Another one who doesn't have a clue.

Joy Behar from the view today said the reason Nadya Suleman( the lady with 14 children)had all those kids was because of the government not forcing compaines to pay for contraceptives for women. BUWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA,SNORT SNORT BUWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA OHHHH WOW ...

No votes yet

YOU watch the view? Too funny! Does it help with your ovaries?

Oh I forgot there is no other form of news when someone makes a controversial statement, your showing that liberal logic again.....

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

I just find it funny you watch the view.

you believe I watch the view, another liberal attack lie. If you want to know where I got it from just ask. Again she made a statment that other news media picked up, stop being so narrow minded and check other news sites..

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

The only people that lied were your parents when they told you you were a male.

If Octomom was given mental health services, she might not have had all those kids. No one who is sane has a litter of children.

And the same goes for the Quiverfull morons:

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

BUWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA GOOD ONE LMAO

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

Supposidly Joy Behar is a comedian. I've never heard her tell a joke.

Maybe it's physical comedy.

MikeyA

Then, I laughed at the ridiculousness of a the idiocy of blaming Big Government, for not being Big enough !?

You couldn't satisfy a socialist if you lined up the top 1% and massacred them all.
Then, the next 1% ers would have to be killed.
Then, ...until those wanting this sanguinary madness would be the next ones killed....

Hey, there's George Zimmerman, lets GET HIM !!!

I read online the other day that the octomom receives $2k a month foodstamps to feed her 14 kids. I say, how about they make the irresponsible doctor that implanted her, a single mother with 8 embryos (or whatever the proper term is).

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

If any woman enters the office of a fertility doctor to get pregnant and already has SIX CHILDREN, what is going through the mind of the doctor who implants fertilized eggs in her?? I agree that the doctor should be held responsible for the 8 he helped to create!!

And where are the father or fathers of these other six? She's obviously mentally ill, and, whoever he or they may be, why should society pay for their taking advantage of a sick woman?! Why can't the government find out who these men are and make them fork over child support for the first six? The octuplets should be the fertility doc's responsibility!

Sadly, the children have to be leading a strange life through no fault of theirs!

Why are you trying to control the reproductive rights of women? LOL, at least that's what you liberals said when the bishops were made to pay for contraception.

"Why can't the government find out who these men are and make them fork over child support for the first six?" If I remember correctly she used sperm donors. Should the government hunt them down? What else can the government do for you today?

"The octuplets should be the fertility doc's responsibility!" Maybe the government should regulate who he can treat or not to solve this problem since government solves so many problems.

"Sadly, the children have to be leading a strange life through no fault of theirs!" Fear not! They'll be ok once we hire enough social workers to be in their school. YAY GOVERNMENT, THE SAVIOR OF US ALL!

MikeyA

what's your take on octomom? And, again, whether you like it or not, these children will share the world with yours and mine for a long time. Would you provide them nothing? They're already saddled with a crazy mother!

That doc has no responsibility here? Really? He's not taking advantage of a crazy woman? Make him pay for making his ludicrous choice! Have him pay for the last 8!

Dale to answer your question, yes she is insane. Yet more government regulation will not solve the problem.

When did I say these kids don't deserve assistance? I have never said that nor implied that.

The doctor has a moral and ethical responsibility and should be made to answer to his peers not to the government since it's his peers who have to deal with the fallout from his decision.

The problem is there are people like you who on one side of your mouth claim that a woman's productive system is her right and nobody elses business. So I ask you is it only her business? You'd have me pay for her to get free contraception and tell the taxpayers that their morality doesn't matter, as she seems to have little to no morality and giving her free contraception wouldn't have prevented any of these kids. Your solution for these kids is to give them a social worker at a school that can't teach them to read and pretend as if the school is doing a bangup job.

Your solutions are not solutions at all as they solve no problems and create more. What would you have done to a student who returned your test to you with more questions on it than what was assigned? Pass them, or realize they probably don't know or understand the material?

MikeyA

I don't understand your "government regulation" comment in this context. Right now, the government, using your tax dollars and mine, is paying. Who else could make the doctor who implanted this woman with 8 embryos pay?

As far as women's reproductive rights are concerned, I believe this to be a matter between each woman and her doctor. However, if the doctor acts inappropriately, (s)he should be held responsible for those inappropriate actions, as the doctor would be held responsible anytime (s)he would make an erroneous decision. I believe this doctor to have done something that constitutes a form of malpractice in this case.

The contraception argument is really the exact opposite of this situation. When someone pays for contraception, tax payers aren't stuck with supporting children until they reach adulthood!

I'm not going to bore people with the whole public education argument again here. All I will say is what I told my students. The attitude one takes walking into a school building and a classroom means more than the school or classroom into which the student walks.

Every child in TPS is given the opportunity to do well. Most TPS students graduate and become productive citizens. Because of injuries from a recent auto accident, I saw two former students now working for Toledo Hospital, and one former student who is in college, getting a degree in nursing! Personally, I had high standards and I gave a lot of "F" grades.

for these poor children being raised by this crazy woman! It's simply not their fault!

But you're taking a chance with that position. Some "me society, not we society" people here may not like your concern for others!

It has nothing to do with concern for others.

It has to do with promoting a society that constantly improves for all involved. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. It is for this reason that I am a proponent of a progressive tax code and not in favor of a straight flat tax or fair tax.

There are some things government can do to help people but the onus must always be on the individual to help oneself because only they can change their situation.

MikeyA

"Who else could make the doctor who implanted this woman with 8 embryos pay?" Currently the doctor in question has to hold a license and certification through a board of peers. I'm not saying "make him pay" but they could hold them responsible. Plus there are groups like the AMA who are influential as it comes to medical ethics.

"However, if the doctor acts inappropriately, (s)he should be held responsible for those inappropriate actions, as the doctor would be held responsible anytime (s)he would make an erroneous decision." The point here is the doctor made an unethical decision not an illegal one. You can't legislate ethics, the evangelicals have been trying that for years.

" I believe this doctor to have done something that constitutes a form of malpractice in this case." And it's things that this that have contributed to the high cost of insurance doctors pay. It's not malpractice. It's dumb and unethical, but not malpractice.

"The contraception argument is really the exact opposite of this situation." No in both I'm being told I need to pay for something. However only one of the actions perpetuates irresponsible behavior. With child welfare there are things such as linking it to training and education programs which have had success.

"Because of injuries from a recent auto accident, I saw two former students now working for Toledo Hospital, and one former student who is in college, getting a degree in nursing! Personally, I had high standards and I gave a lot of "F" grades." Judging from your description of the electoral college I am thankful you weren't their biology teacher.

MikeyA

When you feel you are losing the argument, you turn to a personal attack against the person with whom you are arguing.

Too bad you can't simply argue the merits of your position without getting personal.

Sadly typical of me? Excuse me while I break out into song and sing "I've gotta be me!"

"Too bad you can't simply argue the merits of your position without getting personal."

I make no apologies. The TPS is failing young people. You defend the failing system and offer solutions that are not solutions. And then give us a anecdote of how well the students are getting when pure facts do not support your argument.

So I guess I'm sorry that your failures are so personal. I'm sorry you have a problem with me point that out. But remember you did support someone who accused me of a crime I did not commit and also told me that "nothing justified" the retort I gave that person. For me that's way more personal than anything I have ever posted to you.

MikeyA

This is not the thread for carrying on this discussion. I stand by what I said about the success of a student being related primarily to that student's attitude at school.

I'm sorry for you. By charging over and over and over again that TPS is a failed system, you disparage TPS students, most of whom are good kids who graduate [statistically over 83%], and become productive citizens.

As far as your personal attacks are concerned, I consider the source. Personal attacks are an attempt to change the focus away from the issue, and are made by those bereft of good arguments on the topic at hand. Such attacks tell us all, more about the person making the attacks, than about those being attacked.

I am fully willing to have the TPS discussion. I can take issue with the 83% quite easily because graduation rates are a measurement of success only if the graduation itself holds esteem and for TPS it does not.

"Such attacks tell us all, more about the person making the attacks, than about those being attacked" So what does your buddy Roland's attacks towards me say about him? Please elaborate because you were quick to attack my retort to him.

MikeyA

And you ignore the fact that , "...and most become productive citizens". Every student who wants to learn does well in TPS. I see them almost everywhere I go!

Of all things to ignore, you ignore individual motivation, and the success of most TPS students because they are properly motivated. How very sad for you!

Way to deflect from the Roland question.

And I am not attacking TPS students. I am attacking the TPS administration and teachers who are FAILING the students.

The sad thing is you accept a 18% failure rate and that's with cooked metrics.

MikeyA

You wrote what you wrote in a public forum. Live with it!

In another part of this thread you state, "Of the large majority of the people I know who graduated from TPS [sic] they read at an 8th grade level." Yet you claim, "I am not attacking TPS students."

BTW...100% - 83% = 17%, not 18%. This is trivial, I know. But if I made this type of mistake...

"Every child in TPS is given the opportunity to do well. Most TPS students graduate and become productive citizens."

Well, that's not good enough, Dale. That 100%-83%=17% curiously mirrors the recidivism rate for arrests. I'm sure there's overlap, but I'd say that the troublesome 17% of our population are more than enough of a problem with regards to our legal system. In other words, we're creating too many criminals.

K-12 schooling is so easy that the graduation rate of any particular system should be 95%+. For the hugely expensive TPS, one can only assume that that staggering sum is put towards ensuring understanding that a minimum of graduation standards are met, those being reading, writing and math. Sadly, what's going on with the TPS (not to mention practically every other pub-school system) doesn't match this outcome.

School systems like the TPS are really only holding pens for unwanted children. They are "pre-prisons". They are run like prisons (including lock-downs), are expensive like prisons, and have wholly unaccountable people running them (just like in prisons). I've said this before and have greatly enjoyed the squawking about how terrible that is, and yet, nobody can really show how it's false. And that's understandable, since it's true.

We have to convert the TPS from a pre-prison system into a system using worker merit that achieves 95%+ graduations to minimum standards. I'd allow practically any radical change as long as the teachers (aren't they the real workforce in the system?) were given almost total control of the curriculum. I never understood how we allowed teachers to be emasculated in their own classrooms; I also don't understand how unionized labor like them allowed it for themselves.

And if that 5-10 year period of radical changes doesn't work, we'd fire them all as the useless bastards they really are, starting with the very worst of the bunch: The administrators. Sadly, public control of the school system is almost nil, or it's aligned with putting yes-men on the BOE who pencil-whip the labor contracts. So it's just going to have to get worse before it gets better.

Any system where 83% succeed, and I'm using that number because most of those who graduate do become productive citizens, is not a failing system. Should the graduation rate be higher? Of course! But, with ever more limited resources, an 83% rate in an urban district is quite amazing! And standards have been raised. The course work required to obtain a diploma, is more difficult now than it ever was! For example, many students with whom I attended TPS graduated without ever taking Algebra or Geometry. Now, these are both required for every high school graduate in Ohio.

Why do urban districts cost so much more per pupil than suburban, exurban, or rural districts? Because urban districts have so many more students with special needs. Are you aware that some students, who in previous generations would have been institutionalized, must be served in public schools? Are you aware that some require daily medical services and even frequent toileting? Urban school districts have several classrooms with a teacher, two teachers' aides, and one extra teachers' aide assigned to one very needy student, along with perhaps 7 other students. Do you know what this does to skew the pupil-teacher ratio numbers and the per pupil expenditures? Detailed studies done about per pupil spending shows that spending for non-special ed students is virtually the same now as it was 30 years ago! Almost all of the increased funding, beyond inflation, has gone to special education.

Now, I'm not saying that we should do as was done when I was a student, and just allow special ed students to fail, and the more severely challenged to languish in an institution. But when we compare per pupil spending from one district to another, it would be appropriate to have separate figures on just the per pupil costs in each district based upon the non-special ed students only.

The most discouraging thing is, however, the way too many people analyze why teachers teach. I have worked with hundreds of teachers. I can count on one hand those who were teaching primarily for the salary and the benefits. Do you have any idea what it means to idealistic, young people who want to help children, when they read that all they do is put in their time until they can retire?

I know that ideologues HATE facts, but here I go again! About 1/2 of all those who enter the teaching profession, leave within the first 5 years. So, if we really want to recruit and retain better teachers, shouldn't we at least show them some respect? Shouldn't we assume that most of them have the primary goal of preparing young people for a productive life?

Where I work out, a number of years ago, I met a retired doctor. He was born and raised in China. He went back to visit every year. As is common among many of us, he would visit the graves of his deceased relatives to pay his respects. But, HE also visited the graves of his deceased teachers.

Until our society raises the level of respect associated with the teaching profession, we will have too many good teaching prospects finding other professions. Ultimately, this undermines our future. As our first strong proponent of public education, Thomas Jefferson, stated, "If a nation wants to be ignorant and free, it wants what never was and what never will be."

I want you to fly in a plane whose landing gear has an 83% success rate!

In the real world failure costs lives and money. TPS fails the kids on a daily basis and all it means is a few bad grades but when they get to the real world all of us pay the price. I believe you said something similar when you wanted a certain doc to pay for his kids. That's a novel idea. I think TPS teachers should have to pay for every former student who is on welfare.

83% That means the rest CANNOT READ! Of the large majority of people I know who graduated from TPS they read at an 8th grade level. And this includes those who did go to college. It's called passing the buck and TPS teachers do it well... unless we're talking about actual money.

MikeyA

The 17% who don't graduate on time are all because of educators? No individual responsibility. No parental responsibility. No other family members' responsibility. No neighborhood responsibility. No clergy responsibility. Just educators!

Your analysis shows just how well you understand student achievement! Your comments encourage the best and the brightest to become teachers, especially so they can teach the most challenging of students in the urban core! Good job!!

All I can say is that I improved a lot as a teacher when I moved from Cherry Elementary School to DeVeaux. One of my friends improved as a teacher even more when he moved from LaGrange Elementary to Ottawa Hills! One of my former student teachers at DeVeaux improved quite a bit when he moved from a Dayton-area school to Ottawa Hills! Nothing matters except the educators. Hmmm...

Schools are the testing ground to weed out those who are not prepared to do technical or professional work. That's why we must have high standards. Every year I taught, I'd have students ask me why I was so demanding and why they had to learn what I was teaching. I informed them that school was all about preparing them for a job in a field they could enjoy. I told them that we have a highly competitive world, and a lot of people want good-paying, fulfilling jobs.

I told them that the saddest adults I knew were those who went to work every day at a job they hated, just to get a paycheck. And I told them that how much they got from the school experience was mostly up to them. I told them that I, and the teachers with whom I worked, would help them to learn any way we could, but the primary factor was their personal motivation; their attitude toward learning.

The landing gear works more than 83% of the time because those who fail in school are not allowed to work to make or maintain the landing gear. And, I never said that a 17% failure rate was acceptable. With all the cutbacks to traditional public schools in Ohio, especially in the last decade, it is amazingly good.

"And, I never said that a 17% failure rate was acceptable." No your exact wording was it works for over 83%. The implication then being that it works so yes then the implication is that a 17% failure rate is acceptable.

"No individual responsibility. No parental responsibility. No other family members' responsibility. No neighborhood responsibility. No clergy responsibility. Just educators!" Home schooled children have higher success rates than public schools, as do parochial schools. Why should I hold them accountable when they do well when the onus is on them. When public school teachers fail apparently that's the only time it's everyone elses fault. Where is the personal responsibility for teachers.

MikeyA

And the children they kick out end up where? You guessed it. Most end up in traditional public schools. With few discipilne problems, parochial schools spend less time on classroom management and more time on lessons. I did my student teaching in a Catholic school. I saw this in action. I also saw the worst teacher I have ever seen in that Catholic school!

Almost every home schooled child has at least one involved parent. Guess what? Almost every successful student I taught had at least one involved parent! Remember attitude? When the parent expects a child to have a positive attitude toward learning, that child achieves well in any learning situation.

Still waiting for a link...

I'm guessing the "father" was an anonymous sperm donor, in which case he wouldn't be to blame.
I just wonder if the goofy bitch thought she would immediately be given her own reality show or something.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

Dale, there was too much to deal with in the shortened post so I'm responding here.

No one cares about my problems with Roland eh? "You wrote what you wrote in a public forum. Live with it!" Apparently you care. Yet you support someone who makes accusations yet conveniently decry personal attacks when you are discussed.

"In another part of this thread you state, "Of the large majority of the people I know who graduated from TPS [sic] they read at an 8th grade level." Yet you claim, "I am not attacking TPS students."" Reporting facts is not attacking, they're reporting facts. Since you are a teacher I wouldn't expect you to know the difference. Plus I report these facts not to attack but to hopefully put enough pressure to get a solution. My goal is improve the educations of TPS students, not pad the wallets of failing teachers.

"BTW...100% - 83% = 17%, not 18%. This is trivial, I know. But if I made this type of mistake..." It is a keypunch error. 7 and 8 are right next to each other on the keyboard. I didn't catch it before clicking save. Unlike TPS teachers I am fully able and willing to admit when I fail and make a mistake. This was one of those times. Unlike TPS teachers I don't make a habit of it and I don't attempt to change metrics to cover up my failures or deflect and blame other outside factors, like attitude.

BTW.....17% of the children TPS(is forced to admit) they fail is about 5100 students total. Divide that by 13 (K to 12) and that means every year TPS fails almost 400 high school students each year.

To put it into unionized terms that's almost an entire shift at the Toledo Jeep North Complex that can't read, write, or do basic math.

MikeyA

Your statement about the reading level of those you know who attended TPS is anecdotal, unmeasurable nonsense. Do some real research before you smear your friends and aquaintences.

Your 17%/18% mistake is human error. I only pointed it out. We all make mistakes I was merely stating that if I would make such an error, you would likely make a disparaging remark about it.

You obviously read my posts looking for things to criticize, rather than trying to come to any type of understanding. I have been told that jobs at Jeep now all require at least a high school diploma. The 17% who do not get that diploma from TPS, obviously, could not be working a shift there.

Anecdotal evidence when supported by facts give light to the greater issue at hand. And I have already posted the TPS ping pong back and forth between Academic Watch and Continual Improvement (neither qualify for passing), so yes, I have done my research and it supports my anecdotes, not yours.

"you would likely make a disparaging remark about it." You give me too little credit. In fact several on here will back me up that I let things slide when others do not. For instance, I am not a grammar nazi, like others on here. I am a strong proponent of informal language. In fact, there's only one person who I have corrected in this regard and it is only because the person in question is truly a huge POS.

"You obviously read my posts looking for things to criticize, rather than trying to come to any type of understanding. I have been told that jobs at Jeep now all require at least a high school diploma. The 17% who do not get that diploma from TPS, obviously, could not be working a shift there." And yet you defend the system that fails them from being able to get a good job that the least education in the city have been able to rely for the last 80 years. Congratulations for failing a generation and being proud of it.

And no I don't read your posts looking for things to criticize. You actually make that quite easy, I barely need to skim over your posts. I won't lie some of it entertains me just to see what crackpot scheme you think of next.

I am in awe of your ability to ignore the problem and treat only symptoms and even when the solution is simple you defend the insane as defined by Einstein. If bullshit was a wine yours would be the Domaine Romanée-Conti.

MikeyA

I know you hate facts. Facts get in the way of your opinions!

Most of those who do not get a diploma, have terrible attendance. I guess that is the fault of the schools, too! Not the individual. Not the parents.

Every year I would start by pointing out that I could not teach empty chairs. I made phone calls home every week about attendance. Parents were surprised I did so, but the students were more surprised! I was not allowed to go to a student's home and take the student to school. We sometimes had our police officer do that, though. I did buy a few alarm clocks for students who were chronically late.

Yes, I always allowed makeup work. I actually allowed them to turn in makeup work right up to the end of the quarter! Yes, makeup work was turned in by those who succeeded, and most students succeeded.

Teachers take their responsibilities seriously. But we have a limited amount of time with students, and we can only do so much. After they leave school, others must be responsible for them, including they, themselves, especially as they get older!

And you have avoided answering questions pertinent to this debate. If teacher unons are the problem, why are so many states where teacher unions are not allowed, among the lowest performers on those standardized tests you love so much? If teacher unions are the problem, why are so many more non-union charter schools in the categories of "Academic Emergency" and "Academic Watch" than are traditional public schools right here in Ohio, right here in Toledo?

Anecdotal evidence is unreliable, which is why its good practice to link it with facts, which I did. You see Dale, when I finally got my bachelor's degree after changing majors a few times it was in journalism. Journalists take facts and report them then they link them to anecdotal evidence. It's common practice. It is exactly what I did.

Now what you've done is presented anecdotal evidence that is not supported by facts in an effort to refute the facts. Now I'm not saying your anecdote is wrong what I am saying is it is an outlier to the facts. For instance:

"Most of those who do not get a diploma, have terrible attendance." Wrong. TPS scored 94.7% in attendance. So that means 11% does not fit into your anecdotal evidence. http://www.ode.state.oh.us/reportcardfiles/2010-2011/DIST/044909.pdf?bcs... Oddly enough it's one of the five metrics that TPS scored well in.

"And you have avoided answering questions pertinent to this debate. If teacher unons are the problem, why are so many states where teacher unions are not allowed, among the lowest performers on those standardized tests you love so much? If teacher unions are the problem, why are so many more non-union charter schools in the categories of "Academic Emergency" and "Academic Watch" than are traditional public schools right here in Ohio, right here in Toledo?" First off, I have not avoided the debate. Charter schools are new and while they break the paradigm I am not convinced they are the be all end all solution as you try to paint me.

Secondly, you lump charter schools all together. I'm sure you know each one has a different focus. So one that puts more emphasis on technical studies is vastly different than one who's emphasis is on more cultural studies. You paint these with a broad brush and it's not so simple.

Third, I am more a proponent of giving vouchers to private schools. They already are established, they can be evalutated on the same metrics as public schools and when they do outperform them consistently. And I am not talking just parochial schools. I believe we need to get back to more of the military schools because many students in the Toledo area lack one consistent thing both at home and in the classroom and that's discipline.

Forth, I'd be highly in favor of just implementing more disciplined measures at TPS. Again what TPS lacks the most from students and teachers is discipline. Discipline is not the enemy of enthusiasm. Here is my anecdotal evidence:

I am in the military and I have prided my career on being successful of taking people's problem children (many are 19-20yr olds failed by public school systems around the country) and I have been able to make the far majority of them perform. This is because I communicate my intent to them from the getgo that 1) I have high standards 2) they will not be sacrificed. Because if there's one thing I've learned in the last 15 years is EVERYONE will either rise or fall to the standards you set. So if you set high standards those that rise to them will hit high standards. Those that don't will fail but will still probably fail at a higher level than working for someone with low standards.

In the TPS report card we see a trend that from 1st through 8th grade the district is woefully failing. Only in high school do we see a sudden jump. This indicates that either the students are getting suddenly smarter from 9th to 12th grade OR the district dumps more money and effort into those grades in an effort to pathetically try and hit the states metrics. I will leave it to you to identify which is true.

MikeyA

One thing when rereading I think I should clarify. Those problem children are people who have failed elsewhere in the Marines. Currently I have 7 Marines working for me. 4 are unwanted children who were sent for me to put them to work because they have been court-martialed or NJP'd or have been such a cancer to their past section that the section wanted to just get rid of them to keep their morale high. Of the 3 who aren't problems 1 was the base Marine of the Quarter, 1 is a new Staff NCO who I will lose because he's a well known duty expert (self taught duty expert) and the other is a LCpl who I have written up for a Naval Achievement Medal.

Of the problem children 2 have done complete 180's and are now doing well in the Battalion. The other 2 are short termers who are already being processed out and because of their short time I can only mentor so much but at least one I have already planning on going to college and will probably end up with an athletic scholarship because she is a bodybuilder, softball player, and trying to become and olympic qualifying swimmer (she's done well because I've put her in positions where she can attempt to thrive but she came to me 2 weeks ago and will be out in a month not much time to "succeed" in the workplace.

MikeyA

I'm missing the "factual evidence" linked to your friends' reading levels. Did you give your friends a diagnostic reading test? I missed that report. Where is it?

You say "Charter schools are new..." They have been around for longer than this century has! That argument worked around 2001, not in 2012! You're just upset with them because they don't support your anti-union, simplistic answer to the problem of education! I am using them as a real life example of non-union schools right here in Ohio, which, overall, perform at a lower level than do traditional public schools. And you still didn't respond to the question of non-union schools in states which NEVER allowed teacher unions to have contracts with school districts. They've been around longer than have unionized schools. If unions were the problem, most of these non-union charter schools should be at the top of the state report card. If unions were the problem, the schools in states which don't allow teacher unions would be at the top of the national list of standardized test scores. The opposite is true!

You lump TPS schools all together! Some are rated "Excellent" by the state! How about the Grove Patterson Academy? How about TTA? They have individual focus. But guess what they have in greater abundance? Parental involvement!!

Studies done in Cleveland and Milwaukee show that students attending private, voucher schools do about the same on standardized tests as children from the same neighborhoods who attend traditional public schools.

I do agree that better discipline is a key factor to improving student achievement. I have contended throughout my years teaching that the main reason why parents choose private schooling or home schooling is for the safety of their children. If a teacher spends less time on classroom management, (s)he can spend more time on instruction (duh!).

The difference between public schools and parochial schools is stark in this regard. If a child does something seriously wrong, in a private school, there is no necessity for a multi-step, due process system. Depending upon how serious the problem is, that child can be sent home to never return with the first such incident. In a public school, we've had children charged and convicted of assault at school, who have returned to the same school after serving a suspension which overlapped time incarcerated in a juvenile facility! Yes. The person(s) assaulted were still at the school as well!

While I deeply respect the military and the work you do, remember, you have seven young adults to mentor. While four had problems in the Marine Corps, it is difficult to enter the Corps if you have a criminal record when you apply. I had an average of 28-29 students per class in the last few years, and I had students each year who had criminal records. And this was at DeVeaux! I can't say what my colleagues in other TPS junior high/middle schools faced! How many convicted criminals are matriculating at Ottawa Hills? How many convicted criminals does Little Flower or St. Francis admit?

Finally...attendance statistics. You know that aggregate numbers only tell part of the story. Almost all of the 83% of TPS students who graduate on time, have attendance greater than the overall average of 94.7%. Most of the 17% who fail to graduate pile up a disproportionately high number of these aggregate days of absence. But, I bet you knew that already. Good debating point, but wrong! There was a study done with the old state proficiency tests in the 1990s. We wanted to know how a child could start taking the "9th grade test" in 8th grade and still not pass all of the tests by the time of high school graduation. It was found then that 80% of those who, as seniors, still had not passed at least one of the tests, were chronically absent! And that was after many of their peers had already dropped out of school. Most who drop out officially had dropped out by non-attendance over a period of several years before the official drop-out date.

I never did figure out how to teach empty chairs!

"Did you give your friends a diagnostic reading test? I missed that report. Where is it?" the facts are the TPS report card. The fact that they read at an 8th grade level is the anecdote supported by the facts.

"you have seven young adults to mentor." This is only my CURRENT situation. This time last summer I had 162 at one point 148 at lowest and 157 avg Marines. Of that 10% were problems. Only 2 were processed out with negative paperwork. Also during this time I only had 3 SNCOs. That's the challenge of being a Remain Behind Element. You get all the problems and few good leaders to help. We took on that challenge.

"How many convicted criminals are matriculating at Ottawa Hills? How many convicted criminals does Little Flower or St. Francis admit?" I went to St. John's. I can assure you they are present in parochial schools as well.

"Most of the 17% who fail to graduate pile up a disproportionately high number of these aggregate days of absence. But, I bet you knew that already. Good debating point, but wrong!" 6% attendance doesn't equal 17% failing when using the same size sample. So now you are not arguing with me but statistics. I'll provide you a reference to help you with it. http://www.amazon.com/Statistics-For-Dummies-Deborah-Rumsey/dp/0764554239 Now if the Report card reduces the sample to get to 6% the proof for that is on you but I did not see anything in the state report to indicate it.

MikeyA

Does the TPS report card state that most who graduate from TPS read at an 8th grade level? And where does the TPS report card state that your friends who graduated from high school read at an 8th grade level?

The fact remains that not everyone who applies to enter the Corps is accepted. The same is true at parochial schools. Traditional public schools must accept everyone!

Are you really arguing that the average Catholic school has as many students with a criminal record as the average urban public school? You are kidding! Right?

Apparently, if you really don't understand how aggregate numbers are garnered and reported, you need to read a different book! I hate working with statistics. Unfortunately, I have had to work with them all the time, both in business and as a teacher. And, yes, I did take courses in college, too. I got a "B" in undergrad and an "A" in grad school. I was more mature and better prepared to be a student when I was in grad school, even though that grad course was much more challenging.

Lastly, you again ignore the hundreds of non-union schools and school districts which perform so poorly. Don't allow facts to influence your opinion...never, ever,ever!!.

A: Between 8th & 9th grade.

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

And the average public school is failing it's students.

The reading level is the indicator of an overall problem. Especially since reading comprehension is on a downward trend. Please look at the NAAL's reports on literacy of 1992 and 2003.

http://www.begintoread.com/research/literacystatistics.html

Now some things have helped to combat this. The popularity of the internet for instance. Because the internet is primarily a reading medium it has helped to promote literacy and reading comprehension, contrast with from 1950-2000 when television grew at a rapid rate and was not a reading comprehension medium.

Additonally, from the link. "Why learn to read early?
Two-thirds of students who cannot read proficiently by the end of the 4th grade will end up in jail or on welfare. The fourth grade is the watershed year."
Now knowing that please look at the state's report card of TPS for the forth grade. It's depressing.

MikeyA

And the average public school is failing it's students.

Then why are 35 of the 37 schools in Lucas County ranked Excellent or Excellent with Distinction public schools and only two are charter schools?

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

If that is the case then explain to me why the district only meets 5 of the 30 of the state's metrics? citation, state report card already linked.

MikeyA

Dale you have a distinguished lack of understanding of how anecdotal evidence is used.

"The fact remains that not everyone who applies to enter the Corps is accepted." What is the requirement for the Marine Corps? A GED. However, realistically, with a high school diploma and a passing score on the ASVAB (heard of people passing using the Abracadabra method) and you're in. AND both those two are waivable!

"Are you really arguing that the average Catholic school has as many students with a criminal record as the average urban public school? You are kidding! Right?" Did I say that? No. You're said that parochial schools kick kids out who have criminal records. I know for a fact that this is not true.

"Lastly, you again ignore the hundreds of non-union schools and school districts which perform so poorly. Don't allow facts to influence your opinion...never, ever,ever!!." I don't ignore them. Please cite these schools and we'll see if they fit into what I've advocated AND compare them to what you advocate. So yes, let's deal in the facts please.

"Apparently, if you really don't understand how aggregate numbers are garnered and reported, you need to read a different book!" Then please enlighten me since I am so ignorant. Show me where I am wrong and where 6% absenteeism = 17% failure. Hell I think I could make the argument better than you and I haven't even drawn that conclusion.

MikeyA

What is the requirement for the Marine Corps? A GED. However, realistically, with a high school diploma and a passing score on the ASVAB (heard of people passing using the Abracadabra method) and you're in. AND both those two are waivable!

What if a potential recruit has a sub 50 IQ, has no coordination, and shits himself daily? Does he get in? Because my 8th grade gym class shared the space with the special ed class and they were all allowed into public schools. They also had to take standardized tests that counted towards the district's cumulative score.

I don't ignore them. Please cite these schools and we'll see if they fit into what I've advocated AND compare them to what you advocate.

Here's a list of charter schools in Lucas County in Academic Emergency:

Achieve Career Preparatory Academy
Eagle Learning Center
Lake Erie Academy
Phoenix Academy Community School
Polly Fox Academy Community School
Summit Academy Community School-Toledo
Toledo Preparatory Academy
Victory Academy of Toledo

That list comprises over 40% of all schools in Academic Emergency in Lucas County. Instead of improving education in Ohio, charter schools are making us pay double for the same results.

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

Mikey, you're still ignoring those "great" non-union teachers in states where teacher unions are PROHIBITTED BY LAW and have among the lowest student test scores, by which you want to judge union teachers!

Mikey...admit it! Unions are not the problem.

Seriously. Mikey. I respect so much what you do. Not only am I very supportive of the military, but, by your description, I admire the work you are doing within the military. What makes you think that most, not all, but most, school teachers don't work as hard to have their students succeed as you work to have your mentees succeed?

Over the years, I've heard terrible things about how so many in the military do as little as they can get away with to serve their 20 and get a pension for life. I argue with others that these goldbricks are anomalies. Yet, you believe that most teachers enter the profession just to put in their time and get a pension? Walk a mile in our shoes first. Respect what I did as much as I respect what do are doing!

"Mikey, you're still ignoring those "great" non-union teachers in states where teacher unions are PROHIBITTED BY LAW and have among the lowest student test scores, by which you want to judge union teachers!" Yes, because you are talking different metrics. If this were a discussion about national education then I would discuss them. However I am dealing with TPS and thus I will only use metrics of school districts who have to abide by the same laws, practices, and physical/human/political geography as TPS.

"Unions are not the problem" Unions have not done ANYTHING to improve education at the local or state level. They have been a anchor holding back any type of change and advocate keeping the same progressively failing path. So yes they are a large part of the problem.

"What makes you think that most, not all, but most, school teachers don't work as hard to have their students succeed as you work to have your mentees succeed?" I never said they didn't work toward success. I've dealt with results. I have been successful at getting results which is why I've been advanced and retained (even with the current cuts) whereas TPS teachers do not achieve results. How many times has TPS received the rating of "EFFECTIVE" where they achieve state minimums? If the answer is less than 3 in the last 10 years then it is a culture of failure and changes MUST be made.

"Over the years, I've heard terrible things about how so many in the military do as little as they can get away with to serve their 20 and get a pension for life." I agree, in any situation you get these types. We must be agressive to their identification. That is why I do not complain about the current cuts.

The military is cutting 20% of it's force. For the Marines (the most efficent of the forces) this will be a direct 10% cut of it's personnel force about 20k Marines. I support it because it will make us a much leaner and better force. Right now I brief my Marines that if you get in trouble I will not hesitate to process you out because they are holding up space for a Marine who won't get in trouble. The adsep process is down to 1 1/2 months whereas 2 years ago it was at 5 months. Now we have the ability to get rid of the dead weight, and we are. And I am apart of a force that delivers 20% of the DoD's combat power on 4% of the budget!

Now when TPS agrees to take such drastic measures I'd be happy to hear it. Yet if the type of cuts we are experiencing in just the Marine Corps the union would circle the wagons, occupy City Hall, and refuse to allow it to take place. That is why our military gets results and our schools do not.

And Dale, I do not mistake legitimate criticism of the military as a lack of patriotism or lack of faith in the military. I welcome the criticism because I believe the military SHOULD be doing things better than everyone else. What I combat is direct attacks in an effort to hurt the military such as reinstitution of the draft.

MikeyA

are NOT TPS teachers in their second year. That's because, the union initiative known as the Toledo Plan, a system where first year teachers are evaluated by other teachers instead of administrators, has high standards. This paradigm-breaking program has been in effect for 30 years!

The reason the Toledo Plan exists is because, like you, despising incompetence, Toledo Federation of Teachers' President at the time, Dal Lawrence, hated having incompetent teachers teaching his students! Because administrators were overwhelmed or inept, hardly any of these terrible teachers were ever fired. In the 3 years before the Toledo Plan, exactly ZERO teachers were fired! Lawrence knew there had to be a better system to weed out those who did not belong.

For his trouble, at the time, and still to this day among many unionists, Dal Lawrence was (is) hated. Why should the unoin participate in firing dues-paying members? But Lawrence stood strong. He stated that if teaching is to ever become a respected profession, teachers had to a part of the system of either improving those who were poor practitioners, or getting them out of the profession. BTW...a LARGE number of those who are non-renewed to teach, or fired from teaching in Toledo, get jobs teaching elsewhere.

I know that this is anecdotal, but it really happened. When I did my student teaching at a Toledo-area Catholic school, the worst teaching I ever saw took place across the hall from me. This was in the Viet Nam era, and a person who had been drafted, had served his minimum time, and was honorably discharged was teaching in that room. He did NOT have a college degree. He was going to school at the time, and was teaching to supplement the grant money he received via the GI Bill. He was getting his degree in business. He had no plans to teach after he got his degree. Sometimes, I would look in the window of his door and see the paper wads flying so thickly that one could not see across the room. The "teacher" was sitting behind his desk, reading! In the rotation of classes, the students would come to my room after being in his. It would take me 5-10 minutes to settle them down each period because they were so wound up after being in his room. I worked with my UT advisor and my cooperating teacher, who was one of the best teachers I've ever seen, to get ideas for getting the students settled down more quickly.

I have seen some bad teaching since. And I've known teachers who were referred into the Toledo Plan, even veteran teachers with tenure, who were moved out of TPS because they wouldn't improve, even with expert help. None of them were worse than the person I saw in that Catholic school.

One can get the exact number, but there are about 30% less teachers in TPS now than there were in the year 2000. It coincides with the drop in student enrollment. Are there 30% less administrators? I don't know, but I doubt it!

Finally, you can talk all you want about the differing situations from one state to another meaning that we can't compare teachers in other states with those in Ohio. Yet, you won't accept the idea that because the learning environment is so different in urban centers than it is in the suburbs, exurbs, or rural areas, it is impossible to judge teachers by the same measures in all of these different settings? How hypocritical is that? If the teachers in these anti-union states cannot help their students to achieve as well on nationally-normed standardized tests your excuse is that the "metrics" are too different? On nationally-normed, standardized tests? I DID some of my pre-teaching work in Ottawa Hills and in the Bedford system. Are you really going to tell me that those situations are comparable to those of a central city school? Get real!

You can state that you are not sold on the charter school idea, but if your main thesis that unions are the main "anchor" holding back progress in education were true, these non-union schools would be thriving!. Guess what? The teachers in Ottawa Hlls are in the Ottawa Hills Education Association, affiliated with the Ohio Education Association, and the National Education Association, the largest teachers unions in the state and the nation! Guess what? The teachers at Grove Patterson and the teachers at the TTA are all members of the Toledo Federation of Teachers, afflilated with the Ohio Federation of Teachers and the American Federation of Teachers, the second biggest teachers unions in the state and in the nation! As a matter of fact, one of the TTA teachers is the Treasurer of the Toledo Federation of Teachers and an elected member of Ohio's State Teachers Retirement System Board of Directors!

You have nothing to support your opinon that teacher unions are the primary reason that traditional public schools don't work well. You blindly accept and repeat this vacuous, conservative mantra! This type of scapegoating is often used by school administrators who are the biggest roadblocks to change. They throw this fallacious statement around so that THEY don't have to change what THEY do!

I do, often, shake my head in wonder!

"What if a potential recruit has a sub 50 IQ, has no coordination, and shits himself daily? Does he get in? Because my 8th grade gym class shared the space with the special ed class and they were all allowed into public schools. They also had to take standardized tests that counted towards the district's cumulative score." Are you saying that 17% of the students in TPS are special needs? If not please cite the percentage to support your argument.

Again, I am not totally sold on Charter schools. I like that it breaks the paradigm, which is what we need. But I don't feel it is the final solution. If the choice were between more discipline at public schools or have more charter schools I will side with discipline every day of the week.

"charter schools are making us pay double for the same results." Yet it's still better challenge the paradigm for a solution than to keep down the same path of failure. ""The better a man is, the more mistakes he will make, for the more new things he will try. I would never promote to a top-level job a man who was not making mistakes...otherwise he is sure to be mediocre."
- Peter Druker "

MikeyA

While mistakes in traditional public schools are unforgiveable by Mikey's standards, mistakes are acceptable in charter schools by Mikey's standards! Are these mistakes acceptable to Mikey even over a period of a decade or more in operation? After 10, 12, 14 years in operation, why do charter schools continue to make more mistakes than are made in traditional public schools?

Mikey...would you fly in a plane run by charter school experimenters making more mistakes? I wouldn't! And isn't your reference to the famous Einstein quote appropriate to the State of Ohio continuing to pour money into the bottomless pit that constitutes Ohio's charter school movement? What a waste of your tax dollars and mine!

But, we're not talking about air travel here are we? We're not talking about a mistake taking a few hundred lives in one crash. We're only talking about educating thousands of Ohio's children. We're only talking about their futures and the futures of those who must share their world, after all! It's more like "death by a thousand cuts"!

And show me where I said Charter schools shouldn't be closed? I didn't. I said you can't lump them all in together because of their seperate focus. I also said that they break the paradigm, which is good, but I never saw them as a solution. And I never said traditional schools mistakes were unforgivable. I said progressively making more mistakes WITHOUT attempting to make corrections is unforgivable. The Unions and TPS advocate staying the course, but the course is leading off the cliff.

I seriously don't know why you keep brining them up. Yeah just trying them is a step in the right direction but no where did I say it's the solution.

"And isn't your reference to the famous Einstein quote appropriate to the State of Ohio continuing to pour money into the bottomless pit that constitutes Ohio's charter school movement?" You are defending a system that has been in decline for 40 years and you're calling one that actually attempts to end the cycle of failure a bottomless pit. LOL that's laughable. What you're defending is the bottomless pit because it's gotten progressively worse AND YOU DE
FEND IT
.
"It's more like "death by a thousand cuts"!" Funny that you mention cuts. Cuts are exactly what TPS needs. I also find it funny you won't ride in a plane flown by someone failed by a Charter school. The closest you will get in the free market as a pilot without a college degree is a cargo plane. And with the current competitiveness I'd venture to say that is only if you've been flying for over 30 years. SO, what college is going to let in a student who failed out of a Charter school?

MikeyA

Your hypothesis, which you again repeat here, is that your main concern in improving public education is the impact of unionized teachers. If unionized teachers were the problem non-union charter schools should, overall, be outperforming them. By all measures, clearly, non-union schools, both in Ohio and elsewhere, are NOT outperforming unionized, traditional public schools! I can only strongly suggest that you find a different cause or causes of a graduation rate in urban schools that we both find to be unacceptably low.

Mikey...you and I have reached a point on this issue where we will have to agree to disagree. The main difference between us is that I accept your sincerity to do your job -- which I highly respect -- as well as you can. You believe that I, and most of my former colleagues, are or were in our profession for the remuneration only.

You should really visit some schools. You could volunteer. My wife and I both volunteered at TPS schools before our accident put us in neck braces since December, Or, you could sub sometime to see what a "cake" job teaching is! Or, you could just visit and observe. They're your schools and mine, after all.

Dale, would you be surprised to find out my wife was a English, Health, and Phys Ed teacher before she got fed up with the system's lack of creativity, left for early childhood education where she achieved success but ultimately left that for retail administration where she has equally been successful.

My family has felt this issue and we feel passionately about it which is why I can respect your passion as well.

MikeyA

Mikey...I feel that we at least have established that we both care passionately about our world! I still suggest that you visit a school, however.

Your wife took the pathway so many others follow. It is sad that we lose so many good people from the teaching profession, but the statistics are clear.

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