Whites Commit the Worst Crimes, So Why Are Whites Afraid Of Black Americans?

Who do we need to be afraid of? Black or White Americans?


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the fact is a disproportionate number of crimes are committed by African-Americans, and overwhelmingly their victims are also African-Americans. If police did not patrol African-American communities disproportionately, they would be leaving the majority of hard-working, productive African-American citizens less well protected. Statistically, in 2013, of the 3005 whites who were murdered, 2,509 were killed by other whites; and of the 2491 blacks who were murdered in 2013, 2245 were killed by other blacks. Here's a link to the stats: http://www.aim.org/special-report/black-criminals-white-victims-and-whit...

I lived through the 1960s. I well remember the wide-spread antagonism shown by African-Americans toward police. Since then, the proportion of minority officers in most police departments became much more closely aligned with the proportion of minorities in the general population. African-Americans from my generation started to see the police in a different light. They wanted to be better protected from those who would do crimes, mostly to them! This does not negate the fact that being a minority, particularly an African-American in our society, makes it more likely that one will be harassed by the police. My African-American friends have told me about these kinds of situations. But, overall, most police officers are sincere in wanting to "Protect and Serve" ALL of the citizens, and do so while being as color-blind as possible.

Once again, what is it called when someone blames an entire group of people for the transgressions of a few?

Police are dedicated to protecting property, not people.

Every group has some embarrassing members.

Remind me, please...what do you call it again when you blame an entire group of people for the transgressions of a few?

Dale, is the word you are alluding to called RACISM?

To me, a better term, with a broader definition, is "stereotype." While this could apply to one who is racist, it could also apply to those who make generalized statements about, and/or have preconceived judgements about, ANY group, based upon factors other than race.
Here's the definition of stereotype according to Merriam-Webster: "To believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same." Certainly racism fits into this definition, along with several other forms of prejudice and bigotry.

As Martin King admonished us to do, we should judge people as individuals by the "content of their character," rather than stereotyping based upon their race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual preference, and/or occupation.

is white mean that all or most white people are out to kill African-Americans?



Remind me again, please...what do you call it when you blame an entire group of people for the transgressions of a few...or even one?

What do I call it? Mob violence.

definition I wrote.
Here is the legal definition of "mob violence" as found on the Free Dictionary site, Legal Dictionary part: "Riot: A disturbance of the peace by several persons, assembled and acting with a common intent in executing a lawful or unlawful enterprise in a violent and turbulent manner."

Again, I ask respectfully, what do you call it when you blame an entire group of people for the transgressions of a few...or even just one?

I was born in 1947. Both of my parents were Jewish as were all four of my grandparents. As I grew up, I heard a LOT of anti-German talk from my family and our family friends. The Holocaust was still fresh in the hearts and souls of Jews everywhere. There was a great distrust, and I should say collective blame placed by many Jews upon people of German background.
And, although I grew up in a neighborhood that had few Jews, I didn't know anyone who flaunted their German heritage, until I met Fritz. I met (Frederick) Fritz Bertz at DeVilbiss High School. Don't get me wrong. Fritz did not hate Jews. He was merely proud of his German heritage. There were a substantial number of Jews attending DeVilbiss in those days, so Fritz quickly found out I was one of "them." Did this affect our friendship? Not in the least. We would sometimes tease each other about how we could be such good friends, but, by his friendship and his acceptance, Fritz taught me never to judge a whole group of people by the actions of a few, or even of many, as happened in the Holocaust.
That has served me well in my life. I have learned not to prejudge others, whether positively or negatively, based upon any "group" of which they may be a part. Most police officers are good people. Most are willing to risk their lives to save other people. Do they also try to protect property? I suppose so. But those I have known, and with whom I have worked, put people first, and do so without prejudice. So, I would caution you to be careful when you make unsubstantiated statements condemning all police officers because some of them transgress in violent and terrifying ways.

When you see one white male enter an African-American church for a bible study, that person may just bring his mentality from his all white community and just start killing folks! He can't help it. It's part of his culture, you know!

BTW -- Our grandchildren were playing with a new friend in the front yard today, and an African-American child actually came to our house and was playing there for a while. He looked OK, but one never knows. Maybe he's bringing his "thug" mentality to our neighborhood. He looked to be quite young, like 8 or 9. Maybe he'll develop his "thug" mentality as he ages a bit. I know that GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass won't believe that I, a liberal, really live in a neighborhood with African-Americans no matter what factual information I post.
BTW...still waiting for the "thug" mentality to invade my neighborhood.
Been waiting more than a decade.
Still waiting.
Still waiting.
Still waiting.

The South Carolina Church massacre reinforces the subject of my post. White America gets outraged when when a Black person shoots a person in the Hood, but finds mass murders committed by Whites as isolated incidents. Isn't it interesting that this kind of person will attack people who are not in a position to shoot back: movie theaters, schools, churches?

According to one report I read, the suspect, who has now confessed to the massacre, stated to one survivor that he was going to commit suicide. Of course, he didn't. That would take a modicum of courage which this coward obviously does not have. Cowards massacre the innocent. Cowards choose situations in which they are often not threatened with having violence done to them, as they do violence to others.

To some extent, the act of suicide itself can be a cowardly act, because suicide often is a way to avoid facing the consequences of one's own actions, as it would be in this case. It's scum like this that beg society to keep the death penalty, with all of its lack of provable deterrence, and the possibility that capital punishment is sometimes carried out on someone who is later found to be innocent. However, lethal injection seems to be too kind for this dirt-bag.

segregationist. He was also well known for always carrying a handgun with him. It is said that his parents gave him the gun as a 21st birthday present.
Hmmm...someone who espouses segregation AND gun ownership.

Here's a link to an on-line article about Roof. May I suggest that you also click on the mini-headline entitled "A Closer Look at Alleged Gunman Dylann Roof."

If you think "White America", as you call it, isn't outrage at the shooting you are an idiot. Everyone is outraged and no group other than racist groups ( of which there are few) are supporting it. This asshole needs to never see the light of day and will probably get the death penalty.

The issue is this type of crime is not frequent. The shootings of Black people by Black people is more frequent and that is just a fact.

Of course this type of violence happens in "gun free" zones. It's those "racist Republican" who advocate against gun free zones. Notice how many of us believe the answer to black on black violence is to get more hands into black people?


Do you think White Americans will have to reinstate lynching picnics before you get the message? Also, answer three questions. Is it easier to get a gun illegally or legally. Can you borrow a gun from someone? You have guns legally. Should Americans fear you?

What message? "White America" doesn't support lynchings nor this crime.

As for legally and illegally, the people who want to shoot people get their guns illegally. As was how they were obtained in this case. The shooter did not purchase the guns, was a felon and thus having possession of it was illegal. Only people who are legally allowed to carry can borrow a weapon. In the current case the shooter got the gun from someone who knew he was a felon.


All three of your asinine questions apply to YOU as well as US.

Or intersections, like where Reginald Denny got a cinder block cracked over his head?

You frequently demand that of posters, here is my answer: Make no mistake white Americans are most definitely not afraid of black Americans. That is your fervent fantasy.

That's because they want to be considered a real threat, as opposed to only a bunch of annoyances.

All of you can whine all you want, The truth really hurts, doesn't it.

I for one am sick of all this color-coding of Americans! White, Black, truth is we are all Americans and as such need to stop playing the race card every time one side is harmed by the other! We are who we are by birth or by choice!

I'll tell you, if you ever start telling the truth. Drivel doesn't scare or hurt me.

I just received a message from a friend of mine in Birmingham, Alabama. The Black churches are hiring armed security guards. Isn't it a shame you can't go to a church without fear of terrorism or having your church burned to the ground.

At every major function at the temple my wife and I attend, there has been an off-duty Sylvania Township police officer present for several years, hired by our temple.
I am old enough to remember taking people to the Toledo or Detroit airports and sitting with them at their gate until they boarded their plane for their flight.
I also remember living in the central city of Toledo and always having our outside doors unlocked.
It is a sad commentary on our times that we have evolved into a more fearful society from the more neighborly society we once were, in less than one lifetime. This evolution has certainly created fodder for an unlimited number of masters theses, doctoral dissertations, and books.

No one knows the answer to this problem. Some here and many elsewhere, believe the answer is to have everybody, or at least every law-abiding citizen who is not a mental patient, armed at all times. The thing is that, when I speak to those who are always armed, they seem to be among the most insecure people I know.
I can only propose that a better society begins with all of us ascribing to the ideals Jefferson articulated in the Declaration of Independence. It is all a matter of mutual respect. Only then can we truly have a society which fulfills Jefferson's vision of a nation which provides the best opportunity for all of its citizens to enjoy, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This goal should be free of artificial interference from other members of our society, and also from government. Government should enhance and encourage a more harmonious society, not be a barrier to a more fulfilled life.

Firstly, canceling the "gun free zone" is a sensible move. Being inside a GFZ puts you at the most risk.

Secondly, why would a church need to hire a security guard? Every adult person inside that church has the right to keep and bear arms. The pastor can arm himself. The cost would be effectively zero.

Hate Crimes Against African Americans
Despite the election of our nation's first African-American president, African Americans remain by far the most frequent victims of hate crimes. Of the 7,624 hate crime incidents reported nationwide in 2007, the most recent year for which data is available, 34 percent (2,659) were perpetrated against African Americans, a number and percentage of incidents that has changed little over the past 10 years. According to the FBI's HCSA report, more than twice as many hate crimes were reported against African Americans as against any other group.

From lynching, to burning crosses and churches, to murdering a man by chaining him to a truck and dragging him down a road for three miles, anti-black violence has been and still remains the prototypical hate crime, intended not only to injure and kill individuals but to terrorize an entire group of people. Hate crimes against African Americans have an especially negative impact upon society for the history they recall and perpetuate, potentially intimidating not only African Americans, but other minority, ethnic, and religious groups.

being African-American is somehow an advantage in today's America. Statistics simply do not support this ludicrous position.
While some are fortunate enough to take advantage of growing opportunities for African-Americans today, anyone who thinks it is easier to be a minority than it is to be white in America today is simply delusional. They have fallen for the propaganda of the far right and/or are desperately trying to find a reason for their own failures, other than by looking in a mirror!
We have a long way to go before we become a society where every individual American has equal opportunity to achieve all he or she is capable of achieving. But, this goes much further as far as the benefits to society. As more individuals from all American minority groups, as well as a majority group -- females -- maximize their opportunities, all of society benefits. We have less tax users and have more taxpayers. We have a higher percentage of productive citizens who contribute to improving life for us all. Creating a society which improves opportunity for all as we concurrently eschew prejudice, helps all Americans.

Biggest racist on this site? Who do you all think it is?



GiMan, maybe you need to take a look in the mirror.

Military people? Just like Hitler blamed the Jews for all of Germany's problems the far right is trying to blame minorities for all this country's short comings. Concentration camps have already been created (prisons). All a minority has to do is steal a loaf of bread and get a ten year sentence. Flee a traffic stop and you get shot in the back five times. Walk home with some Skittles and a soda and vigilantes will kill you. White Terrorism Is As Old As America.


Racist Dems

It's those racist Dems who want to put people in concentration camps! They have done it once before with the Japanese. They also ended reconstruction and insituted Jim Crow.

For the last 40 years they have kept policies like school choice and concealed carry down. These policies could help Black America's advancement and safety but instead they ignore the problems and fear monger the Black people into continually voting in large groups.

But why would you want to debate facts and tangible issues when you can spread ignorant racist hyperbole?


Racist Dems

It's those racist Dems who want to put people in concentration camps! They have done it once before with the Japanese. They also ended reconstruction and insituted Jim Crow.

For the last 40 years they have kept policies like school choice and concealed carry down. These policies could help Black America's advancement and safety but instead they ignore the problems and fear monger the Black people into continually voting in large groups.

But why would you want to debate facts and tangible issues when you can spread ignorant racist hyperbole?


Because he's just like any other troll.

You are correct. It was the racist Dems who did all that, but, something changed. When the racist Dems felt that minorities were getting too much from the Northern Dems, the Racist Dems abandoned the Democratic Party and joined the Republican Party. Those used to be racist Dems are now racist Republicans. All these racists did was change their name tags. Let's face it, the philosophy of Manifest Destiny is alive and well.


I gave you two current examples that the "racism switched party" hypothesis is false. You have not provided anything to dispel those facts/issues.


First of all, thank you, Mikey, for not denying that most of the bigoted Southern Democrats of the past and their progeny, are now in the Republican Party. Just look at voting patterns in the South, and this is obvious.

"School choice" is a term used by modern segregationists that really means "re-segregation of schools," and siphoning needed funds away from traditional public schools which given minorities the best chance to compete for positions in college and professional and technical positions in the job market with the children of privilege; and putting as much of our tax money into the hands of private entrepreneurs who help to fund conservative campaigns for political offices! "School choice" in Ohio has lined the pockets of people like David Brennan, whose "for profit" charter schools have been abysmal failures, overall. David Brennan has contributed a huge amount of money to Ohio candidates in statewide races and in races for the Ohio General Assembly over more than 2 decades now. Hmmm...good investment strategy, Davey!
"Concealed carry" is trotted out by the right-wingers to somehow excuse their desire to have legal recourse to vigilante justice. Most of the proponents of "concealed carry" couldn't care less about minorities. Those with whom I have spoken in casual, unguarded conversations, almost universally relish in the killing of young African-American males by other African-American males, most often in gang-related gun violence. Conservatives perceive this to be a justifiable pruning of undesirables from society. When asked if it wouldn't be better for society to educate and train these miscreants for a better life style, or, better yet, put more time, money, and effort into early child education that can divert young minorities away from a violent lifestyle, most offer the "solution" to the problem of violence as simply to build more prisons!

Just look at the voting patterns! Most minorities overwhelmingly support Democrats because, unlike you apparently, Mikey, THEY understand which party has more racists and which party wants to keep minorities in a position of permanent subordination! And they won't vote for (mostly) bigoted Republicans!

You want a "modern" issue? Just look at the Confederate battle flag that flies outside of the South Carolina capitol building! Dr. Ben wants the leaders of South Carolina to rethink whether this is appropriate or not. Willard, who isn't running this year, so he can express his true feelings publicly, has called for South Carolina to remove that symbol of hatred, slavery, and racial segregation. Even Jeb said that the Confederate battle flag (it wasn't even the national flag of the Confederacy, but it was, appropriately for bigots, the "battle" flag), removed from in front of Florida government buildings when he was governor. Let's just see if the South Carolina government, dominated by Republicans, will take action. I predict that the Confederate battle flag will STILL be in front of South Carolina state buildings when the Republican Primary for POTUS is run in early 2016, AND when we have the General Election for POTUS in November next year. To me, this is an absolutely on-target example of where today's Republican Party stands on the issue of race in America. If you want to win the next election for POTUS, Mikey, and maintain the same positions on these issues which Republicans have staked out these past few decades, I guess you'll just have to keep fanning the flames of racial hatred enough to get a huge majority among white, non-Hispanic voters, while suppressing the minority vote. Isn't that what most of the Republicans running for POTUS are espousing?
Where do YOU stand on the appropriateness of flying the Confederate battle flag in ANY state, Mikey? Just a note: The African-American population of South Carolina is about 28% and the Hispanic population is about 5%. That means that almost 1/3 of all South Carolinians are minorities. Hmmm...

Amen, brother.

The Dixiecrats didn't all jump to the GOP. Sen Byrd is an example of one who remained a Dem and was forgiven for his racism. Plus of those who went to the GOP it's important to note the GOP did not adopt their platform and the party has remained steadfast in giving opportunities to minorities.

You are completely wrong on school choice. If anything it does not segregate because in most cases where school choice is implemented it is done so via random lottery but there is not a cookie cutter template for it so it's hard to make broad sweeping generalizations on the specifics. One thing is clear from the facts and stats. School choice works for minorities. Saying that public schools offer more opportunities for minorities is wrong. Private school students outperform their public school peers even when factored for income.

Opposition to school choice serves only to support failing teacher's unions and keep minorities boxed into a corner.

On the confederate flag. I view it the same as the image of Che Guevera. To some it means hate to others it means freedom.

Now I fully support removing it from the statehouses currently because it serves to deny the shooter his objectives. He will have to watch the backlash to his actions and know he did not forward his cause. And fuck the media for publishing his manifesto! The media WANTS race wars! The media WANTS mass shootings! Every profiler says they need to stop giving these guys air time if you want to stop mass shootings.

What I don't support is the retailers stopping from selling the confederate flag. We have to be accepting of speech especially when we don't like it. I don't support burning the flag but I accept it's practice as a necessary tool of having free speech.


If you look at test scores in Ohio's schools, the very worst as a whole are the "for profit" charter schools, especially those run by David Brennan's White Hat Management company.

When the original charter law was passed, it was written so that no charter school could be run "for profit." However, once a charter is granted, the people with the charter can contract with a private "for profit" company to run the school for them. Typically, the "for profit" company runs the school as cheaply as possible. In other words, they pay their teachers very little, so that they have a huge amount of turnover. As soon as a teacher can get a better job, whether in or out of education, they leave their teaching job at the charter school.
In addition, even though these "for profit" charter schools run almost exclusively on our public tax dollars, unlike traditional public schools, they cannot be audited by the Ohio Auditor of State, because they are private firms. Many have closed directly or indirectly because of financial disasters, often actual malfeasance. Guess where the children go when these charter schools close? Most go to the local traditional public school closest to the closed charter, and often in the middle of a school year. You're right, Mikey, charter schools are great for these children all righty!
As I stated above, the main reason charter schools were created on a massive scale was to make profits for multi-millionaires like David Brennan, not to help any children of any race or ethnicity!

When the charter schools were created, the promise was that they would greatly outperform traditional public schools. In fact, most of them do not perform as well as comparable traditional public schools. Diane Ravitch, a former assistant secretary of education in the George H.W. Bush Administration, was once a strong, outspoken supporter of charter schools. Remember, they've been around for over 2 decades now. They are far from new. As she studied them, Ms. Ravitch faced the reality that most of these charters, especially those run "for profit," were just abominable. And Ohio's charter law is one of the worst in the nation, allowing for very little oversight, and allowing almost anyone to qualify for a charter. I strongly suggest that before you pontificate about a subject, you study it thoroughly, Mikey. I bow to your expertise in the area of weaponry and military strategy and tactics, but you are far from an expert on education.
Here's a link to a recent article in the Springfield (OH) News-Sun: http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/news/local/ohio-legislation-favor...
Here's a link to Diane Ravitch's recent book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Reign-Error-Privatization-Movement-Americas/dp/034...
And here's a link to a review of Diane Ravitch's book, "Reign of Error": http://www.texasobserver.org/diane-ravitch-says-public-school-reformers-...
Finally, here's a link that shows how charter schools are failing Ohio's most needy students: http://www.plunderbund.com/2013/08/24/new-state-report-card-proves-ohios...
As you can see from the data presented, far from being the savior of urban students, charter schools have been places where children learn little and graduate at a substantially lower rate than they do their peers who attend traditional public schools. This is an article based upon data from 2013.
Please, please ,please, Mikey...stick to facts, not your gut feelings or the propaganda promulgated by the corporate entities who care for profit only, and care not one whit for the welfare of our children.

Ah ha,

See you only reference charter schools. There are also voucher programs in other states that allow students to go to private schools ... not charter schools. Private schools do significantly better than public across the board.

Like I said there is no cookie cutter answer because each state has a different definition of school choice.

I don't have to be an expert on education to know the quality of student is dropping because I see the finished product and I have witnessed a drop off.


too! You are deluding yourself, and/or falling for the right-wing propaganda on this issue.

The Milwaukee Schools have the longest running voucher program for school-aged students. I will link to the entire article from 2014, but here is a direct quote: "On average, students in Milwaukee's private-school voucher program still performed lower than students in the city's traditional public school system."
Here's the link to the article: http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/voucher-students-post-gain-in-mat...

I cannot speak to the quality of those you must train. You are an expert on that. I can only speculate that it is possible that those you would consider to be better candidates for your program never apply, and you're getting more candidates who are inferior because of their individual choices of occupations. The statistics are clear when we look at them. Add to this the fact that requirements for high school graduation are higher almost universally, and that students must pass high stakes tests to receive a diploma, and we know that those who claim schools were more demanding, "when I was a kid," are delusional. For example, when I was matriculating through high school in the 1960s, I know that many of my peers never had to take math above the "basic," "business," or "consumer" level. Now, every Ohio graduate MUST take Algebra AND Geometry in order to graduate!
Sorry to use actual facts to make my argument. I know that ideologues on both the left and the right hate facts, and prefer gut feelings.

Dale you like experts? How about Duke University? Here's a summary of their study. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_02.htm

How about Standford's Professor C. Hoxby? http://www.nber.org/chapters/c10091.pdf

These are controlled studies. Hoxby's study even talks about how Milwaukee's school system experienced a rise from public schools located near voucher participating private schools.

Now these are years long studies with controls for a variety of factors. It is not a single year snapshot of one test. Even your article notes that several of the schools while doing poorly on the state test saw scores rising in the ACT. So the question becomes which test is more valid?

I agree my situation is anecdotal. However I know I'm not alone.


articles. The first was published THIRTEEN YEARS AGO. The second was published FIFTEEN YEARS AGO!! The article to which I linked is from 2014!! Milwaukee started its voucher program in 1990! Vouchers are NOT successful -- period!

I am not opposed to competition. I am not opposed to charter schools per se. What I am opposed to is charter school laws like those in Michigan and Ohio that allow flim-flam profiteers to exploit mostly inner city children to line their pockets with our tax dollars!!

Originally, the idea of charter schools was championed by the American Federation of Teachers President, Albert Shanker. He, and others, conceived of a few charter schools in each large school district which were able to run free of the restrictions that most states have written into their laws about how public schools could run. Shanker saw this as a way to free educators from cumbersome regulations so that positive innovations could take place. Innovations that worked could be replicated in other, traditional public schools for the betterment of children!

We know what works in educating young people from all backgrounds:
1. Quality early childhood education (pre-K).
2. Small class sizes in early elementary, preferably K-6, but at least K-3.
3. High quality teachers who go through a quality first year intern year under an experienced, high quality mentor-teacher (NOT an administrator, who no longer teaches). Teachers who aren't good enough get fired within one year or less!
4. Teachers who are trained to work with small class sizes, and accept the responsibility to partner fully with parents/caregivers of their students.
5. School administrators who understand that their primary job is to facilitate a productive learning environment with as little disruption as possible.
6. Standardized testing that is limited to diagnostic tests to help teachers and parents help their students/children.

You, Mikey, are an expert in your field. I am an expert in mine.

I do NOT agree that the media, as a whole, desire race wars or mass shootings. The fact is that all the media desire is money! There's a VERY old saying in the news business, "If it bleeds, it leads." People ask all the time, "Why isn't there more good news on newscasts?" The simple answer is, few people watch when all the news is good news. They want controversy. And if people do not watch a newscast in bigger numbers, the program must charge lower fees for advertising. And businesses are in business to make a profit! Duh!
Back about 20 years ago, I remember Larry King being on someone else's talk show, and being asked about why his show had so much coverage of the OJ Simpson case, when so many people claimed that they were sick of it and OJ too! Mr. King stated that he could read the polls, too. He knew that people said that they were fed up with the entire OJ thing. Remember, the trial itself dragged out for the better part of an entire year! However, Mr. King stated that the nights when he would have standard guests, even very high profile performers, his ratings sank. When he had people on talking about the OJ case, ratings soared. CNN likes money. When ratings are higher, they can charge more for advertising and they make more money. Money is the motivation, When we, as a public, choose to stop watching violence and killing on the news, the news will show it less. As long as ratings are higher when the news is more violent -- when the news is "bad" -- news programs will continue to show the most violent parts of our society. "If it bleeds, it leads."

Look, I've asked people about their view of violent crime in America. Most are certain that there is more violent crime today than at any time in the history of our country. Statistics, gathered the exact same way now as in the recent past, prove that, in fact, the violent crime rate is now about 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago! That's right! 1/2!!! But, we watch the news, and -- all together now -- "If it bleeds, it leads."

I disagree.

A Black man gets shot by another Black man and it does not lead. A white man shoots a Black man and it most certainly will lead.


the lead story was about a shooting of an African-American in the inner city. Such shootings happen far too frequently, and such shootings almost always are the lead stories on the local media outlets. It's all about more viewers and more money. Money rules!!
"If it bleeds, it leads."

the shooting and capture of the white escaped killer from the New York prison, by a white police officer. "If it bleeds, it leads."

accused of starting an arson fire in which two Toledo Fire Fighters died.

All together now, "If it bleeds, it leads!!"

All together, once again: "If it bleeds, it leads."

False equivalencies. That is all you are posting. Everyone knows it.


Sometimes I have thoughts that MaikeyA is becoming logical. I need to abandon those thoughts.

It's all about money. It has nothing to do with ideology. It has nothing to do with race per se. It's all about ratings and advertising rates.
More people watch bad news.
"If it bleeds, it leads."

The Confederate Flag in my opinion is the flag of a foreign country. The South succeeded from the Union and started their own country, "The Confederate States of America". If the Confederate flag is allowed to be displayed at public institutions, then why not display a Russian flag or Iranian flag. Jindal is Governor of Louisiana, why doesn't he display an Indian flag at the state capital.The retailers not selling the Confederate flag is also the retailers right to free speech. Those people who want a Confederate flag can go to Jo Ann's Fabrics, buy the materials and make their own flag and use it whatever way they want that is compliant with the law.

I'm enjoying watching the Fascist self destruct. Just like the Nazis in Germany, the chickens are coming home to roost.

Here's a link to an article about how frightened the folks are in Chillicothe because of disappearing and murdered young women.

Chillicothe sure fits the scary profile...a booming population of 22,000 people. (Gotta watch out for those scary big cities, you know.) I've actually been to Chillicothe. It's downtown has some buildings that are over 2 stories tall! I guess Chillicothe must have been invaded by some folks with a "thug" mentality. Right GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass? And these victims! According to the article, they were all either drug addicts, prostitutes, or both. And Chillicothe has a high rate of poverty, just like we always find in big cities of 22,000 people. Right Mr. Empty Glass?
BTW -- I looked it up. I got an old set of statistics, from the 2000 census. At that time the African-American percentage in Chillicothe was 7.51% Could that be enough to turn Chillicothe into a hotbed of "thug" culture? Here's the link: http://chillicothe.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Hmmm...How can this be, GZ aka Chicken Little? Likes are living with likes there in Chillicothe. Hmmm...

A serial killer can radically alter the crime statistics in an area. That hardly contends with what I've said about the highly positive correlation between Black populations and crime.

Just like with the following: The next mass shooter is likely to be White, but that doesn't mean that White populations aren't safer and more peaceful than Black populations in the United States.

I can tell that you certainly didn't teach math in your schools. Or if you did, your Liberal ideology didn't permit you to accept what the statistics of race and class told you. Fortunately most people know your bleating bloviations are just bullshit. Everyone knows that to have a worthwhile home and family life, you have to live where there are few Blacks, particularly few Blacks in the school system. Not zero, since that's hard to arrange... just significantly less than the national average of 13%. When you get into communities that have 2-5% of Blacks, they are significantly safer and more fulfilling than otherwise.

Everyone knows this. Few people will admit it, however. It's a "dirty little secret" in the American lifestyle. And with changing demographics, among other things, it's going to have to stop being a forbidden topic. Americans need to engage in a very open dialog about race and class. And this open dialog needs to recognize all socio-economic moves by all races and classes. Nothing can be taboo or there's no point in the exercise. We need to admit that Whites flee rising-Black areas. We need to admit that Blacks harbor grudges against Whites. We need to admit that Blacks are responsible for half of the violent crime in the nation. We need to admit that most murder victims already have criminal records. Etc.

GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass -- Statistically, most whites who are attacked, are attacked by whites. Most African-Americans who are attacked, are attacked by African-Americans. Most Hispanics who are attacked, are attacked by Hispanics. These facts have been the same for decades! And I know that, like most ideologues, you hate facts. Sorry!
And -- I must point out -- that contrary to popular belief, the rate of violent crime today is about 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. More facts. Sorry, again!

Race is a factor. But the greater factor is poverty. When we open up opportunities to all, there are more people who grow up in poverty who take advantage of opportunities to better themselves legally. When we close off opportunities, and limit opportunities mostly to the children of privilege, we create more hopelessness and desperation. This leads to more lawlessness and more violence in our society.
The point I'm making when referencing the Chillicothe killings is that we don't escape violence by living in a relatively homogeneous society. Nor, do we escape violence by living in a small town. For accuracy, I must point out that 1 of the killed or missing 6 young women in Chillicothe is African-American. Likes [mostly] kill likes. And we will never have a zero crime rate, no matter where we live or what we do. But we must do better than buying more guns and building more prisons. Remember...every impoverished person who becomes a productive citizen, not only helps him/herself, they help us all. Turning tax users into tax payers enhances all of our lives.
And, the next successful person might just save some children, as Dr. Ben Carson has done. Unlike his mother, you, Chicken Little, would have given Dr. Ben up as a lost cause. After all, he is African-American. He grew up poor in Detroit, and attended the Detroit Public Schools. He was surrounded by "thug" culture. Thank heaven for Dr. Ben's mother!! BTW -- I understand Dr. Ben's brother is a successful college graduate, too; an engineer by profession.

And...I'm still waiting for the invasion of "thug" culture in my integrated neighborhood. Come to think of it, yesterday, as I walked in my neighborhood, as I do almost every day, I did notice a teenager wearing a cap to the side, and slightly askew. He also had shorts slumping under a long t-shirt. He was clearly white, too. Funny. None of the African-Americans I've seen in my neighborhood dress this way. Hmmm...

Ok let's talk statistics.

In truth any racial community is more likely to be the victim of someone their own race. Because they live in a racial community.

However a white person is 25 times more likely to be victimized by a black person than a black person being victimized by another person.

The black community experiences 9 times more violence than any other race and the bulk of those are black on black crime.


defend himself. HE is the one who keeps stating that if likes would only live exclusively with likes, violence would dissipate greatly. I am merely pointing out that likes attack likes much more, statistically, than unlikes attack unlikes.
That is directed at Chicken Little's inane, segregationist position. Personally, I don't lump the two of you together on much, but if, Mikey, if you want to proclaim the same segregationist views as he has, I guess you may comfortably speak for Mr. Empty Glass on this issue.

Once again it is based in fact. If all races were segregated race on race crime should diminish and solely be internal to the race itself. Of course this would be in a society with no crossover which I don't think is realistic.


GZ aka Chicken Little stated that crime goes up the more the races mix. He was not talking about inter-racial crime only. He was talking about ALL CRIME. His contention is that a society segregated by race would be a less violent society. The implication is that people tend to be less violent around "their own kind." I am merely pointing out that, statistically, most violent crime victims are attacked by people of their own race.

If you believe that segregation by race is the answer to decreasing the rate of violent crime, Mikey, just say so. Then you can speak for the segregationists which would include not only Mr. Empty Glass, but also you, yourself, Mikey.

BTW -- Mikey and GZ aka Chicken Little...I'm still waiting in my integrated neighborhood for the "thug" mentality to start taking over.
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
Been waiting for over a decade now.
Still waiting...

"HE is the one who keeps stating that if likes would only live exclusively with likes, violence would dissipate greatly."

Dale, do you actually read the English that I write? I'm curious now.

Whites avoid Black incursions since Blacks bring despondency and crime to neighborhoods. That's all. And this is greatly supported by the statistics. Blacks are responsible for half of the violent crime in the nation. Naturally, getting away from them will allow you to avoid that sort of ghetto lifestyle. And anyone can look at Black neighborhoods and notice all the trash blowing around, all the unkempt lawns and yards, and all the degraded housing. "Black population" is synonymous with a neighborhood undergoing destruction.

We can hardly blame people for not wanting their neighborhood to collapse down into violent crime, property crime, blowing trash, unkempt appearance, and finally collapsing housing. And then there are all the fires. Black neighborhoods are very much subject to house-razing fires due to the way they live (using dangerous wiring and portable heaters) as well as the many instances of arson. To be blunt, middle-class Whites maintain their housing and don't burn down each other's houses and certainly don't set their own houses on fire for an insurance payout.

Segregation is totally natural. Whites and Blacks do it all the time... Whites doing it more defensively, not wanting the property destruction that assuredly follows a rise in Black population. But you Liberals don't approve... even when your own neighborhoods tend to be lily-white since you live in "Whitevilles" a.k.a. the suburbs and exurbs.

So here's a rational idea: Why don't you Liberals mind your own fucking business? I live in East Toledo; you Liberals obviously don't. You vocal leftie militants all seem to live in places like Sylvania and Maumee and Bedford Township... you know, where "it's Whiter" (to quote Jack Ford, whom you can't criticize for saying it since if you did, you'd be RACIST RACIST RACIST by your own farcical standards). You don't have to deal with the consequences of diversity. You can't possibly not know that diversity is ruinous since a diverse neighborhood in Toledo is a shithole almost without exception.

What you Liberals should be worrying about is the expansion of Section 8. It's coming to your Whitevilles. The government is very purposefully trying to push S8 out into rural areas. And where that happens, minorities appear, and where minorities appear, crime and despondency follow (for Blacks more than Hispanics, but still). Slowly but surely, the Whitevilles won't be safe, inasmuch as flighters define "safe".

BTW -- Still waiting for that "thug" culture to invade my neighborhood.
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
Been waiting for over a decade, now.
Still waiting...
Still waiting...

How does all of this venom explain the success of the Carson brothers? They were raised in the Detroit inner-city by a single mother who could not even read. One became a successful engineer; the other a world-renowned surgeon, who is a leading contender for the Republican nomination for POTUS. Don't hassle them too much, Mr. Empty Glass. They may revert to their "thug" culture on you. Have your gun at the ready! Hope they don't read the segregationist garbage you write here, for your sake. I wonder if Dr. Ben only operated on children of color? Would you let him put his hands on your child, Chicken Little? Hmmm...

Once again, GZ has his own opinion. He got it from facts and logic. Just because I come to a different conclusion does not mean his nor I opinion is not logical not fact based.

If you disagree with him so passionately then post facts to discredit his conclusion. Just don't try to paint me with a broad brush because I acknowledge his opinion is rooted in his reading of facts and statistics.


statistics over and over again? Most whites who are victims of violence are attacked by other whites. The statistics show this to be about 70%. Most African-Americans who are victims of violence are attacked by African-Americans. This is about 80%, statistically. If we further segregate, we will do nothing to lower the overall level of violence. What is a greater discrepancy is when we factor in gender. By far, most violence is done by males. Would we lower crime rates by segregating males from females? That makes as much sense as segregating by race to reduce crime.

And, the most significant fact -- which those who want to foment fear among us ignore -- is that the rate of violent crime today is about 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. The fear-mongers want us fallaciously to believe that we have more crime now than ever. Not even close to the truth! As Billy Joel sang, "The good old days weren't always good. Tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems."
GZ aka Chicken Little severely limits his use of facts. In fact, he hates facts, because most facts get in the way of his hard-core, irrational feelings. He, like most conservatives, is just so emotional!

And, it is also statistical that my integrated neighborhood has not suffered from any of what Mr. Empty Glass proclaims are always the negative results of African-Americans mixing into mostly white neighborhoods. We've been integrated for over a decade. Still waiting what Chicken Little describes as the inevitable invasion of the "thug" mentality which African-Americans cannot help but bring to any community into which they move.
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
Still waiting...

The statistics you quote don't discredit my statistics and thus they are valid.


have it both ways. If you find GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass's segregationist views to be rational, and based upon statistical evidence, you must believe that segregation by race is rational and will reduce crime. If you do not believe in segregation, you must find fault with Chicken Little's illogical logic.

I disagree. Rational people can look at the same data set and reach different conclusions. Just as how two people can look at the same painting and interpret it differently.


When I was in grade school I remember the teachers asked the students what they wanted to be when they grew up. Not once did I hear anyone of any race say they wanted to be a criminal. I heard them say they wanted to be doctors, lawyers, farmers, firemen, policemen, good parents, cooks, politicians , professional athletes. I went to school with two brothers who ended up being serial killers. It's strange, I never heard them say their ambition was to be serial killers.

Serial killers?

What are their names?


The Cook Brothers.

By your own definition it is whites who are serial killers. The Cooks are black. So we're you wrong then or now?


As usual, MikeyA you missed the whole point.

As usual you are avoiding direct questions.


I'm not avoiding anything. I'm just allowing you to have the opportunity to engage in some critical thinking. Are you capable of critical thinking, or are you some drone flying around being told what to do by the control master at HQ ?

Answer my question and I will answer yours.


Try this one on for size. A Black couple were denied admittance to a local buffet because the attendant said they were too fat and might eat too much. The attendant didn't tell the fat White people to leave.

Why not provide a source?

Plus by your own description it sounds like weight discrimination not race discrimination.


If it's weight discrimination why didn't the attendant deny admittance to the fat White people? And, I prove my point again. You can't understand what you read.

How can you discern that?

There is no source. Thus we have no knowledge about anyone else turned away any one else not turned away or if there was even anyone else there at the time. Meaning nothing you claim can be verified. This you are not verifiable.


Denial, denial denial. Why don't you prove it isn't true?

It can't be proven negative. You have not given enough information. Specifically the 5 W's.

A local buffet? What buffet? What was the date of this alleged occurrence? Was it covered by media? If so, who?

You have left this purposefully vague and now you argue that the lack of evidence against proves it's true. That follows no acceptable form of scientific logic.

Post details and then one can prove it or disprove it.

You are like a psychic saying that since I can't prove you are making things up that it must be true. Well that does not prove psychic powers nor does it prove your point.

BTW, I'm not denying anything. I took the information you provided and showed it was inconsistent with your conclusion. That just based on what you DID provide. Now if I'm wrong please post information showing I'm wrong. Don't just say I'm wrong.


As usual you have shown nothing except for refusal to accept reality. Incidents do not have to be memorialized by an Academy Award winning production to be true.

No I have refused to accept your word as gospel.

I am fully willing to concede that the incident may have taken place if you would provide details. What I have issue with is your description of the incident. You are a highly biased source. That you can't or won't provide any proof that this occurred shows its either not as you describe or completely made up. Btw mos Academy Award productions are incorrect as well since the director and actors take artistic license with the truth. Only a fool accepts it as factual.


Like I said before, you refuse to accept reality. Awful things happen everyday that are undocumented. By your definition, if it isn't documented it didn't happen. BTW, there are many things that are documented that are total lies.

No again I refuse to take your word on anything. You are highly biased and racist.

I agree there are things that go undocumented but you don't post even the most basic of details specifically the 5 W's. Who, What, Where, When, and Why. (One should even add How to that list but I digress).


If you don't accept what I'm telling you, it's still going to be true. BTW, who elected you the format police? There's that entitlement coming out again.

If you're not willing to post the basic details then people will be suspicious of you and your motivations. Expecting them not to is entitlement.

I am not the format police nor have I ever claimed to be such. However society deems the 5W's to be the MINIMUM standard of relaying an incident with credibility. You cannot or will not meet this standard and thus no one will think you to be credible. I am not entitled one bit because I took the information you gave-displayed it's inconsistency. It's you who insists to be taken seriously without treating everyone else seriously.


Give me your shrinks telephone number. I have recommendations to improve your therapy.

Another pedantic reply. Nothing that discredits anything I said snd this I will accept it as tacit approval that my argument is stronger.


Just as I have, you have provided, in most instances just your opinion. In other comments you have provided demented citations derived from skewed or misleading data. This is an innate characteristic of those who think they are entitled to support their oppressive stance.or superiority to people who are not like themselves. MikeyA, continuing to display your low self-esteem will not show you the way.

You say my data is skewed and misleading yet you provide nothing to show its skewed and you don't show where it's misleading.

You say I have low self esteem yet it's you who turns to personal attacks when I confront your claims.


The comments I make are not personal attacks. I'm just acquainting you with the help you need and offering you constructive critisism. I'm just being a friend.

Claiming I have low self esteem is a personal attack.

Because nothing I've posted indicates that because I am actually full of self esteem.


the rioting in the news link I am including here, must be manufactured using some great modern graphics technology, because it is an impossibility. You see, the rioting in this video, is "supposedly" done in Greece. It would be Greeks rioting against other Greeks for caving in to demands of the other Europeans (almost all of whom are native Europeans, or, according to GZ aka Chicken Little's skewed value system, are from the same race as the Greeks) who are agreeing to bail out Greece from the economic quagmire into which they, basically, placed themselves.
The reason that, according to Chicken Little, this is impossible, is because, almost everyone in Greece is Greek! And, according to the "Mr. Empty Glass Theory of Crime," when likes live with likes, there is little crime. How could there possibly be rioting?
Here is the link to the article which contains the video: http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/15/greek-crisis-mps-ba...
Now, look as I might, I could not find one African among all of those rioting! And, from the information I have found, over 94% of those living in Greece, are [this is stunning] Greek! There is a small Muslim population, mostly Turk, and a handful of Africans living there. I guess that segregation by race doesn't always bring peace. But, what do I know?

BTW -- Just today, I saw three children playing together two doors away from me. One of the children was African-American. They seemed to be happily playing, but, again, what do I know? Maybe when I wasn't looking, that African-American child was going all "thug" on those poor innocent non-minority children.
Still waiting for the "thug" mentality to take hold in my neighborhood.
Been waiting over a decade, now.
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
No riots, either. (What a boring neighborhood this is!)
Still waiting...
Still waiting...

There is rioting because the Greeks are learning the harsh realities of liberal Socialism cannot be sustained naturally on a large populace without a large prosperous nationalized industry.


I'm looking for the 5 w's.

You should be asking Dale since he presented it.



I guess ZC we'll still have to keep waiting on the 5W's won't we.


your analysis has some basis is factual reality. I am pointing out the badly flawed analysis of GZ aka Chicken Little.

To me, the reality is that the Greeks are facing is that in a mixed economy, one must be prepared to work for most of his/her adult life. Personally, I worked for 50 years before I retired. Many Greeks don't even work until they're 50 years old! Americans, generally, work hard, compared to those in most other industrialized economies. Americans, generally, work more hours per week than most, and work more years before retiring than most. THAT is what works. Right now, many of those in Greece want to work little, and retire off of the harder working folks in most of the Northern European countries. And, on top of that, the Greeks want to blame those who are willing to bail them out, when all they really want is for the Greeks to pull their own weight.

I always told my students that education was all about getting the credentials one needs to get a job one can enjoy doing for which they are remunerated well enough to pay their bills and live a decent life. Too many Greeks seem to want others to work hard, so that they (the Greeks) can not work too any hours, or too many years, and then retire! Most of those in Germany do not act this way. Most in Finland, and Sweden, and Norway, and Denmark do not. And they, like the Greeks, have a lot more Socialism in their mixed economies than we have. The system is not the problem, The attitude of too many of the Greek people IS the problem.

BTW -- Maybe it's because of my personal experiences that I take almost the exact opposite approach to immigration than does The Donald. For example, I do know quite a few Greek-Americans, some very well. All of those Greek immigrants, and second generation Greeks I know work their tails off! This is true of other immigrants, including all of the Mexican-Americans I know personally. From my experiences, as a common working person, NOT as a real estate mogul, most of the immigrants who come to America from all other countries, come here to work hard and live the "American Dream." They send their children to school. They push their children hard. And most of their children get a good education and become productive Americans. Some do commit crimes. However, from what I have read, immigrants, generally, have a lower percentage of criminals than do those born in this country.
This is the exact opposite of what The Donald stated. He stated that the Mexican government purposely sends the worst of their citizens to the United States, and that most of them are drug dealers and rapists. As the Donald said, "Some may be good people." SOME??? From where does The Donald get his statistics? From his billionaire cronies? From the extreme, intolerant, far-right xenophobes? He takes one murder and makes it seem as though we can't trust anyone whose roots are from Mexico.
The Donald may try to spin this anyway he wants, but the bottom line [I know The Donald understands the term "bottom line"] is that his statement was a purposely bigoted statement meant to appeal to the worst fears harbored by those who are likely to vote in Republican primaries, and/or go to Republican Presidential caucuses. The Donald is either an openly racist pig, or a crass politician appealing to the worst emotions within us.

I agree with you about the Greek crisis.

On Donald I believe he was specifically speaking about illegal immigrants not legal immigrants.

I personally have no issue with legal immigrants and think they are and have been important to this country and illegal immigration keeps legal immigrants from being able to immigrate.

Our immigration system needs revamping and needs to be more open.


Americans don't know how to retire, on average. They run up lifelong debts which tend to remain serviceable at their time of retirement, most notably the house and credit cards. They live expensive lifestyles which tend to have fairly heavy monthly costs, which is 'overhead'. More than ever, Americans are finding themselves "unable to retire" since they can't service their debts and monthly expenses on the fall in income they'd get once retired. (Note that the parasite class of public-school teachers have no such problems, since they got Golden Class retirements that pay handsomely, at huge public and municipality-breaking expense, allowing them to remain in the same expensive condition of their unearned lifestyles.)

But those debts and expenses just aren't mandatory. They're voluntary. They're only prevalent due to the pervasive nature of American stupidity and entitlement.

"I always told my students that education was all about getting the credentials one needs to get a job one can enjoy doing for which they are remunerated well enough to pay their bills and live a decent life."

Nope. You were only a dealer, telling your victims to become addicted and keep hittin' that crack pipe, so that your class of parasite could remain well fed while they suffered. Institutional education wasn't necessary for most of the public. This became doubly true given the rise of the Internet. When I was growing up in the 1970s, I could only have imagined a World Library that was at my whim and fingertips at home, even available in certain "wireless" zones with a cheap information appliance (now called laptops, tablets and smartphones). So you'd think that with a World Library (i.e. Internet) that the need for institutional education would have decreased. No, the opposite happened, since it's not a true need. The employers got the upper hand, and a voracious, salivating class of predators and parasites called "bankers" and "teachers" needed victims to feed off of.

I can't wait for your response to this one, pusher.

GZ -- You are truly a Mr. Empty Glass. It is so sad that my working for 50 years, and living a modest life style so that I could retire, is seen by you as something to attack! I am NOT going to apologize for working hard. I am NOT going to apologize for not getting divorced, (a very costly endeavor). I am NOT going to apologize for living in the same home for over 40 years, and NOT having a mortgage that is sinking us. (In fact, we paid off our mortgage in 20 years.) I am NOT going to apologize for paying for both of our children's education, so that they could graduate debt free. I am NOT going to apologize for the fact that they and their spouses are all gainfully employed and are taxpayers, not tax users. Maybe those college educations were not the waste that you imply them to be, Chicken Little. I have yet to meet the former student of mine, (and I do see many of them) who has a college education and complains that they are over-educated because of it. If, in your mind, education is crack, you'd better start smokin' it!

Once again, you write of my being a part of some "Golden Class." What garbage! Willard and his wife, in the one year of tax returns he would make public, paid a lower percentage on their total income than my wife and I paid on income that was a tiny fraction of theirs. When writing of a "Golden Class," you, once again and as usual, are far off the mark!

It is fascinating to me that you, on one hand, laud the ability of people to get information in this modern age without a formal education so that they can become successful, while on the other hand, you complain about your own lack of monetary security. Are the credentials you need to get a good job too difficult for you to attain? Or are you permanently in this mode of underachieving and blaming others for your lack of success in your own eyes?
Looking forward to your answer!

Good Job, Dale. Go get him. I wish I were as diplomatic as you. I don't view GZ as Mr. Empty Glass. Let's face it, he's a buffoon.

Why are you asking me Dale? Ask GZ.

If you want his facts and statistics he has shown he will provide them.

Should I start asking you for the 5W's in ZC's posts since he refuses to provide him and is willfullh dishonest?


you do use facts as a basis for your opinions. An overwhelming amount of the time, GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass, uses opinions only, even denying actual facts. And, I am merely pointing out that this is yet another one of those times.
With Chicken Little it's, almost always, no facts, no credentials, no practical experiences, nothing but his vacuous opinions. It just floors me that someone like you will so often defend his unsubstantiated beliefs! You have even made the choice, at times, to speak for him.
Just because the two of you share a lot of the same political positions, does not mean that I evaluate your opinions as being equal. But, you, Mikey, seem to do so. I find this to be incredible, that's all.

As far as my own opinions are concerned, I almost always base my opinions upon factual evidence, not merely personal "gut" feelings. If you want the "5 Ws," I can provide them, because, like your posts, my posts have a factual base.

Even on those issues where we agree we come to the similar conclusions from often different approaches and logical thinking.

Facts can be either interpreted differently or taken from different angles as well.

I don't really believe you should be responsible for ZC's posts. You don't really know what's in his head. That was just an example I used.

On me, my opinions can and do change. That is why I'm not afraid to defend my position nor am I afraid to post the facts and my reasoning. If I don't think I've put enough thought into an issue I usually refrain from commenting. Recent example is yours and ZCs comments on Trump. I really didn't think he would jump into the race and I admittedly ignored his comments on the race. Now that he's in I am evaluating what he's saying. I can say I've seen nothing to cause me to throw my support behind him.

EDIT: I did want to say I have respect for your opinion as well. I think we both recognize that.


Mutual respect. Respectful disagreement. And areas of agreement, too!

If you gave out a survey to every American, and then ensured that most people responded to the survey, then you'd find that the following question would result in at least 98% to 99.5% of the respondents saying "no" to the following line of questioning.

"Our tax system applies a higher tax rate to the rich; hence, objectively speaking, are you one of the rich?"

The reason for that absurdity is that Liberals or Conservatives alike, we all know our tax system and government are PREDATORY. We like to sicc our government in general and tax agencies in particular on people we don't like, but we greatly fear being targeted ourselves. We're a bunch of fuckers that way, sadly.

As a result, it's a marked social trend in our nation for the rich people (roughly the top 8 to 10 percent of society, about 1 person in 10, to 1 person in 12) to quite simply deny that they're rich. Instead of acknowledging they're rich, when forced to answer, they often (and loudly) claim they're "just like everybody else", and (note well) they point unerringly to the next class of rich people right above them or maybe the next step above that. In practice, this means the Golden Class (the top 10%, which you're a part of, Dale) tends to point to the 1%, and then the 1% points to the 0.1%, etc.

All of this is a purely defensive process, but it's intellectually bankrupt. It relies on propaganda and outright lying.

I specifically named the Golden Class to illustrate the point that it is not part of the middle class anymore. It's also historically irrepeatable. We can't create such a large privileged class like that ever again. It's a byproduct of a petroleum-fueled society that was recovering from WWII and was able to expand the Western economic base in an unprecedented fashion. One thing that came of it, which is inarguable, was the creation of a true world-conquering empire, the United States of America. And the singular and obvious arm of that conquering was the US Navy. The US Navy (which at present as a wealth base probably matches the combined GDPs of the bottom 1/4 of the world's nations) controls all the world's oceans, hence controls all the world's oceanic commerce, which is to say, almost all of international commerce itself. Controlling all the world's oceans and therefore most of the world's international commerce, the USA finally achieved what every empire dreams of doing: Conquering the world.

This feat of world conquering can't be repeated. Ever. It's impossible to repeat since it was powered by petroleum. Even in the days of coal-powered navies, one sole navy was unable to control all the world's oceans. The transfer to petroleum was a massive increase in industrialization, and that allowed the USA to invest in a worldwide navy, and then it added nuclear ability to that navy for both weapons and propulsion. Without the input of cheap, dense and practical energy, such a navy can't ever be created again. And in fact, we've arguably already bankrupted ourselves just to maintain that navy at present. As petroleum production matures into a long decline (as is only obvious from the exploitation curves of any resource), such a navy can't be maintained. It must also fall into decline. Hence more and more of the world's oceans will fall outside the control of the USA, and into the hands of other navies and concomitant merchant marines.

So that dictates the collapse of our Golden Class... all the police, teachers, factory workers and so on, who fed long and deeply at the trough of retirement systems that could not continue supplying the large-living lifestyles that they unwisely promised. Our Golden Class is pretty much marked for death. And it deserves to die. Economically and culturally speaking it should never have existed in such a grossly inflated form. We should have never issued open-ended ("defined benefit") retirement plans. We should have never guaranteed near-infinite health care for millions of people, particularly those with bad eating habits and a propensity for indulgence in drugs and alcohol.

In other words, Dale, I never want to hear you again point to guys like "Willard" in some sophomoric attempt to deflect from your own guilt. Or you'll catch it twice as hard.

Mr. Empty Glass.
My top salary was $63,000 as a teacher. With my union earnings, I was around $70,000. The median income in 2011 was $50,502. The mean income was $69,821. So, I earned about the mean average and a little more than the median, while working two jobs! Even with your minimal formal education, and from what you could learn on-line, you should be able to understand that earning about the mean income and about 10% more than the median income would not place ANYONE in a "Golden Class."
BTW -- According to this same article, the top 10% of income earners started at over $143,000!
BTW -- My first year of teaching, when I was the only one working outside the home, if our son, who was a baby at the time, had been in school, he would have qualified for a government subsidized reduced price lunch.
I know...I did it again, Chicken Little. I am using facts to refute your gut feelings. So sorry! And, since I retired as of June 30, 2011, my gross income is closer to $50,000 less payments for the insurance for medical, dental, and eye glasses coverage. As I said before, some "Golden Class," huh!
Here's the article: http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-do-americans-earn-what-is-the-averag...

In other words, GZ, I never want you to again state erroneously, that I am part of some "Golden Class" which you have conjured up in the deepest recesses of your delusional mind, when my current income compares very closely with that of the median, average American.
And I will continue to point out that we do have a true "Golden Class" in America of super-rich people! Go on! Criticize me for this. I DON'T CARE!!

FYI -- Careful! Here's more factual information, not gut feelings, Chicken Little! I hope you can understand this, given your limited formal education, and your seeming unwillingness to use the internet to enlighten yourself with knowledge. When Ronald Reagan convinced Congress to cut the marginal rate of taxes in half in the 1980s, he stated that it would NOT be necessary to have a separate -- and lower -- rate of taxation for capital gains earned on investments. Reagan always resented the fact that nearly all of the income he earned as an actor was taxed at the full income tax rates, while his wealthy friends, who invested most of their money, paid half of that rate. This was the law for 20 years! Then W came along. He convinced Congress to slash the capital gains rate, and the rate on some special, "qualified," dividends, to 15%. (That rate is now 20%. And you could hear the screams from here when it was raised to 20% from 15%!!) Those who work for their income pay the full income tax rate, some as high as 39.6%! Since Willard, and other members of the true American "Golden Class," earn much of their income from capital gains, that's why Willard and his wife paid a lower percentage of their total income in federal income taxes than my wife and I did, on a tiny fraction of their income. That's why, as Warren Buffet pointed out, he pays a lower percentage of his gross income in income taxes than does his secretary! The difference between Willard and Warren? Warren wants the lower rate on investments ended, or put back to where it was under Ronald Reagan. Willard likes it just the way it is!

Finally, I repeat...GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass, you're so full of resentment! To me, you seem to be very bright, but undereducated, either in a formal sense or from information "at your fingertips" on the internet. Instead of wasting so much time criticizing those who have more, why don't you get the credentials to qualify yourself for a position which would offer you better remuneration?
Seesh! You get so emotional over all of this. You conservatives are just so emotional!!

I love this. I hand you rope, and you dutifully hang yourself with it.

"The median income in 2011 was $50,502."

Yes, the median HOUSEHOLD income for the nation was about that much. Note that households are composed of about 2.4 people. So you 'earned' (i.e. stole from the taxpayers) about 40% more than what the national median household was earning. But the nation is richer on average than Toledo... a city where one person in four lives in what's the federal definition of poverty.


The median household income for Toledo was much lower than the national number: About $33K (2009-2013). So for Toledo, you 'earned' (i.e. stole from the taxpayers) about 110% more than what the metro median household was earning.

Individual income for Toledo is a very difficult statistic to find, so we'll eyeball per-capita income instead: $24K. You 'earned' (i.e. stole) 190% more than that.

And then you 'retired' into a system of defined benefits, which are just costing us all far too much money. That makes you the Golden Class. Your retirement plan puts you into the top 20% of the nation by wealth base, perhaps the top 15%.

I warned you that continued distractions from your privileged position would end up with your catching it even harder. Want to keep going, Golden Boy? Dance the hempen jig since it amuses me.

Another situation under suspicion. Black women aren't safe either. A black woman gets pulled over in Texas for failure to use a turning signal while changing lanes and ends up getting arrested and ends up dead? What's more appalling authorities say the woman committed suicide over the incident? If she would have ran away maybe she would have been shot in the back five times.Sounds like the Olde South has raised it's ugly head again.

I quoted my HIGHEST year's salary. The average Toledo teacher made little more than the median income you quote.
I started at $9000, in 1976. The next year I went up to a whopping $9100! A male colleague of mine with two children qualified for food stamps. At that time, if our son had been school aged, he would have qualified for a reduced-priced lunch! And, inflation in those years was in double digits. Some "Golden Class!"

You seem to be intelligent, but you are so obviously undereducated, Chicken Little! This leads you to erroneous analyses. For example, when comparing average incomes, if one uses the community as you would seem to favor, the teachers in Ottawa Hills should earn something like twice as much as Toledo teachers should. It is already difficult for city school districts to compete for the best graduating teachers with some pay differential as it is. If we would use your criteria, ALL the students in ALL the poorer school districts would be doomed to being taught primarily by teachers, the best of whom would leave as soon as they could get a job in a district with a higher average income, meaning higher teacher incomes as well. Duh!

ALL teachers in traditional public schools must have college degrees and continuing inservice education. The only sense it makes to pay teachers based upon the median income of the school district in which they teach, is NONSENSE!

I state once again, GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass, you have no idea what a "Golden Class" is!
And, I'll state once again, you are just SO BITTER...and SO EMOTIONAL!!
Get credentialed so that you qualify for better remuneration. Maybe you won't be so bitter. And maybe you'll learn how to better analyze data. One learns that kind of thing in college classes!

Try the top 1% of earners. As of 2011, they earn 1/4 of all of the earned income each year, and control 40% of the nation's wealth. That compares to corresponding figures of 12% and 33% 25 years earlier.
Here's an article written with much more detail about this true "Golden Class."
Read, Chicken Little. Learn about a true "Golden Class!" Sheesh!!

Distracting from the argument.

If we take GZ's median income number as fact then lowest paid TPS administrators make over 48% more than the average Toledoan. The median pay for teacher is over 18% than the average Toledoan.

Seems to me working for TPS is a golden ticket per the facts.




Of course teachers should make more than a burger flipper at Burger King.


And you continue to make excuses for his faulty, fallacious comparisons!

I have already stated how ridiculous it is to base a teacher's salary on the average income of the school district in which that teacher works. You, Mikey, double-down on that outrageous notion by regurgitating figures and continuing to compare median incomes in Toledo, to the incomes of college graduates who teach. Talk about your "apples and oranges" comparisons!
The median income in Ottawa Hills is $112,293.00 per year. Here's a link to that information: http://ohio.hometownlocator.com/counties/subdivisions/data,n,village%20o...
Should their teachers be paid according to THAT median income? And should Toledo's teachers be paid one quarter of that, since the average Toledoan makes so much less?
But, let's go really wild. The mean family income in Sausalito, California, a tony suburb of San Francisco, is $165.489.00. http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Sausalito-California.html
WOW!! Those teachers should earn a WHOLE LOT more than those in Toledo, and quite a bit more than even those in Ottawa Hills!

But, to add to the statistical battle, let's look at teacher salaries compared to those in other professions requiring a baccalaureate college degree. Of the 129 professions listed on this site, elementary teachers rank 128th! http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/majors-that-pay-you-back?
Yet, the requirements to teach, and the continuing education required by law to remain licensed to teach, mostly at the teacher's personal expense, keep getting more difficult and expensive to attain.

Mikey, as I stated, we have a true "Golden Class" in America. It is the top 1% who make 1/4 of the total income earned in this country and control 40% of the nation's wealth!

Mikey. Are you bitter, too? Oh, wait! You can't be! Aren't you part of GZ aka Chicken Little's "Golden Class," too? Don't you earn total remuneration each year MUCH HIGHER than the average Toledoan? Can't you get lifetime benefits and get a full retirement pension and benefits after working for only 20 years -- all at taxpayer expense?

Dale, I believe people should be paid their worth. If Ottawa Hills wants better teachers they will need to pay them as such... and as such those taxpayers should get results.

TPS has been failing the students for years. There has been no significant improvement. Thus they are overpaid even for a city that to use ZC's terminology is filled with burger flippers.

The 1% don't live in Toledo. In fact, I don't think there's a one who even lives in Ohio.

Now as GZ has noted why don't you argue the numbers and not the passion? What he posted holds weight.


that we should have a permanent underclass of those who live in the poorer parts of our nation, and a permanent overclass among those in the wealthiest areas of our nation. So, those children who already live in privileged situations get more help in schools, and those who have less advantages, get less help in school. That's nice!

Just note...except for the Seychelles, we already have the highest proportion of people in prisons -- about 700 adults for every 100,000 people -- of any nation in the world! Here's a link: http://www.statista.com/statistics/262962/countries-with-the-most-prison...
Remember, it costs far less to educate than it does to adjudicate and incarcerate. And you two so-called conservatives want us, the taxpayers, to just pay, and pay, and pay.

It's amusing to see that after I post solid numbers, and you post a response peppered with exclamation points (ten of them; I counted) and capital letters, that you insist that I'm the emotional one here.

You command the same logical faculties as does the average mental retard (or unionized laborer). No wonder our public school system produces a long line of singularly inept citizens, given your example.

The fact of the matter is that Toledo is only growing poorer, and so its public services must follow. Toledo can't afford to keep paying teachers what it does. It's an economic aberration.

For the last year that I studied (2006), the average TPS teacher starting salary (remember: It's for a "nine months" of work, too... not even counting all the time off during that period) was about $32K, meaning TPS teachers were given about the same income to start as the median household in the city. The average of all TPS teachers was about $48K. And the upper tier was in the $60Ks.

Upon checking now, it seems my numbers are still fairly accurate:


Starting (B.A.): $34427
Top (B.A.): $60259

Dale, Toledo can't afford the services your class of person offers, and that goes double when you realize how fundamentally substandard those services really are. TPS is greatly underperforming. As a base, every student that's not classified as a "special needs" child (i.e. a mental retard) should emerge from the TPS being able to read, write and perform basic arithmetic. Every student. It's been our failure as a culture to let you unionized weenies get away with horrible quality of your work production; we've permitted you to poison the electorate and citizen base. I know that only serves your direct selfish interest, since a dumb electorate is highly likely to support Liberalism and Socialism and Unionism and outright Communism... there not being a thin dime's worth of difference between those in how we exercise our culture in Toledo.

If you continue to compare the salary of a college graduate to the general public in an urban area, you will always get the statistics which support your "apples to oranges" views. It is irrational, but, then irrational goes with most of your analyses, Chicken Little. In GZ's world, we give up on every child in every urban area. We give them inferior everything and give them no hope for a better future. We, simply, build more prisons!
That's a world just made for Mr. Empty Glass. EMPTY!!
And we, as taxpayers, pay and pay and pay. Remember the average amount of money spent annually per pupil in traditional public schools is about $11,000 in Ohio. http://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/classroom-resources/public-educati...
The average annual expenditure per prisoner in Ohio is about $25,000. http://www.vera.org/files/price-of-prisons-ohio-fact-sheet.pdf
And this additional cost for incarceration does not take into consideration the costs to the public of the damage done to them by the children you discount, who become criminals instead of productive citizens. Yes, Chicken Little. Such a scenario fits perfectly into your depressing world view.
And, if we continue to spend more on incarcerations, we have even less money to spend on traditional public education. This means that the children of privilege will have even greater opportunities to stay on top of their peers for generations to come.
And, people like you, GZ aka Mr. Empty Glass, will continue to whine about how tough it is to make a living while the super-rich, a true "Golden Class," sucks up all of the most desirable resources within our society.
Wah, wah, wah!

Funny that you should mention prisons: Our public schools are just pipelines for our prisons, by the way you faux teachers keep churning out anti-citizens from them.

You won't take responsibility for your work product. You just blame everyone else. No wonder teachers are overwhelmingly Liberal; dodging blame and pointing fingers like some little kid, is what Liberals DO.

It's shameful and disgusting that you blame-dodgers hold college degrees while producing such crap. Your pay needs to drop by any sane quality standard.

Whine, whine, whine. That's all conservatives like you do. I discredit your "solution" of building more prisons, so you turn to a personal attack.
That's OK. I can take it.

I get the warm fuzzies evry time I read one of your posts, GZ.

It all boils down to this. Many so-called Christian White men in this country want women and minorities to be totally subordinate to them like it was was in the Olde South. If women and minorities show any competence, creativity, innovation, or free will they display attitudes like GZ and MikeyA or worse. They justify their attitudes by pointing out the problems with some minorities and women and use a wide paint brush to identify all of them. Out of the hundreds of people I know only a few have committed any type of crime.

What exactly is my attitude?


Un-Deserved Entitlement.

What exactly do I feel I'm entitled to?

Follow up: If I feel entitled to it how is it undeserved?




It's not an undeserved entitlement when you work and pay taxes. The undeserved entitlement comes when you sit around and collect welfare all your life and somehow (and insanely) expect that you have the same citizenship rights as the productive class. In other words, it's insane to structure a society where the takers have the same rights as the makers.

Do a full day's work and then come back to me and make the same claims, Zeyad. From your postings here, it's unlikely that you're a member of the productive class. In fact, strong alignment with militant Liberalism is a prime indicator that you're a member of the welfare class. At best, you're a member of the consumer class, and that means you exhibit no fiscal discipline, which explains your deep desires to steal wealth from the rest of society in order to have all that stuff you see on your often-used television set.

Thank you for again revealing to us all that you are a mentalist. You are correct in your assessment. I am a taker. After 50 years of paying Social Security Taxes, I receive Social Security Retirement Benefits.How does shoe leather taste?

And, have you noticed how emotional he gets about his inane beliefs? Conservative ideologues are just so emotional!

It's not surprising at all that Chicken Little accuses you of being a, "member of the welfare class." Mr. Empty Glass assumes that you, "exhibit no fiscal discipline," and that you have, "all that stuff you see on your often-used television set." It's all part and parcel of his bitterness and is why he reinforces his aka as Mr. Empty Glass. Oh, woe is he!

Most frequently, Chicken Little posts his vacuous opinions, without ANY corroboration. He has no facts. He has no educational or practical expertise. He jumps to conclusions about anyone with whom he disagrees, based upon his skewed views of the world which he reinforces with dubious -- often archaic -- sources of opinions. Once in a blue moon, he refers to an actual fact.

ZC -- I thank you for your lifetime -- 50 years -- of work. You have well earned the right to receive "benefits" from the program you supported for all of those years! After Chicken Little reaches that many years of work, let's see if he still resents the hard work people like you did?

Instructions for Mr. Empty Glass -- Open mouth; insert foot; chew.

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