Religious freedom at risk - check out Hilary speech

Freedom of religion is very different from freedom of worship. Communist countries have freedom of worship, as long as they are silent in the public square. Are we headed there too?

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Er, ancient god - sorry monotheists. Citing a source that advocates: "Changing lives, minds and communities through jesus christ" leaves you little credibility. Its sorta like citing the Washington times (reverend sun young moon, anyone? he's credible) or Fox News. Consider the source bible thumper.

there it is- freedom of worship. That is a shift in both her speeches and Obamas'

Hitlery Klinton is one of the most controlling, duplicitous, dictatorial people on the beltway today, and has been since Slick Willie set up shop in the White House. I don't trust her and I don't trust her motives. If Hitlery follows her voting record, her entire speech is a means to an end, and the end is tighter control of the citizens of the United States.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

That represents a two-minute two-fer. Maybe that's why the two minute warning was four minutes?

Snarkiness aside:
1) freedom of religion and freedom of worship have been used interchangeably for a long time. There may be a policy shift happening, or it may be language to help build connections out into the Muslim world, or may just be the wording chosen for this speech. It is an interesting point to pick up on - we'll see if there are ramifications up ahead...
2) Separation of church and state is an important issue. Chuck sites below his video:
"I remember when.......Every school had prayer and Bible studies" ~ and THAT scares me. When there is state-supported public education that has a mandatory religious component.
3) Absolute freedom of religious expression is not guaranteed under the constitution, either - he makes a horrible point of this. He cites things like incest, bigamy, and pedophilia as examples of why people don't have freedom to love as they choose, but there are laws of the land that supercede many religious practices (ironically, bigamy and pedophilia being, say, two that come to mind).
4) For someone going on about freedom, he certainly seems happy to limit someone else's freedom...

From Wombat2: 4) For someone going on about freedom, he certainly seems happy to limit someone else's freedom...

Give the man a cigar. All these people believe in freedom, so long as it's their idea of freedom. I don't believe this is about freedom of religion or the separation of Church and State. This is about control. Passing new laws controlling speech is going to be tough, but religion? Not so much. Especially if those first few laws don't suppress religion, just place a few common sense controls on only one religion. Islam, for instance. Who in their right mind could object to that?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

.Every school had prayer and Bible studies" ~ and THAT scares me. I guess it does God scares Socialists because they don't believe in him.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

Interesting. I'm a Christian - born and raised. So by your definition, I can't be a socialist. How's about that. Thanks for the clarification. But wait, Progressives = Socialists. But I'm not a progressive either. Huh.

I don't have a problem with prayer or bible studies, and engage in both (well, used to do bible studies). But I am disturbed if state-sponsored employees like teachers require their compulsory -charged students to engage in religious practice. That bothers me. A lot.

Wow, and right after you posted in the previous thread about people like McCaskey and me trying to paint in broad strokes and corner people into statements that we can refute (or, some of us may claim that we ask you to provide evidence for your claims). Here you go make another broad sweeping statement.

It's hard to believe anything you say because you flip back and forth, from a Liberal/Progressive, Socialists conversation to a non-socialists non-progressive conversation. Most of your reasoning leans toward the left, therefore I respond accordingly. As for painting that broad stroke I believe I said most not all. As for providing evidence, that’s only good when you and McCaskey find it and quote from the net, otherwise when others and I use it, it’s Right -Wing Obama conspiracy. Whats the point of flipflopping, do you know where you stand or what and who you real are, I do, and I don't wavier from it. I'm sure there are people out there that believe they are Christian's while being Socialists or both. There are also people out there that believe that there are many ways to Jesus or getting to heaven. Both are wrong in my opinion, but thats just me.Socialism and taking care of people is really government control, charity is the willingness of giving from us as individuals and charities, not this so called Socialists Hope and Change decepton which says we want to take what you have and redistrubute it among those that have less.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

I flip back and forth? Between what? Have I gone back on anything I've said? Have I misrepresented myself? Do I contradict myself? I have reconsidered my comments on previous posts when someone presents evidence or commentary that really makes me think hard about my beliefs, and I'm proud that I'm willing to say when I think I'm wrong. But I tell you, if you never reconsider your thoughts and beliefs based on evidence in front of you, you're a dogmatic fool.

And evidence "from the net" is a grab bag. A post from Soda Head carries little weight with me, and evidence from a peer-reviewed journal or a major news outlet carries much more weight. The more outrageous the claim, the more documentation it needs to support its assertion. Not all evidence is created equal. And making an outrageous claim, blame liberals, and then just citing a webpage means nothing. Build a cogent argument.

I just don't think you can accept mental models that aren't binary, black or white, all or nothing. If I have liberal leanings (which I do), but also have conservative beliefs, it doesn't mean I don't know what I stand for, it means I try to not define my thinking by my party affiliation but on individual, case-by-case basis. If you find someone who fits fully under one party umbrella, you have a lemming.

So, by the way, Ronald Reagan, George Bush senior and junior, they were Socialists to you too, then, right? I mean, based on what you say in your posts, they ran our governments that also took our wealth and redistributed it to those that have less. The only argument is the scale of that redistribution.

If I have liberal leanings (which I do), but also have conservative beliefs, it doesn't mean I don't know what I stand for,...

It means you're constantly having an argument with yourself. How do you decide what you're going to have for breakfast?

Face it Wombat, you flip and flop around so much users here are starting to refer to you as ping pong.

Right McCaskey?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

flip-flopping in what sense? specifically. please enlighten me. And then back it up with evidence, not smarminess. If not, then please elect to not enter an attempted adult conversation. If you're arguing with yourself because you can't reconcile what you believe, then perhaps get a tutor.

He probably ran outta Maker's and is just feeling snarly....


good insight! I am a flip flopper between a nice gin & tonic or a good after dinner bourbon?

I did run out of bourbon, and the liquor store is closed. At least in Ohio. I'll have to run across the border into Michigan.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack


Wombat's good...

Most of what you say here is progressive; you and McCaskey are the ones citing the binaries more often than not, so yes you contradict yourself. How is YOUR mental model a representation of the world outside of the net?
Just as an afterthought don't give me that mental model without the net (binary) crap, you filled your mental model thought process the same way I did, just from a different prospective. The point I believe your trying to make is to absorb all information from all sides and then make a decision on where we stand on that information. The question remains when you can’t see the truth you will continually ask for the truth in the form of empirical evidence. Take your own advice and go read some peer-reviewed articles on the subjects that you have questions about, that might help you figure out the truth. Oh! and you really need to go back and study Regan, as for Bush he hasn't spent nothing close in his term as to what Obama has spent in the first year. By the way, I would like to hear about what your mental model thinks about how Obama is trying to CHANGE (I call it take over) every industry we have in America. Also what do you think about Obama's collective salvation for everyone? Can't wait to hear your views on these two questions.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

In case you overlooked my response, here it is again.... What say you Wombat to the two questions purposed to you.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}


1) It's interesting. So you say that no, I'm the one who is binary, black'n'white. But I'm also a flip flopper. So you are insinuating that I make hard lines, but then cross them regularly back'n'forth. I'd love to see that supported by things I've written.
2) I never said don't pay attention to the net, or do research online. I pretty much said that all evidence is not created equal. I used to get into arguments with Starling over it re: research into secondhand smoke. Quoting something scientific from the New England Journal of Medicine carries more weight than Dr. Dan's conspiracy blog (note: made-up title). Your sources and evidence must match the argument you're trying to make. I don't care its medium, just its quality and relevance.
3) I don't think that Obama is trying to change every industry in America. I think he inherited a problem of unprecedented crap (two active wars and a looming great depression), and is trying to make the best of it. No president in recent memory has inherited this convergence of issues. And to think that it'd be solved in a year-and-a-half? Ridiculous. It's going to take years to recover. And Republicans are mad that he's pushing his agenda down their throats, and a lot of democrats are angry that he's not going far enough while he can.

I think that republicans are angry over his agenda, and have acted out in the worst and most irresponsible way by being obstructionists, hoping to throw wrenches in the works until elections this year. We elected them to lead, not throw up their hands and cry uncle. And democrats are just trying to cram agendas out as quickly as they can while they have majorities and the white house. And that means that they're passing rushed, cruddy legislation, that isn't as crafted or representative of the people as it should be. They are as guilty of partisanship as their colleagues. Hypocritical.

He's taken bold moves for sure through the first 1.5 years. I applaud the efforts to invest in green revolutions through the stimulus - it is a wave of the future, a source for jobs, and the R&D could be one linchpin for our economic future. And we are behind. I support universal healthcare, but am skeptical that the current legislation will do what it promises to do.
4) You would have to be clearer on your question of "Obama's collective salvation for everyone" beyond what do I think. I'm not looking to Obama for salvation, and no one I know is. We are looking for a leader who is not afraid to take risks, be bold, but also work to heal some great rifts in our leadership and in our community. And I think he's hitting some well, and missing others.

I think you’re correct on the obvious perceived agenda's of what each party is doing, its called politics. On the question of collective salvation, this is what Obama believes in. This is his Religion,he believes that we can't be saved as individuals but must be saved as a whole. It goes deeper than that ,but I'll wait for your response.
You use the word stimulus; explain to me how you throw money into the economy, and green revolution, when it’s not backed up with something.
You also mentioned you believe in Universal healthcare, you just stated that bills are passed and signed rushed through with cruddy legislation. How can you believe in Universal Healthcare then? Do you know that 68 doctors have dropped Medicare because of the healthcare bill? I f doctors keeping dropping out on accepting Medicare then who is going to be there to take care of the people that depend on them with that insurance.
You Sir, are a Progressive, stand up for what you believe in. You talk Progressive, you believe, and think Progressive. That is what I meant by flip-flopping, If you believe in Progressivism then so be it. You can state the obvious things or issues talked about, here, but to see beyond that reveals the real obvious agenda's of most in Washington.

Face it man Obama is a politician just like all the rest. He is just pushing his agenda as fast as possible while he has the chance. Who suffers from bad Presidential politics Obama, Bush, whoever, WE THE PEOPLE do.

"DTOM" {1776} " We The People" {1791}

Well...then this should bother you A LOT (but I'm guessing it wont):

Debate Ensues Over Teaching Islam In SchoolsWednesday, October 19, 2005

By Lyanne Melendez

Oct. 19 (KGO) -- Does teaching about Islam violate a child's right to be free from religion in a public school? One Contra Costa family thinks so. They claim their daughter's school lesson on Islam went too far. Their case was heard today before the ninth U.S District Court of Appeals

The California Department of Education says every public school has to teach world religion. Now the 9th U.S. Circuit court of appeals has to decide whether this school in Contra Costa County did just that -- teach Islam or did the school endorse it.

Three years ago Excelsior Middle School in the Delta community of Byron began teaching about Islam. It started as a lesson in tolerance toward Muslims. The case has now ended up in the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

Linda Lye, attorney, Byron Union School District: "The teacher at issue here was very creative and energetic and engaged her student's interests and tried to bring the subject matter alive. What the plaintiff is trying to do is attempt to get the teaching out about Islam out of the public schools."

For 8 weeks, the 7th grade history class focused on Islam.

The teacher encouraged students to pick Muslim names and dress up in Arabic-style clothes. The teacher even read a line from a prayer out of the Koran: "Remember Allah always and you shall prosper."

At that point, the Eklund family accused the school and the Byron Union School District of trying to indoctrinate their daughter, Samantha.

Ed White, attorney for the Eklund's: "If the school had used the state-approved book and taught about Islam there would be no problem. But here they went beyond that and crossed the line and started teaching Islam which they can't do whether it's teaching Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc."

The family even took their case before a federal judge and lost. But they appealed. Today a three judge panel heard their lawyer's arguments.

The court will decide if while teaching about Islam did the Byron Union School District endorse Islam. The issue has divided parents in Byron.

Debbie Bowersmith, parent: "With everything that is going on over there I don't think it's a good idea to be teaching our kids the different religions that are going on over there. I don't think they are benefiting from it."

Debbie Mapalo, parent: "We have so many different cultures in America now and I think kids have to be taught to be aware of the differences and to be accepting of the differences."

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

....I agree.... Wow, worlds collide....

I think learning about world religions is important ~ learning about Christian heritage, Judaism, Islam, Eastern Religions, etc. helps us understand not just our past but also the people we encounter in the world. And common understanding is a basis for more peaceful and productive society, in my opinion.

But it's about studying to understand, not promoting or endorsing a particular religious viewpoint. This sounds like it may go a bit over the edge in its zealousness... We'll see what the judges say....

From Lyanne Melendez via Zeitgeist: The teacher encouraged students to pick Muslim names and dress up in Arabic-style clothes.

... and in other news today eight year old Azizah Huriya managed to smuggle a home made pipe bomb into Excelsior Middle School today for Islamic Show and Tell time. Young Azizah aggressively displayed the device, a three foot length of two inch pipe decorated to resemble a marital aid, to his teacher before screaming Allie Akbar! and lighting the fuse. The device failed to detonate. Azizah and his family, Ward, June and Wally, are being held in a non-disclosed location pending criminal charges and possible deportation. School teacher Mrs. Landers and the entire class are undergoing psychotherapy for post traumatic stress.

Neighbor and family friend Eddie Haskel spoke with us this afternoon.

"Wally is okay, but if you ask me the youngest son, little Theodore, has always seemed troubled and a little confused about his identity. You know, of course, that the family couldn't get Theodore properly toilet trained until he started school."

Mr. Haskel went on to say that he has changed his career path from law school to Psychiatry with the goal of helping confused, troubled children like Azizah.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Do they have a new machine to control what people think? Most people who worship trees don't go around telling people they worship trees.

Politicians are latching on to brain-scanning’s potential for spotting which of their promises attract voters’ approval. EmSense, a “neuromarketing” company founded in 2004 by seven Massachusetts Institute of Technology graduates, has developed a lightweight EEG headset resembling an Alice band that may show how wearers react to speeches and debates. The company claims it can “accurately and objectively evaluate how voters truly feel, what captures their attention and how candidates can convey their platforms in the most effective and compelling ways”.

a or Medina, no churches or synagogues are allowed there. That s the subject I bring up when I talk to a carry -out owner about Islam.

If us Christians hadn't started the war with the Muslims hundreds of years ago, maybe we might have become friends.

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