A must read for Toledo taxpayers and Twila

Tagged:  

No levy until a performance audit is done. http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2012/05/tps-should-do-performance-a...

No votes yet

Excellent idea.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

I agree!

TPS should want a performance audit before asking for more money. It won't just identify ways to save money, it will show options for improving the effectiveness of their educational goals - after all, it is 'for the children.'

It will also give them an unbiased and objective justification for any funds they may need to seek. Their levy will have a much higher chance of passage if they can first show the voters that they've sought and implemented cost savings and efficiency improvements.

Great thoughts. If you look at this levy request as a business request for additional funding, in the business world, you'd NEVER see any extra $$ without an analysis of some kind.

But if you remember, this point was brought up by a few folks last time and was poo poo'd by the board. After which their levy got a loud 'thanks but no thanks' from the public. I guess they figure 'because I said so' is a valid reason.

Performance audit? I'm still waiting for the TPS to fully obey the No Child Left Behind Act. The TPS only seemed to implement it when they wanted to take revenge on some teachers in that school-swap about a year or two ago, when the TPS got dinged to pay off on their delayed-compensation program.

The NCLB Act seemed to specify that schools like Pickett Elementary would eventually be fixed, and by "fixed" I mean all the teachers fired (and replaced by new teachers). Have all the teachers in Pickett been fired? Nope. Does Pickett still suck the maximum amount of ass? Yep. So why is it still going? Why isn't Kasich doing anything about it? (I knew Strickland wouldn't, since he was just a whore for the teachers' unions.)

Hence my conclusion. The TPS keeps posting horrible results for many of its schools, year after year after year, and yet the teacher and administrator unions are still going strong. The same people keep working there, clear failures in their jobs. And, get this: That 'Dale Percheck' character posting here doesn't understand why I call the system Communist. {shakes head}

The problem is systemic. No one from the top down wants to improve the process and thus they resent change. Dale believes adding social workers will improve it. While that "solution" won't work for obvious reasons it does speak the root cause problem of TPS.

There is not one person I know with a teaching degree who felt that they would get paid a lot, nor did they believe they'd have a lot of benefits. What they did think was that the value they would get by teaching a student would be enough to supplement the lack of compensation. However the students don't value the education because the parents don't, the administration doesn't value the education because it's evident by their lack of attempts to make positive changes to the system, the voters don't feel the education is of value evidenced by the failures of the levies. And thus good teachers leave.

Now one cannot change the parents view, which was what Dale's solution was an attempt to do. However, the administration and the voters view can be changed and they are not mutually exclusive. However, both the voters and the administration have shown an unwillingness to change. Until a change is made by one or the other TPS will continue along a sinking path of idiocy.

MikeyA

In fact, I hate Communism!

Can't you simpy admit that you have no idea what Communism really is and that you use the term Communist as a label for anyone with whom you disagree?

In fact, I hate Communism!

No, you don't. In fact you love communism, or at least you should. Communism is the reason you retired comfortably, got every summer off and didn't really have to produce anything except paperwork during your entire adult career.

Of course, since you were employed by the TPS system, you might not know what communism really is unless it's labeled for you. Something on the order of:

This Is Communism! Bad! Bad!

But maybe not.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

For a guy who claims he hates Communism, you sure as heck loved to be in a Communist system (the Toledo Public School system), and you still benefit from that directly (pension and health care), and as well you continue to advocate for more of the same on almost every topic involving a choice between individual liberties, limited government and capitalism and your beloved bloated government system that rules all.

Communists, Socialists and Unionists: They are one and the same for how they do things (to us) in the United States. And you're one of them, Dale.

sending our 3 beautiful children to parochial schools !

What we could have done with that amount of money boggles my mind....

Fred, I don't know why you expected Twyla to read this. She's so busy with reading her magazines and family members and watching CNN. I mean when she doesn't even have the time to make sure what she writes is correct I don't know how you'd expect her to read posts.

I do find it very funny that she's been suspiciously absent. She must have retreated back to facebook land where no one disagrees with her.

MikeyA

The Blade is doing a series of articles about the Cincinnati Public Schools and the progress that has been made there. The main reason is because Cincinnati is home to a few of the nation's largest corporations, and they decided that it was in their best interests to be located where there is a better urban school district. So these business people are stepping up with significant dollars and have helped the district to make every CPS school a neighborhood resource center. It only makes sense that if a higher percentage of students have basic dietary and medical needs properly met, they will be better learners. And programs like those in CPS have worked well elsewhere, too.

Now, we can play the blame game all we want. Toledoans have taken the blame game to an entirely new level. We're great at it!! And there's plenty of blame to go around. The bottom line is that education is not an expenditure, it is an investment. It is not productive to merely throw more money at the problems, but when viable solutions are working elsewhere, it is common sense to adapt those programs for use in TPS.

All of our children and grandchildren are going to have to share this planet with everyone else's children and grandchildren. Isn't it plain, common sense to do more to ensure that each of our children has a real opportunity to get the most each one can out of school, so that we will have more contributors to a better society and less who weigh us down? The old axiom is true: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Invest more in the education of our youth, and we spend less on remedial education and/or incarceration of this same population cohort as older children and adults!

Dale, I agree with all you said.

There is something you need to realize, an investment that does not give you a return equal to what is invested is a bad investment. We cannot make or legislate families to care. When we make companies invest in schools, not of their own will, it will not bring the same returns as when they do it willingly as you cite.

We can affect only that we can an affect on.

Likewise so much of the TPS system and the educational system has been resistant to change when every other industry has accepted standardization. As Henry Ford once said "If you think of standardization as the best that you know today, but which is to be improved tomorrow; you get somewhere." It's no different than what we're seeing here with the performance audit. A failure to recognize the problem doesn't mean it does not exist. Toledo voters know it exists and that has led to a failure of levy's in a town that is normally very levy friendly.

Not conducting a performance audit does nothing to show the voters that TPS is being a good steward of the taxpayer's money and thus I predict the levy will fail.

MikeyA

Firstly, we "play the blame game" since we have to first identify what's wrong. But the people who are the source of the problems, won't get out of power. The "blame game" is us trying to point this out to Toledoans to get them over their ennui on the topic.

"The bottom line is that education is not an expenditure, it is an investment."

Not in Toledo. It's money thrown away. And the kicker is that we are just about the most expensive school system in the state on a per-capita basis.

You're only taking the "investment" angle to keep fooling people into accepting this huge waste of money.

"It is not productive to merely throw more money at the problems, but when viable solutions are working elsewhere, it is common sense to adapt those programs for use in TPS."

If you'd stop talking long enough to listen, you'd see that TPS people keep pushing the idea that the TPS is itself the MODEL for other school systems. What do they call it? The "Toledo Plan"? So what you propose (even if sensible) can't be done. TPS weenies believe in EXPORTING their (failed) model, not in IMPORTING anything else (except money).

They are doing a few things that will improve the schools and taxpayers.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120407/NEWS/303260174/Assistant-pri...

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20120418/NEWS/304180091/CPS-cuts-10-percent-teaching-staff?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|communities|s

Instead of voting on a new levy if TPS really does want more money why don't they try new ways to find it instead of the taxpayer dime.

Chris Myers, owner of this site, has outlined how several other school districts throughout the country have found creative methods to offset taxpayer funding and expand the budget.

Why does it always have to be a levy?

For a place that employs a lot of "smart" people they really don't seem that iniative/creative at all.

MikeyA

Under current state law, local school districts are greatly restricted as to how they can raise significant funds for operations. In addition, the State of Ohio ignored Ohio Supreme Court orders to properly reform public school funding in this state. Then the legislature siphoned hundreds of millions of dollars away from traditional public schools and poured it into the sinkhole of failure where we find a disproportionate number of the charter schools in this state. The significant decrease in state and local funding to TPS has created a mess every year for the past decade or more. From one year to the next, few teachers know where they're going to teach or what grade level or which subject or subjects they're going to teach. Nevertheless, they are under enormous pressure to keep raising test scores!

I never stated that private businesses should be forced to give money to TPS. While I know that we have a less viable corporate environment here than they have in Cincinnati, I hope that local business people will see it in their best interests to help in the education of Toledo's youth. It is in all of our best interests to do so.

I am concerned with the intransigence of many TPS administrators. When TFT created an innovative program which would have brought social services in to help at Pickett School, and expand that program to other schools if it proved to be successful, the administrators union, the Toledo Association of Administrative Personnel (TAAP) objected and killed it.

BTW...TPS has had many successful initiatives. Most of these have come at the initiative of The Toledo Federation of Teachers (TFT). Many were opposed by TAAP. Among them are: Toledo Technology Academy, Grove Patterson Academy, Old West End Academy, elementary Reading Academy, elementary Math Academy, the Toledo Plan wherein the teachers' union participates in firing poor teachers. That's just off the top of my head.

"Under current state law, local school districts are greatly restricted as to how they can raise significant funds for operations. In addition, the State of Ohio ignored Ohio Supreme Court orders to properly reform public school funding in this state." I am familiar with the ruling and in fact the Ohio SC ruled that the laws reguarding funding were unconstitutional. Thus I don't think any lawsuit against TPS if it were to go against a state law, already found to be unconstitutional, would be found with merit. So there is an opportunity for the system to try to offset funding through nontraditional sources.

"When TFT created an innovative program which would have brought social services in to help at Pickett School, and expand that program to other schools if it proved to be successful, the administrators union, the Toledo Association of Administrative Personnel (TAAP) objected and killed it." While I disagree that social services is a solution because it treats a symptom and does not stop the root cause this annecdote is just an example of the stupidity of Toledo and TPS.

The voters of Toledo could affect TPS positively but it would require a change of administrators who could then change the way the system works. Instead the voters have voted in the same people time and time again and are shocked that nothing has changed.

It's no different than Toledo and Lucas County positions. The voters have voted in the same people over and over and when they retire they vote in their kids and are shocked that nothing in the city has changed. Toledo has a lot of systemic problems and the root cause is the people voted in.

MikeyA

"Why does it always have to be a levy?"

Because those corrupt Democrat officials know how it works in Toledo to get easy money: A levy. All you need is to get over a little resistance, and then you get a levy enacted with a tiny advantage in votes, and after that, each time it's up for renewal, you can just claim "NOT A NEW TAX". Then it sails into endless renewals without any effort at all, really.

That's how we're being taxed to death as workers and citizens.

The State of Ohio should take over TPS. From the outside TPS appears to be a bunch of White teachers destroying the future of minority children.

Maybe, the unionized indoctrinators of liberalism gone amok ,who vote overwhelmingly for the D's, haven't gotten the word on how minorities vote 96%, for the D's , also ?!

Certainly, a plot by the founders of the K.K.K., to obfuscate reality ...

It looks the same from the inside. Time to go on a hunger strike.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

The Ohio General Assembly and the conservatives who have dominated there since 1990, have found a way to prevent reforms in TPS from working. They created a parallel system of publicly funded schools. About half of these schools are run under contract by private firms, and the courts have ruled that the Ohio State Auditor has no right to even see the financial books of these private firms, since they are not governmental agencies, even though virtually all of the revenues they receive are public taxpayer funds!

What this has done is threefold. One -- It is a direct political/economic quid pro quo between the elected legislators and for-profit charter school sponsors who donate tens of thousands of dollars each election cycle to the campaigns of conservative candidates. Two -- It gives sincere parents of urban children the false impression that these alternate schools are better. In fact, a disproportionate number of charter schools rank among the lowest in Ohio, and the for-profit schools are, percentagewise, the worst. Three -- Hundreds of millions of dollars have been siphoned from the traditional public schools to be thrown down the fiscal toilet where most, not all, charter schools are drowning. This robs the traditional schools of resources they need to do their jobs efficiently.

I really suggest that you investigate TPS programs I listed above and look at the data before you assume that most TPS educators are self-serving and/or out to do evil. You could also investigate the charter schools, especially those that are run for-profit. I'll let you then draw your own conclusions.

Fred -- one last issue. TPS does not believe that the Toledo Plan solves all of the problems of educating our youth. It was the first system in which any teachers' union took direct responsibility for the quality of classroom instruction by participating in, most often initiating, the firing of bad teachers. One constant theme I've heard from conservatives in the media is that teachers' unions defend poor to terrible teacher members to the end, no matter what the effect on students. The Toledo Federation of Teachers hasn't done that for over thirty years! Initially, the main opposition to the Toledo Plan came from the administrators' union, TAAP! Now, there are few TAAP members who oppose the Toledo Plan because it works to remove poor practitioners, and does so in an environment of cooperation instead of confrontation.

Dale, please show where it applies to your claim of "have found a way to prevent reforms in TPS from working" because I fail to see the connection.

"It gives sincere parents of urban children the false impression that these alternate schools are better. In fact, a disproportionate number of charter schools rank among the lowest in Ohio, and the for-profit schools are, percentagewise, the worst." From my understanding Charter schools are not lumped in with TPS and are graded separately. ( I do know that Charter Schools are graded and if they are rated an "academic emergency in 3 of 4 years they must close their doors). That being said, parents should have no false impression because their school is given a direct grade by the state.

"Hundreds of millions of dollars have been siphoned from the traditional public schools to be thrown down the fiscal toilet where most, not all, charter schools are drowning. This robs the traditional schools of resources they need to do their jobs efficiently." The state takes money that WOULD have gone to TPS and reallocates it to the charter school. This is to the tune of $5800 per student. Yes that money doesn't go to TPS but also, neither does the student. SO.... yes TPS has less money given to it by the state BUT it now has smaller classes. AND... the TPS levy still takes the same ammount so technically yes a $5800 per child loss yet the local tax money per child is not increased.

So, how does less students and a higher local dollar per child rate prevent the "Toledo Plan" from working? OR is this only about money?

And Ohio law calls for a failing Charter School to be closed in less than 5 years. The same is not true of schools that belong to the school districts.

Spare me the righteous indignation over conservatives angry at unions over defending bad teachers. If teachers were so selfless individuals they wouldn't hold strike talks. http://www.publicschoolspending.com/uncategorized/fact-finder%E2%80%99s-...

MikeyA

When TPS loses students and the tax dollars that go with them, are you really so naive as to believe TPS can employ the same number of teachers, thereby lowering the pupil-teacher ratio? Not only have teaching positions been cut proportionate to the loss of students, but because of the loss of both local and state taxes, class sizes were much higher my last year of teaching in 2010-2011 than when charter schools first started. TPS employs several hundred less teachers now than a decade ago.

I guess you don't get the part about teachers being moved around from school to school, grade level to grade level, and subject to subject. Let's say a teacher gets training in a new Fifth Grade curriculum. The next year, that position is no longer needed. That person must be retrained at a different school and/or grade level. The next year, that person isn't needed and is laid off. The teacher is kept on a list to substitute in a variety of different positions. In February of that school year, a Second Grade opening is available. The teacher again has to learn an entirely new curriculum and deal with a set of students who have identified with a different person in that classroom for seven months! Now muliply that by a hundred or two. And this past year was the worst because of the elimination of junior highs/middle schools! Hundreds of teachers were moved! How can any organization carry on a meaningful reform of how it delivers services with constant change in assignments?

You are kidding when you refer to TPS not closing schools, right? When less classrooms are needed, that ultimately means schools must be closed. Have you seen the news reports whenever TPS needs to close one or more schools? And you think that school closings don't affect the students and the teachers?

All of the real life situations referenced above, are a direct result of the loss of funding, much of which was a direct result of the loss of students to those mostly tragically mismanaged, failing charter schools.

How many charter schools close each year? Their independent, unelected school boards hardly ever close them. Those who issue charters collect a fee and do little to oversee the schools they charter. In real life, few charter schools in Ohio close each year, and law-makers are considering changing the current law, or, at least, placing a moratorium on the closing of charter schools. If all of the charter schools in Ohio not chartered through a local school district were lumped together as a single school district, the "district" would be the lowest rated school district in this state!

I found your reference fascinating history. Many inflammatory articles are written by those who desire chaos for whatever reason even BEFORE final action is taken. Was there a strike? NO!! Did all TPS employees give tens of millions of dollars in concessions? YES!!

"When TPS loses students and the tax dollars that go with them, are you really so naive as to believe TPS can employ the same number of teachers, thereby lowering the pupil-teacher ratio?" Wrong. TPS takes money from all Toledo taxpayers regardless if their student goes there or not. This represents the largest part of the revenue from the budget. So as long as the student's family doesn't move out of the district TPS loses $0.

"TPS employs several hundred less teachers now than a decade ago." This should be an easy stat to cite then. And according to your claim the bad teachers are fired first SO it should be addition by subtraction. "must be retrained at a different school" No, that is why we call for standardization. Every other industry does it and calls it six sigma based upon the statistics term. It's standardizing everything across the district, there should be no difference in one school from another other than location.

"deal with a set of students who have identified with a different person in that classroom for seven months!" Teacher changing in the middle of the school year is not the norm. Most changes happen during the summer, the students return to new teachers every year.

"And you think that school closings don't affect the students and the teachers?" Again the best and most effective should be relocated first, again addition by subtraction.

"Was there a strike? NO!! Did all TPS employees give tens of millions of dollars in concessions? YES!!" I didn't say it did. What I did say is spare me your righteous indignation. The fact that TPS teachers are willing to walk away from their students tells me they are not dedicated to their students as they claim they are.

MikeyA

you'll just state anything to make a point.
TPS losing students DOES mean losing money. Most of the "lost" students are going to charter schools; therefore the money goes too. And, with every lost student, state funding is cut. Add to this the severe cuts in state funding since Kasich became Governor and there is a fiscal crisis. In addition, no property taxes, or only severely reduced property taxes, can be collected on abandoned properties. To help in this financial crisis, all TPS employees gave concessions in the tens of millions of dollars in the 2011 negotiations.

You're right about the number of teachers. Look it up. I can tell you that when Crystal Ellis was Superintendent I had about 5-6 less students in each of my six classes than I had in 2010-2011 school year.
You assume that when moving schools, the teacher would be teaching the same grade level. That is seldom the case. I remember one cutback about 4 years ago, when we received a person who had been teaching Kindergarten and was transferred into 7th Grade English. If you don't think this requires retraining, I don't know what else to say.

Because of financial uncertainly, the number of mid-year retirements and resignations is higher than normal, causing the changes I cited.

You deal briefly with the teachers, but not the students. As far as the teachers are concerned, the poor practitioners are not even employed. They're already gone. What about the students? They are greatly affected, especially when they've been attending one school for a number of years and must move to another. They are often split off into many different schools. This is what happened this school year with most TPS 6th and 7th graders moving to 7th and 8th grade in a different building.

In TPS there is already a program where those found to be among "the best and most effective" teachers volunteer to go to the schools with the most challenges! Again, poor practitioners AREN'T IN TPS AT ALL! They're weeded out! They're gone! Usually they teach somewhere else where the schools have lower standards. Many end up in charter schools.

We have heard the threat of a teachers' strike in Toledo over and over again, mostly stated in the right-wing media, even where there was NOT a strike authorization vote by anyone! It's all been inflammatory rhetoric, because that's the way we are in Toledo. We revel in the negative about our local institutions! The last strike in TPS was BEFORE teachers had the right to strike under state law. That was the 1977-78 school year!
There has been no strike by ANY TPS employee group since the Collective Bargaining Law came into effect! Period! In fact, there have been few public employee strikes anywhere in Ohio since the Collective Bargaining Law was passed 30, YES THIRTY, years ago!

"And, with every lost student, state funding is cut." Here's the key. STATE funding. The primary funding of TPS is the voters of Toledo. That money only gets cut when voters vote not to renue a levy. Charter schools do not get the benefit of city property tax millage. So yes, I am right. A loss of a student from TPS to a Charter school does result in a net increase in funding for the children left.

"Because of financial uncertainly, the number of mid-year retirements and resignations is higher than normal, causing the changes I cited." Ok you're going to have to cite statistics here if you're going to use something like the widespread recession. Beyond a few health concerns I find it hard to believe a large number of teachers are leaving jobs in a recession midway through the school year.

They're already gone. What about the students? They are greatly affected, especially when they've been attending one school for a number of years and must move to another. Happens every day. It happened to me in Maumee, it happened to the kids I grew up with when they went to Byrnedale. So you can't argue against doing something that already happens. Are you saying we now adjust schools to handle K-12? That's the only way to prevent it. Who wants to attend first grade at Rogers?

In TPS there is already a program where those found to be among "the best and most effective" teachers volunteer to go to the schools with the most challenges! Again, poor practitioners AREN'T IN TPS AT ALL! For the best and the brightest to only have a 83% success rate is pretty pathetic. In any other industry if you have that type of a success rate you are fired or your company goes bankrupt.

"The last strike in TPS was BEFORE teachers had the right to strike under state law. That was the 1977-78 school year!
There has been no strike by ANY TPS employee group since the Collective Bargaining Law came into effect! Period! In fact, there have been few public employee strikes anywhere in Ohio since the Collective Bargaining Law was passed 30, YES THIRTY, years ago!"

http://www.aft.org/newspubs/periodicals/ae/winter0607/rosenfeldsb.cfm
Francine Lawrence, TFT President on the collective bargaining of 1998. "We were about two and a half days away from a strike when a settlement was reached in March 1998." So yes, spare me the righteous indignation and quit acting like the Teachers haven't threatened a strike. They've used the threat and will again.

MikeyA

Despite that fact that I could list numerous American military operations which have failed in my lifetime, I also respect what you and our men and women in the military do. You don't respect what I did for 35 years. While I don't expect the military to be perfect, you seem to expect TPS to be perfect. And both are paid for with tax dollars!

You refuse to accept facts which are different than your opinion. Here's one example. The State of Ohio is supplying $1,800,000 LESS to Ohio's schools in this biennium, than in the previous biennium. In addition millions have been lost to TPS with a declining tax base. I wouldn't repeat this, but you ignored this fact in my previous post. And my property taxes in Sylvania were adjusted downward with the lower assessed evaluation. Weren't yours? That translates into LESS LOCAL TAX DOLLARS FOR SCHOOLS!! The previous governor cut as little from education as possible. The current governor just doesn't care. Despite all of these negative effects, statewide, the graduation rate increased between 1997 and 2010 from 58 per cent to 80 per cent. The "good ol' days" weren't really so good. 83% isn't ideal, but it sure beats 58%!!

I'm really glad that you focused in on the problem of transiency here. I taught throughout the 1990s. I know that some movement of students is common. In fact, if you would do some research instead of just spouting your preconceived notions, you would discover that the transiency rate in TPS is MUCH greater than that in Maumee, for example. And the transiency rate in the inner city within TPS is much higher than it is in the "rim" schools. I don't think that you really want to state how much better Maumee's elementary schools are than Beverly School in the TPS system, for example. If you bothered to read The Blade's articles about the initiatives to improve Robinson School, you would have read that one big problem there is transiency. In the last decade, we're way above the normal rate of changes. With cutbacks and school closings, plus the new K-12 plan this school year, a far greater number of students than ever before have moved more often than ever before in their school years. Maumee students never faced this problem.

Public education for all is not like a private business. I worked with my father in a samll retail sales business for fifteen years. Don't you dare to lecture me about something I lived and breathed for fifteen years!

As far as teacher retirements, I found an article which cited statistics for five of Ohio's major city school districts in 2010 and 2011, not including TPS. (We get no respect again!). Cleveland was the only district where retirements went down, and that by only 4.55%. In all the other districts, retirements went up led by Dayton at a 133.33% increase! I know that TPS retirements increased significantly, but I'm not going to spend more time researching things that you could find out yourself but don't want to find out. You HATE statistics!

You totally ignore that fact that private schools pick and choose. Traditional public schools cannot and should not. As far as success rates, I have stated unequivocally that every student I had in a classroom for 35 years who wanted to succeed, did succeed. We were even able to turn some students around. We could do more with help from outside agencies, as has been done in Cincinnati. If you don't think these children are worth the investment, Mikey, just say so!

I'll give you one example that you'll ignore, of course. We used to have an alternative high school at the old main post office, called the Jefferson Center. That school had a gosh awful graduation rate, therfore it was closed several years ago. What the articles about the Center never fully revealed was that the student population was made up wholly of students who had been expelled from at least two traditional high schools. A high percentage of the Center's students had criminal records. The students there attended classes for half of the school day, and worked at a local business the other half. I had a friend who taught there. A man you would label a loser went out of his way to visit any of his students who were incarcerated to give them assignments so that they could keep up with their school work while in jail, if they so chose. I'm sure that my friend was one of those loser teachers you refer to because the graduation rate of his students was so low. We can't lead anyone where that person does not want to go. Every one who graduated from the Center was a victory both for that young person AND for society. It meant that one less young person was likely to be incarcerated in the future at a much greater annual cost to society than it cost to educate them.

NO STRIKE since 1978. NO STRIKE under the current law WHICH ALLOWS STRIKES.

"Their independent, unelected school boards hardly ever close them. Those who issue charters collect a fee and do little to oversee the schools they charter. In real life, few charter schools in Ohio close each year, and law-makers are considering changing the current law, or, at least, placing a moratorium on the closing of charter schools." The state law is clear. Academic emergency grading for 3 of 4 years and they MUST close. If they're not closing it's because they do not fall within the metric.

"If all of the charter schools in Ohio not chartered through a local school district were lumped together as a single school district, the "district" would be the lowest rated school district in this state!" And it would also be the youngest district in the state. Meaning the other districts have had decades of falling results and you are in favor impedeing the one solution that has been tried rather than allow it to succeed.

I would be sympathetic but I heard the exact same arguement about parochial schools from public school teahers before there were charter schools and the parochial schools have a record of success.

MikeyA

The current law is NOT being enforced and may be changed. You have my quote above.

That "youngest" argument might have worked ten years ago, but how many years do you want to give them? 20? 30? 100? They use your tax dollars, too!

You're dead wrong about the "arguments" (your word, not mine) used regarding the comparison of traditional public schools with parochial schools. Let me first state that I have the greatest respect for those who teach in parochial schools. Most parochial schools are successful. But there's a good reason.
The "argument" then and now is totally different than are the severe problems with charter schools in Ohio. Parochial schools get to pick and choose their students. If a student does not maintain standards, and/or if the parents don't follow through with their agreements, the students are out. I did my student teaching at a local parochial school. One student vandalized the school and was caught. THE NEXT DAY, he was at the traditional public school in that district. No mere suspension. No appeal. He was gone. Period. Now what public school could do that? I also know someone personally whose son and some others were doing drugs at a local parochial high school. He was kicked out, but at least two others with whom he was caught stayed in that school because their parents were large contributors of money to the school.

There have been schools who've tried to circumvent the law but the last statistic I saw was 108 schools statewide had been closed. So you can't say it hasn't been followed but the law does have some loopholes.

Well, TPS has been failing for 30+ years and you seem content to let them keep trying. So I'll say 25, how's that. Why are you such a strong steward for tax dollars on Charter Schools but not Public schools?

Now parochial schools, you're getting into my realm because I went to two. Most times their "pick and choose" are whoever is willing to pay. The grade school I went to did not turn anyone away. What are your thoughts on the teachers of Birmingham Elementary using TPS supplies to create fliers to attempt to lure parents of children away from Eagle Academy as Chris Myers, site owner, witnessed? Again, done with taxpayer funded supplies.

A kid who vandalizes a school should not be allowed at that school PERIOD. Regardless of whether it's public or private. That being said a kid I went to school with in one parochial school was caught dealing drugs on the premises. They spoke to his parents on the issue. No suspension, no expelling.

MikeyA

I truly do NOT believe that you or most people who call themselves "conservative" want to destroy traditional public schools. But, there are many wealthy conservatives who don't want their children or grandchildren to have to worry about competing with well educated common folks' kids. They are doing their best to sabotage traditional public schools, because, despite public perceptions, traditional public schools have been too successful!

These same one per centers, if you will, are trying to sabotage college educations as well. Under the guise of budget balancing, they have already allowed the price of a college education to spiral above the level where many common folks can afford it.

And, to add profit to destruction, there is a bill proposed for the Ohio General Assembly which would create Charter Colleges. Why not? K-12 charter schools have been so profitable!

You can't be serious with this post can you?

Dale, if I felt so strongly about destroying public schools they would do it the way Andrew Kehoe did.

"They are doing their best to sabotage traditional public schools, because, despite public perceptions, traditional public schools have been too successful!" Dale, I never realized you were this delusional.

MikeyA

Welcome to the standard delusions of the TPS class, Mikey. They truly believe they are good people doing good work. How else can you justify being so highly compensated while your work product stinks so very badly?

I never credited Dale with brains or sanity, but he might be meaning the traditional public schools have been too successful at producing a highly-paid Golden Class, that of course the Republicans want to destroy. Remember, the TPS advocates always speak from nearly sociopathic self interest. They have no other viewpoint. They know damned well that they have totally failed to perform their jobs, and that if they had to do real work, or had to labor under market wages, they'd be in the lower part of the middle class. They are terrified of that, and that we'd finally catch onto their little scam.

Is equal to handing guilty arsonists gasoline to extinguish burning buildings. These people don't care as much about kids as they proclaim. What they are concerned with is ensuring their step increases return, and they still receive things such as 15 annual sick days.

Vote against this levy if you care about the future of Toledo. Foreclosures still are high and these crooked bastards at tps want more of our money.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.