" according to Merriam-Webster: "Control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior." In short, "punishment" is a way to enforce discipline.
By your answer, you need to learn what it is like to actually run a k-12 classroom. I could always take care of my own discipline, but -- and this is a big but -- would the time I would have to take out of the instructional period be justified in order to handle a truly disruptive student? Teachers must create an environment most conducive to learning. Sometimes, the best thing to do, is to remove a disruptive student from the classroom and allow an administrator to deal with that individual so that the teacher can get back to teaching asap. The sterner the administrator is with disruptive students, the less students will disrupt. And, if a student violates the law while in school, any school official is legally bound to report such a violation -- and should do so!
Let me add some anecdotal evidence. When I was teaching in an elementary school, I ate lunch with a special education teacher for a few years. She taught those identified with severe behavioral problems. Every single time a new student was assigned to her, that student had a horror story in his/her personal life. These included, being locked in a closet all night, or even for days at a time; being chained to a bed; being consistently battered physically, and/or sexually abused; etc. Bullying students, and young students who are chronically disruptive, are seldom born that way. They are made that way by the environment in which they are raised!
Finally, I did not claim that you were "macho." You may be; you may not be. I don't really know. What I stated, and deliberately so was, "You give a prototypical macho male analysis here." And, " You're starting to sound more and more like Col. Jessup, Jack Nicholson's character in 'A Few Good Men.'"

You say a lot yet very little.

Bullying is not limited to size or gender. In fact, you're wrong many times bullying is not primarily to small females or size. Bullying in its most common form is ostracization. Singling someone out and verbally intimidating is the most common form because virtually anyone can do it as words can be used by anyone with a voice.

An example, you call Trump a bully. Yet his size intimidates no one. So how does he do it?

The most common bullies I've found were women who bullied others through rumors and backstabbing. I've found this the most in the workplace than a school. While the bullying I endured was physical I learned the best response was verbal and to not be intimidated and instead fight physical bullying with verbal bullying.

I work in a macho culture yet I am not a part of that culture. My adaptation was/is to be mentally and verbally faster than those who believe in machismo and would try to intimidate me.

There is no substitute for a strong mind.

MikeyA

very rich -- can be used to intimidate others. And at 6'2'' or so, and at well over 200 lbs., as well as coming from a very rich family,The Donald probably never did have to worry about being bullied. You are correct in one way. Perceived weakness is not always related to size alone.

And you toss out so-called "truths" as if you have a reliable source for these fallacious statements. Here's an article pointing out a lot of the fallacies in what you state: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/school-bullies-linked-domestic-vio...
Here's another: http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php
Women are a lot more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of bullying and other forms of abuse. Most children who bully, grow up to abuse their significant others, unless professional intervention intercedes.
While nearly one in four women report being victims of rape or intended rape in their lifetimes, only about one in seventy-one men report the same. Now, as reluctant as anyone is to admit they were victimized in this way, men are much less likely to admit to this. However, even if we triple or quadruple the number for men, it doesn't come close to the number of female victims. And, as is pointed out in one of these articles, nearly twice as high a percentage of females report sexual assaults in the military as do males.
If you really believe that women are not much more victimized in our society than are men, Mikey, you're living in Egypt on this issue.

When we are younger, size and physical aggression can be most intimidating factors regarding bullying. Not only is this my perception from my own personal experiences, but I observed this to be the case during my 35 years of being a classroom teacher. Adults, especially female adults, are often intimidated by someone who has financial power over them, such as: a spouse, a supervisor, an important client, etc. I can't tell you how many times I spoke with female colleagues outside of school hours -- intelligent, educated women -- who were in relationships where they were victims of physical and/or emotional abuse because they had such low self-esteem, and/or were worried about how they would do financially if they were to break off their relationship, and what would happen to their children. This was also the case with many of the mothers of my students. This was rarely the case with male colleagues or fathers of my students. Ask any good divorce attorney. (S)he will tell you that women often give up a lot financially in order to get primary custody of their children, and men often instruct their attorneys to go for custody of the children only as a bargaining chip so they can keep more of the financial assets of the couple.

Being a woman in most societies in fraught with much more danger than being a man. I remember seeing the comedian Rita Rudner. She talked about her husband wanting to "take a midnight stroll along the river." She said to him, "You can go alone. I'm not taking a stroll in an isolated location like that at midnight! You don't have to walk around with a vagina!" Neither do you, Mikey. Neither do you!

1 in 4 are not potential victims of rape. You're miss using the stat. The stat is 1 in 4 claim to have been sexually assaulted in college. Sexual assault is not rape. Sexual assault can be just trying to kiss a girl inappropriately but that is not rape.

If that stat were true anyway then anyone allowing their daughter to go to college is a horrible person. If my son had a 1 in 4 chance of being hurt doing something I wouldn't let him do it.

Secondly women are bullied in the clear majority of cases by other women. So if women are bullied the most then that also means most women are bullies.

I will not be commenting on this issue with you further because your willingness to misuse and misread stats are a product of severe bias and thus would be an exercise in futility for me. Good day.

MikeyA

You're just a "good ol' boy."

You distorted my claims. That's very much like The Donald!

I have two friends. They were once married They have three adult children together. One is male. Two are twin girls (fraternal twins). The two girls lived on campus at BGSU, in the giant, wild metropolis of Bowling Green, Ohio, many years ago. They were both victims of rape. For that family, that's a rate of sexual assault of 100% of the female children. Rape is one of the least reported of all crimes.
You are living in Egypt on this issue, Mikey.

assaults: http://www.rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexua...
Please note that females are far more likely to be victimized by sexual assault than are men. In addition, females are very seldom those who assault others in any way. And, false reports of sexual assault, as well as other crimes, only runs around 2%.

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