TPS says cuts to be "ugly", help make TPS beautiful again

This past week, I threatened to bring back to life after the host switchover this past summer and make it safer from spammers and now the Toledo Public Schools needs it more than ever especially trying to toss an almost 1% income tax increase on all of us. I uploaded some of the older ideas. I was not able to recover anything, but it is now open for business for you to submit your own idea and vote and comment on the ideas that are posted on there. If you have a great idea, you can now submit it there. The Toledo Public Schools are welcome to use this as their unofficial brainstorming site to have staff and the public brainstorm ways to save money without raising taxes.

Read about how bad things will purportedly will get:

Remember this is still a lot of the same group that had no clue almost 3/4 a million was stolen, including some of the board members. Of course they know what the situation is now, right....

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Article published February 21, 2010
TPS' slow-walking
The Toledo Public Schools' plea for a new income tax won't have to share the May ballot with a separate tax measure from the City of Toledo. That absence of competition could improve prospects for the school tax proposal. Or it could allow skeptical voters to focus their attention - and ire - on the TPS plan.

Either way, voter approval of the tax measure faces long odds. To extend the racing metaphor, school officials are barely getting out of the starting gate in their efforts to sell it, and they don't have much time to catch up.

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

The teachers average $56000 for 9 months of work. That comes out to $6222.22 /month. Based on a 12 month year they would make $74666.66. Or almost $75,000
per year. Not bad pay compared to the average Toledoan
who averages $29,000 / year. I did the math you figure
where cuts can be made.

But those are good union wages wolfie, made by the hard working men and women who have fought to maintain a standard of living in the face of falling wages. If we lower the bar for teachers where will it all stop? Aren't our children worth the price wolfie? You wouldn't ask a union to take concessions would you? What about big education? It the banksters who are controlling this along with the illuminati.

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Isnt your wife still a teacher? Has she lowered her standard or is she 1 of those high paid teachers?

my wife is a teacher, at a parochial school, yes. your point?

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

Well Fred the women was cited
Submitted by wolfman on Tue, 2009-08-18 10:33.
Well Fred the women was cited not my brother I think alcohol was involved ...some things are out of our control. We talked about it last night NO WAY would he NOT have been hurt air bags or not. The size of the vehicle does matter. He would have been cut out of a econo box if he even lived thru it. Fred it still takes a certain amount of money to live the American lifestyle. Now that our Gov &Corp leaders have decided for us that competing will dollar-an-hour wages is good for us we are now seeing the affects. It may have taken a decade or two to see this but its here to stay. A few corporate leaders are now standing up for the United States but they are few and it takes a brave CEO to speak this.
Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:39pm EDT
DETROIT (Reuters) - General Electric Co Chief Executive Jeff Immelt said on Friday the United States needs to refocus its economy on manufacturing and exporting if it wishes to recover from a brutal recession.

"And another point Fred you make the comment that your wife is a teacher (parochial school substandard wages also). One can make the argument that your wife is making a wage that is reflective of unionized TPS. If not for the union teachers in the community your wife would be making substantially less. The Chinese teacher or the Indian teacher makes far less than even a parochial teacher in Toledo. So goes the debate over the auto workers that at Toyota and Honda were making comparable wages with the big three. Now that the new union workers are making half of the former workers with no defined pension do you think Toyota or a Honda will keep paying the old wage? No, we are seeing this now, a race to the bottom for workers that have no say about their circumstance. Now that the manufacturing workers are making half of what they use to do you think they can afford private schools for their children? On and on it goes but the CEO get the big pay raise and the bankers get the bonus no matter if it ruins the economy of the country."

~The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism~
Sir William Osler

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Your point about my wife's
Submitted by fred on Tue, 2009-08-18 15:11.

Your point about my wife's salary is pure speculation because there is no way to know what she would be able to command on the open market with a math degree and a Masters in Special Education.
We chose our professions for other reasons than the money.

Now what you keep ignoring is the fact that government spending under both republicans and democrats is out of control for social programs that are not working. That's my money going to services I don't support or rely on.

Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.

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Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

Wolfman just returned from viewing "WOLFMAN* at the Westfield mall. WOW his namesake sure puts on a show and I wasn't mugged by the unruly minorities as WSPD listeners have talked about all week!

76 thou is not too much for a college educated worker. When you consider the cost of education an the sacrifice they deserve it. What is with the hatred of unions? Now that union membership has dropped to less than 7% of private sector workers all workers are suffering the fate of no worker protection, the loss of a worker advocate (unions). The Toledo city is about to file bankruptcy in May caused by a economic collapse of wages and benefits from manufacturing job losses and wage erosion. Where we had a manufacturing base that supported 9 out of 10 jobs as middle class we now have a service economy that supports 1 out of 10 jobs that support a middle class. Toledo is left with a private sector who can ill afford its government or even itself when the population is buying low wage KIAs and imported Priuses. Next year we'll have Chinese cars here in Toledo to further ruin our tax base. Small business are closing because their customer base has dried up as every purchase is now for basic essentials.

Fred the Banksters and their economic manipulators sparked the recent economic collapse. You and your tea tolling Beckers never blame the the monied backers that control our government. Its always the socialists democrats. Do you know how foolish that sounds? What's happened to this country took over 20 years to get here. Those that know me know that I've been saying this stuff for 20 years. I didn't just wake up a year ago and put some dumb tea bag outfit on and parade around Washington blaming a Whitehouse newcomer for all that ills America...that's just dumb. When I say Banksters I really paint with a wider brush those that control both sides of government. I agree with much of the Tea parties concerns but as I predicted they will soon join forces with the corrupt Republican party and nothing will change just the faces in Washington.

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

First of all, teachers are professionals with college degrees. The "average teacher" you site has one or more advanced degrees!

Let's see...over the 34 years that I've been a teacher, the requirements to be a teacher and to remain licensed have increased. Most teachers spend a lot of their summers taking, AND PAYING FOR, required courses, or working at seasonal jobs. To extend the per month salary over the summer is ludicrous, since few can get part-time, seasonal jobs that pay what a college-educated professional should make.

We want TPS to have excellent teachers, but we don't want to pay them the same as they would make in...let's say...Temperance, for example. (Tom wants the best up North, not in Toledo!) TPS teachers already make significantly less than do their colleagues in most of the area schools, but, let's cut TPS salaries some more. We, in the education profession, are so often told that we should run more like a business. So we demand higher quality teachers, but we don't want to pay them a competitive salary. What business would stay in business with that philosophy?

There are things to like about the proposed tax increase. Only working people would pay it. The unemployed would pay nothing! Retirees would pay nothing! It is only 3/4 of 1%. Ohio state taxes alone were cut more than this over the last 4 years! The Federal income tax cuts are far more than this. Someone earning $50,000 per year would only have to pay about a dollar a day. And TPS hasn't passed a new operating levy of any type since 2002!

I'm not leaving my teaching job now, but I can retire any time, and I will within the next few years. Whom do you want to take my place? The leftovers after all of the best prospects go to school districts in the suburbs which pay more and where teachers who work no harder face less criticism because their students score better on standarized tests?

Just remember TT and Fred...wherever you live, the children there will still have to share this region, this nation, and this planet with children who grow up in urban areas. Do you really want these urban children to have less than the best obtain less than the best possible education? Who needs the best teachers more than these urban children?

I am tired of this if TPS were concerned about the children
they would be a more concerned about the quality of education they are providing. TPS keeps asking for more and more yet are not accountable for the quality they provide. Even if this levy should pass TPS will be asking for more before the end of the year,. When will this stop?

Best argument I've seen for homeschooling...sucking the public teet for 34 years and you still hang on for more...

Yeah ...some of us remember the threats to strike if you didnt get a 9% raise...

" let me clearly state my personal position regarding TPS's teachers salaries. I grew up in the inner city in a very modest household. My wife and I live frugally and our children are grown, successful professionals, and financially independent. We have a more than adequate income."

Time to wont be missed...

And this come from a union guy to any TPS teacher who reads this........

No I'm not going to vote for another TAX.

Threaten to go on strike again and you are ALL FIRED.

"for the children" my ass......

Time for toledo to insert "no strike" clauses into their contracts.....if it's good enough for the building trades it's good enough for PUBLIC employees....

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

TFT has not had a strike since 1978!!

Most of the talk of a strike comes from teacher haters, not from the TFT.

I was in business for 15 years with my father before I started teaching. None of you address teacher quality. When Armond Hammer was a billionaire mogul, he professed one way he ran successful businesses. He paid more for the professionals who worked for him than did his competition. He hired their best away.

You want me to leave. I'll leave when I'm not enjoying what I do. I love teaching!! When I do leave, who wants to take my job? Teach in an urban district. Work as hard or harder than you would in the suburbs or exurbs. Make less money than your suburban colleagues. Be constantly criticized by people who would never do what you do for a living.

Who loses in this scenario? The students of TPS. Not one thing you teacher haters write addresses teacher quality and the quality of the education TPS children receive.

not a teacher hater or a education hater but you can't ask us to not hate the idiot administrators that use money for anything but education. why should we pass this levey if we know that they will only use the money for stupied stuff like more investigations, golf parties (yes we all know the truth), keeping sexual predators and not listening to the public, etc. etc. if they want to save money then fire some the idiots and get rid of so many administrators that are not needed.

this is what I said to the blade:
But promises are not enough for some Toledoans.

Peter Lore, who has lived in the city for more than 20 years, said he needs to see some change in the schools and more information about the budget before he says OK to his taxes going up.

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"I have trouble believing them," he said. "It's a good-old-boy network and they protect their own. I really think the voters should say, 'Until you get your act together and let us know where every penny is going, we're not going to vote for a levy.'•"

Mr. Lore, who said he took his children out of TPS, believes there are too many ongoing issues - such as the investigation into alleged thefts by former TPS chief Business Manager Dan Burns and the resignation of Leverette Middle School Principal Steven Riddle amid allegations that he exchanged inappropriate texts with a minor - to trust the district.

What TPS is going broke! Glad they just spent all that money on new buildings.

If teachers were paid on bonuses based upon how many of their students passed the proficiency I think we'd see MANY changes within our schools.

If the board set the budget 5 years out we'd see MAJOR changes in how the money is spent.

That's the beauty of charter schools when compared to public schools. When charter schools fail we can close them and open a new one. When public schools fail we are asked to throw more money at the problem.

If you are unsure as to how you should vote on this levy you should google the price of DC public schools and how well they do.


Ohio has the worst charter school law in the nation. Therfore, Ohio has the worst charter schools in the nation. Few are working well. Look at the statistics. If you looked at the charter schools as one large school district, that district would have worse overall state "grade cards" than any school district in this state.

Few charter schools close. Most that have closed did so because of fiscal mismanagement. You can count on one hand the Ohio charter schools which have closed because of a poor academic record, even though a high percentage are in academic emergency year after year.

I agree that TPS has a bloated central administration! When the TPS Board had a chance to bring someone in from outside of the district, who had a background in the military, I was really excited. Military people usually have good ideas about line and staff relationships in large organizations. I felt that this man could come in and reorganize the central administration, streamline it, make it more efficient, and save money. But we ended up with an insider who is not capable of thinking "outside the box", and seems to be incapable of being proactive.

Most of the most critical posters here (note, I didn't state "all"), would not vote for a school levy for any district at any time. They look for excuses.

The bottom line is that the top administrators still keep their jobs and still get their money, whether school levies pass or not. It's teachers, school administrators, paraprofessionals, secretaries, etc., who lose their jobs when there are cuts. These are the people who deliver the services directly to the students. Therefore, the students get larger classes and worse overall services. This happens most frequently in urban school districts. To me, it's a civil rights issue. We continue to strangle the schools which have the most needy students, while more affluent schools, whose students, overall, are less needy, get whatever they need to educate their students well. Children pay for the ineptitude of some adults and the parsimony of others.

I agree that most charter schools aren't doing well but you must also concede that many of them are accepting the students who've been pushed out of the traditional schools.

20 years ago the California school system was viewed as one of the best in the nation. Today it's quickly becoming one of the worst. It's so bad in fact that a month ago the LA Times ran a story about how the LA school district is moving to charter schools. This is one of the most progressive school systems in one of the most progressive states. The paradigm is changing because the way we've done business is not working.


If California's charter school law is written as badly as the one in Ohio, the charter schools there will fail, too.

The truth is that the teacher's union in Toledo HAS broken a huge paradigm. TFT was the first teachers' union anywhere to participate in the firing of poorly performing teachers, even those with tenure. The Intern-Intervention Program, or Toledo Plan, as it is commonly called, is a national award-winning program. Because of it, TPS has the best trained teachers of any school district in the nation.

BTW...The State of California patterned their statewide entry level teacher program after the Toledo Plan. And Dal Lawrence has consulted with several school districts in California to help them formulate their entry year programs. Mr. Lawrence has also been to many other school districts in the United States and even Mexico! Toledo has been visited by educators, teachers and administrators alike, from Australia and South Africa, to investigate the Toledo Plan in person!

And what has breaking the paradigm done for TFT? TFT is still criticized as though we were living in the past. Among teacher organizations, TFT is looked upon as being on the cutting edge of school reform.

Other initiatives started by TFT are the very successful Reading and Math academies in TPS. These academies have resulted in test scores for the elementary students rising high enough to raise the overall "score card" for the entire school district. But, this will all be lost if cuts necessitate eliminating these successful programs.

Remember, these "score cards" were purposely designed to "prove" that traditional public schools -- in urban areas -- are failures. The score cards have been changed slightly for the better over the past few years. Under these same measurements, the charter schools score terribly!

As far as the charter schools taking the worst students, there are no studies that show this to be true. Besides, charter school advocates, including Toledo's own Sally Perz, the mother of Ohio's charter school law, and who, along with her daughter profited greatly from jobs related to charter schools in Ohio, guaranteed that charter schools would succeed where traditional schools had failed. It was a ruse..flim-flam...a cold, calculated, cynical raid on the public's money.

What works? The Reading and Math Academies work. The Intern-Intervention Program, or Toledo Plan, works. Will they survive these fiscally challanging times?

"The State of California patterned their statewide entry level teacher program after the Toledo Plan" And their schools are failing too, hence why they are going to charter schools. I wouldn't brag.

"The truth is that the teacher's union in Toledo HAS broken a huge paradigm. TFT was the first teachers' union anywhere to participate in the firing of poorly performing teachers, even those with tenure." That's the difference between a teacher and a voter on this issue. A voter sees a paradigm change when students pass the proficiency in larger numbers. A teacher sees a paradigm change when teachers are held accountable.

"Remember, these "score cards" were purposely designed to "prove" that traditional public schools -- in urban areas -- are failures." Just like a liberal that when the facts don't help your case attack the way the facts are gathered.

"As far as the charter schools taking the worst students, there are no studies that show this to be true." You don't need a study it's common sense. A student most likely to leave a traditional school is one who feels they have been failed by the traditional school. DUH! I suppose there is no studies to show me that hungry students are more prone to eat in the lunchroom.

Dale you can't fool me on these issues. I'm not that dumb. I was not a product of the Toledo Public School system.


First of all, I do NOT oppose all charter schools. In Ohio, where their proponents guaranteed that charters could do a better job than traditional public schools, they DO WORSE!! This is using the "score cards" that you, obviously, believe are so fair. It is YOU who do not want to face the facts! After a decade of this failed experiment, it is clear that charter schools, of and by themselves, are NOT the answer to Ohio's educational problems.

Teaching urban children has a different set of challenges than teaching in the suburbs or exurbs. My first student teacher teaches in Ottawa Hills. He watched me teach before he took over the class. He appreciates what I do, but then, he trained with these challenges. He understands the difference between where he trained and where he now teaches. I know someone else well who started teaching in Toledo, and has taught most of his career in Ottawa Hills. He, also, appreciates what I, and other urban educators, do! It is HE who comments about how much better he became as a teacher, as viewed by people like you, when he changed schools. HE'S THE SAME PERSON!! SO IS MY FORMER STUDENT TEACHER! BTW...for many years this man was the President of the Ottawa Hills Education Association. Yes, Virginia, Ottawa Hills teachers are in a union!! Both of these teachers work no harder now than they did teaching in TPS. Why do their students in Ottawa Hills score so much higher on standardized tests? Again, it is YOU who are not realistic!

One of the constant criticisms of teachers is that they can never be fired. In TPS, this hasn't been true for 30 YEARS!! The teachers' union participating in the firing of teachers, instead of defending every teacher to the last, IS a paradigm break that most Toledo citizens favor. Most just don't know about it! Again, you are out of touch with a reality that does not fit YOUR IDEOLOGY!

Of course, you fail to comment about the Elementary Reading and Math Academies in TPS, which are initiatives started by TFT, because THEY ARE SO SUCCESSFUL!! They don't further your argument, so you ignore them! Would it really hurt you to admit that SOME...ANY...good things happen in TPS??

Start High School is rated a school of excellence by those wonderful state "score cards" that you love so much! It is a TPS school. The teachers are all TFT members. The union representative at Start is a very strong union person. She is also on the TFT Board of Directors. I wonder how such a strong union building could do so well, better than innumerable suburban and exurban schools, while still facing the challenges of an urban high school? My answer would be, well-trained, dedicated teachers! I'm sure you'll find some other explanation that fits your anti-union paradigm! Breaking paradigms cuts more than one way!

Dale don't get me wrong I do appreciate you. You are obviously a teacher who cares. The problem is there is a large portion of your colleagues who either stopped caring or are ineffective.

I am not someone who is a huge proponent of Charter Schools. In fact I'm becoming more and more in favor of just closing down the schools who fail and giving their students vouchers to attend private schools because private schools have done much better and on less money. Both of these support what I do believe is that the system is failing and the only way to stop it is to TOTALLY change our thinking and approach.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm NOT blaming TFT, and I am very anti-union. I blame the TPS board. I also hold the parents accountable because more and more they view schools as a babysitter.

And my wife was a teacher. She holds 3 degrees. She, like you, was one who cared. However the ammount of times my job has moved me has kept her from remaining a teacher.


that's too bad about your wife's career. Are there ever any opportunities for her to do any civilian work on base that would make use of all that education and training?

When we married she worked at the Child Development Center on base which is for early childhood education. She could always work there.

However when we were in Michigan and our 2nd time in Virginia she worked at Pier 1. When I was going to EMU she was at the Pier 1 on Reynolds and later became an assistant manager at the one on Monroe St. She transferred to one in Virginia when I was in training there. She really enjoyed it and was well on her way to becoming the manager of her own store.

However there isn't much retail in our immediate area. But luckily a job came open at the exchange on base. She is the personal assistant to the head of retail here. They've offered her the manager's position for the exchange but with the baby coming she's unsure if she will take it because it means she would work nights and weekends, which she doesn't now.

I don't doubt that when I return from Afghanistan that she will be working a different and better job and she really loves retail. I wish she were a Marine because she's THAT good. I will be due to receive orders when I come back so she may have to move jobs again.


I appreciate your words about me. I was in retail business for 15 years before I started teaching. I met thousands of people from all walks of life. Overall, I don't know of any vocation that has a higher percentage of dedicated, effective practioners than in the teaching profession, with the possible exception of nursing. There are what I call "punch in-punch out" teachers. But, there are so many more of that type of worker in most other occupations.

Like so many, you equate an "effective" teacher with the test scores their students produce, without taking any other factors into consideration. Most teachers at our lower scoring schools care. Most teachers at our lower scoring schools are as effective as possible given the circumstances of their assignment.

Are private schools really more successful than traditional public schools? In cities like Cleveland and Milwaukee, where extensive private voucher programs have allowed large numbers of disadvantaged students to attend private schools, the test statistics comparing the students who left the traditional public schools with the students who stayed, prove that the private schools do no better than do the traditional public schools. Yet, the myth of private school superiority continues to thrive. Why?

Private schools appear to do better because of the different rules under which most operate. Private schools can turn down applicants. I have 8th Grade students every year who tell me that they're going to a private high school, but are denied admission. Traditional public schools cannot turn down students before they enter the building. In addition, once attending a private school, persistently disruptive students can be removed at lightening speed, compared with the same students attending traditional public schools. The concept of "due process" must be strictly followed in traditional public schools, while in private schools, students can be removed for only one serious violation of rules. And, in traditional public schools, the disruptive student is not kicked out completely. That student, after several due process hearings and several attempts at "intervention" to try to improve behavior, still attends a traditional public school, sometimes even the same school where they were not successful, in a special classroom where the teacher is specially trained to deal with the severely disruptive behaviors the student exhibits, with a much smaller class size, and with a para professional aide to help in the room.

Finally, but maybe the most important point of all, all private school parents must "sign on" to being full partners in the education of each of their children. Don't get me wrong. Most parents of students in traditional public schools are full partners with teachers, too. But it's not required, as it is in private schools. There have been many successful public schools in areas of poorly performing traditional public schools. Invariably, they share two things in common with private schools: parents must "sign-on as full partners with the teachers, and they can more easily kick out chronically disruptive students.

Most teachers are ready, willing, and able to have their students succeed, in most school situations. When and if we can get a higher percentage of parents to take a full partnership role in the education of their children, more students will succeed.

Of course, there is one caveat. We must not strangle the poorest school districts, which are mostly urban school districts in this country, by severely cutting funding to our neediest schools with our neediest students.

The fact is that traditional public schools are really too successful. Almost all students who go through tradtional public schools who are eager to learn, become successful. This irritates to no end many wealthy, socially conservative Americans. Such conservatives hate success stories like those of Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, not because they both became President of the United States, but because they were both poor kids, who were able to surpass so many rich kids from their same generation. There are millions of stories similar to those of Obama and Clinton in thousands of professional, technical, and business fields in this nation.

Many wealthy, socially conservative people want to destroy traditional public schools so that only children from rich families can get a high quality education in elitist private schools. These cynical elitists want to "turn back the clock" more than one hundred years, to a time when only rich kids were able to get a high quality education. They want to perpetuate the already out of proportion advantages their children have over those of lesser economic standing, by destroying the best democratizing force in our nation today, traditional public schools. So-called charter or "community" schools are one tool being used to do this. By syphoning money away from traditional public schools, those are weakened. By creating a system of inferior schools (the charter schools), the children attending those schools are dismissed. And concurrently, at least in Ohio, great profits can be made by "for profit" companies running the charter schools, most often funded by wealthy individuals and/or large corporations.

Americans had better awaken soon. Should we demand a high quality educational opportunity for all of our children? Of course! But to do so, we must raise the priority of traditional public education to the same level as public education has in the countries with which we compete. Is India becoming more competitve on the world market because charter schools now operate there? NO!! Are private schools mushrooming all around India? NO!! Do traditional public schools in India have to beg local taxpayers for money to run high quality institutions of learning? NO!! And you can substitute 15 or 20 other nations where India is used.

Supporting traditional public education is not merely the right thing to do, it is the patriotic thing to do. Americans cringed when we heard that thousands of our soldiers were sent into battle in Iraq without protective equipment that should have been made available to them. Yet we send our young people into a global market partially disarmed when compared to the children in other nations where education is not just said to be a high priority, but is funded as though it is a high priority. Those who want to economically strangle traditional public schools are among the least patriotic Americans of this generation! The saddest part is, if they are successful in destroying traditional public education, the entire nation will suffer. We are suffering already, as this generation watches our high tech jobs go the same way that our manufacturing jobs went over the last generation. Money for running traditional public schools is not an expense, it is an investment. Many studies prove that it is the best investment a nation can make. Just ask India!

there are many things wrong with a lot of your statements. (1) The Toledo Plan does not fire "poorly performing teachers. The teacher it does fire are the minority teachers, black, hispanic, male and the older teacher who is new and starting a new career. The only teachers who are fired are teachers who have a problem with sexual misconduct with students. Tell me when was the last time a "poorly performing" teacher was fired in TPS.
(2) Funding for "inner city" schools" is adequate. Actually more than adequate. A TPS student sitting in a seat is provided $11,000 per student for education. That is quite adequate and is more than it takes to educate a student in the suburban communities. Plus the school gets extra money for the special education student, plus "inner city" schools receive all kinds of grant monies. The also receive something called Poverty Based Assistance. This extra money does not reach the student but reaches the pockets of the well paid teachers.
(3) TPS runs the largest Charter School in Toledo, it is called Phoenix Academy. Not only is it "syphoning" tax payer's money out of TPS but it also syphons off TPS students that TPS does not want in the classroom. (4) Obviously you don't know what a "Due Process Hearing" is.

The Toledo Plan does NOT target any group for elimination from the teaching profession. No independent study, no govermental agency with oversight, has ever found this to be true. You're like the dictators in George Orwell's book, 1984, Ms. Page! You are trying to say a lie long enough so that people will think that it is the truth. It is so destructive to make such a charge over and over again! I would NOT run for, nor accept a leadership position in, any organization that would discriminate in this way.

You are also changing the charge that you've made before about veteran teachers who are placed into the "Intervention" part of the Toledo Plan program. About a year ago, you stated that no teachers are "placed into" the Intervention Program. I pointed out on that thread that I knew personally of three teachers who were then in the program. Now you've changed this charge against the Toledo Plan. When a person is placed into Intervention, the primary goal is to get them to improve enough to continue teaching. If that person does NOT improve, she or he may be allowed to resign, may retire if they meet the requirements, or are fired. Most either resign or retire. The important thing is that the teacher either improves, or they are no longer teaching TPS kids. And, of course, Ms. Page, you know this, too. BTW...many of those who resign from TPS get jobs teaching in other school districts, in private schools, or in charter schools, which have lower standards for their teachers than does TPS! Since this is a personnel issue, it is confidential. I do know, personally, of one teacher who had been in "intervention", and retired last year.

Using the overall funding numbers are extremely misleading! And you know this! This number includes the costs of those with educational challenges which require smaller class sizes and additional adults to help them learn up to their potential. Among these, are medically fragile students who can require extra nursing services and a personal, paraprofessional assigned just to assist that one student. Such costs drive up the average per pupil costs astronomically! And you know this, too!
Do suburban or exurban schools have such students? Rarely. Why not? Mostly because parents of medically fragile children know that TPS has more experience with such students, and in smaller school districts, many of the special services -- required by law -- are paid for through county educational service centers, not by the individual school district. I want these servies ended? Absolutely not! But don't blame TPS because of the high costs to provide them. Other city school districts such as, Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Akron, and Dayton, face the same challenges and costs per pupil. And, of course, Ms. Page, you know this, too!

The Phoenix Academy is extremely successful! If you think that it is a school which is part of a system of discrimination, I suggest that you confront Mr. C.J. Washington directly. Mr. Washington has been working at Phoenix since, or almost since, its inception. He has seen how Phoenix tranforms students' lives for the better. In all of the years he has worked there, he has never once informed me that this wonderful program is being misused. But, he's the expert; talk to him.

I want every individual student to have the best opportunity to reach her or his potential. I care about all of the students I teach. So often, Ms. Page, our differences occur because you and others champion the cause -- only -- of the most disruptive students, and ignore the educational needs of the vast majority of TPS students who come to school eager to learn. You speak strongly for the disruptive few. I speak strongly for the productive many! I will continue to fight for a safe, secure, nurturing learning environment for all of our children. IMHO, that's what most parents want, too!

an independent study of the Toledo Plan after the firing's of 2003. The study was done in response to the public outcry concerning a large number of firings of minorities, minorities that included, blacks, hispanics, white men and older new hires. The study did not find discrimination based on race but did find discrimination based on age. The study did also state that Toledo has a long history of racial issues that gives the perception of discrimination.

Although the study did not find discrimination based on race, TPS went on to settle two discrimination cases based on race of a black female and a hispanic male rather than take it to court.

The report is called the Kaboolian Report done by a Harvard professor.

This is the answer to part one of your dissertation. Did you not know of this report? I can get you a paper copy or a CD so that you can read it.

Also in regard to the Toledo Plan being implemented in Cali, Mexico, Africa and other places, it is probably being implemented in the way it was intended. A vehicle for peers to evaluate peers and get rid of "bad teachers." It would work in Toledo if it was implemented correctly. The only "bad teachers" that are fired in TPS are teachers who have sexually abused students. Again, when was the last time a teacher was fired for performing poorly?

Thank you for pointing out that this independent report to which you refer found there to be NO RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN TPS VIA THE TOLEDO PLAN!!

Once again, if a teacher in the Intervention Program does not improve, she or he may resign, retire, or be fired. Most, wisely, choose to resign or retire. They no longer teach in Toledo, period! But man of them DO teach in other schools after leaving TPS. Since these are personnel matters, the details are confidential.

In many places where the Toledo Plan has been implemented, Dal Lawrence has helped both the union leaders and the local administrators to get it right. You and the other "nattering nabobs of negativity" just can't admit that TPS and/or TFT gets ANYTHING right!!

1984 includes the premise that if you tell a person that they know something long enough they will begin to believe that they actually know this.

All through your dissertation you tell me what I know, when you don't know me or know what I know. I do know of a teacher that was put into intervention three or four times and each time the prinicipal of the school she was placed at recommended firing. Each time she was given another chance to prove her mettle as a TPS teacher. Each time she failed. On more than one occasion the kindergarten students had her crying in class. One time they locked her out of her classroom. She had absolutely no classroom management skills. Yet she was given chances over and over again. I couldn't figure out why this teacher was given these many chances to ruin the educational process of students just beginning to get accustomed to the class room setting. Well low and behold, the answer layed in her historical background. Her mother was a current teacher and her father was in the administration! So much for the Toledo Plan and there are more stories where that one came from.

What does C.J. Washington have to do with anything, didn't he also work for the JJC? Isn't he high up in the union, isn't that how cushy jobs are obtained. The point I was making about Phoenix Academy is that you stated that charter schools were "syphoning" off money from the public schools. Well, not only is Phoenix Academy a TPS charter school and syphoning off public dollars they are also syphoning off
TPS students. TPS is down to 26,000 students (and probably less) is no longer a "large urban district" because of policies and proceedures used to get rid of "disruptive" students.

I look forward to the day that TPS only educates the student who comes to school to learn. The TPS classrooms will be empty, as parents want what is best for their children and want the best education possible for them, taught in an environment that is good for children not just good for the adults in the system. An education that reaches all children where they are not where the system thinks they should be.

Unless TPS changes it's philosophy on children soon there will be no TPS schools. There will be charter, private, homeschools- whatever parents think will be good for their child. Since you have made a good living off of TPS and could retire, I don't see you being concerned that your system is losing student every day.

And you should know that.

When I state that you know things, I am fully aware that you are familiar with statistical evidence. You just won't let facts get in the way of our opinions!

I will not comment on individual cases, period. Such unproved anecdotes are extremely misleading, anyway. I do know that the spouse of one of TFT's former officers and the son of one of my mother's best friends when I was already on the TFT Board of Directors, were eliminated from teaching TPS children via the Toledo Plan. There...two pieces of anecdotal evidence to your one!

Mr. Washington spent most of his career as a high school science teacher at DeVilbiss and Rogers High Schools. He also grew up in the South in the 1950s and 1960s. He is a premier example of public education giving a motivated person the means to become an exemplary citizen of this nation. He once ran against Dal Lawrence for President of the Toledo Federation of Teachers. Later, he served as the Vice President for the Toledo Federation of Teachers, and is currently an elected member of the TFT Board of Directors. I have often consulted him on issues facing TPS. He is someone I trust for advice and counsel.

Again, you purposely misstate my words. One thing I said was that I care about the teaching of ALL of the children who attend TPS. IMHO...TPS loses a lot more students who come from families concerned about the students who are chronically disruptive, even dangerous, than TPS loses the chronically disruptive students. Most of the parents of school-aged children think safety first.

And, I am not talking about every disruptive student, here. Interventions to modify unacceptable behavior is an ongoing process in every classroom. I am referring to those who need greater intervention than we can provide in the regular classroom. And I want to have them get the best possible learning environment, too. I can't remember the last school year I didn't "mainstream" special needs students into my classroom.

And you make it seem as though only Toledo is losing population. All of Ohio's city schools have lost population. Dayton, for example, has a higher percentage of eligible students in charter schools than does any other city district in Ohio.

Finally, the length of time I have taught or will teach into the future is not the issue here. Long after I retire, until the day I die, I will always champion strong, well functioning traditional public schools. I will also support well documented, research based innovations that work to better teach our children. I know that, in your own way, you care, Ms. Page. Don't ever believe or purport that I don't care!

While I agree with most of what you've posted here, I am troubled by reports of misbehavior by the TPS staff commonly called "THE FAB FOUR." You posted that you would not comment on a particular individual case but could you at least confirm that you are aware or heard of rumors about THE FAB FOUR?

Statements made are the opinion of the writer who is exercising his first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and are generally permitted.

You and I have a shared vision on most political issues. I would be glad to comment upon this topic, but I have never heard anything about THE FAB FOUR. Might I know them by a different description?

Please keep in mind that I am a full-time classroom teacher. I do NOT have regular release time. I am NOT on an assignment that takes me into different schools. I do NOT go to the Administration Building on a regular basis. I am somewhat (and very happily) isolated in my classroom. I do love what I do!

the parts that only apply to a small segment of my post. Such as "Thank you for pointing out that this independent report to which you refer found there to be NO RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN TPS VIA THE TOLEDO PLAN!!" Discrimination is discrimination,and discrimination was found. I stated discrimination against minorities, ie. black, hispanic, males and age (the older new teacher), not just racial discrimination. All you see when I post is race, race, race. Too bad that your lens is so narrow, how does that affect students that you teach.....

You reaffirm yet again, that no racial discrimination was found! As far as the age issue, I am confident that, since this report was published, several years ago, TPS has been sensitive to improving in this area.

I will be crystal clear. I oppose all forms of discrimination. I choose to be a member of the Standing Committee for Civil Rights for the Ohio Federation of Teachers, and I am honored to serve on that committee.

also purposely misstated what I said. At no time did I say racial discrimination. What I said was discrimination against minorities. Minorities in the TPS system is not only based on race. I have said "black, hispanic, male and age." But you continue to twist my comments....

I know you have heard of the "Fab Four." You aren't that busy in your

Don't you know purnhrt cares about anybody being discriminated against.

Your thoughtful on topic on point comments serve to incite rather than unite....whatever she thinks that is supposed to mean.


I don't recall saying that Toledo is losing population, what I said was TPS is down to 26,000 students. These students did not leave the city they left TPS for charter, private and homeschools. Some just dropped out. I believe 10 years ago TPS had 40,000 students.

Of course Toledo is losing population but that is not the topic being discussed.

I was referring to the city school districts in Ohio losing population.

Dayton has lost the highest percentage of school-aged students to charter schools, even though Lucas County had the program first. The statistics are readily available.

IMHO...this has become a civil rights issue. Charter schools are a win-win-win for rich conservatives in Ohio. Ohio's law is so bad and the oversite is so weak that Ohio's charter school system is a parallel system of inferior schools to that of the traditional public schools.

IMHO...this is by design. Traditional public schools have been so successful over the years in giving opportunities to disadvantaged youth like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, that the wealthy conservatives had to find some way to destroy traditional public education. Charter schools attract our most needy children to these abysmal schools. Thus, the opportunity for these children to succeed is greatly diminished. Get it yet? Less competition for high tech, professional jobs, and business executive positions in the future for the children of rich parents!! Win number one!

But its better than that for the rich conservatives. They now can create corporations to run the charter schools in Ohio for a profit!! Win number 2!

And if the money siphoned away from the traditional public schools weakens them further, even less competition for the children of rich conservatives!! Win number 3! Win-win-win!

You state, " Charter schools attract our most needy children to these abysmal schools. " Why do you think this is?

Plain and simple salesmanship! The charter schools in Ohio make promises they cannot fulfill. They treat parents nicely. They literally "give" good grades to the students. Students are happy. That makes parents feel good. The problem is, most of Ohio's charter schools DON'T TEACH ANYTHING!!

A friend of mine, a retired Toledo teacher, answered an ad several years ago for teachers to teach in a local charter school. He thought that this would be a great way to supplement his retirement income, so he applied and was immediately accepted. He lasted there one day! He stated to me, after the experience, that the school children were totally out of control. There was no discipline plan; therefore there was no teaching and learning going on. It just made him sick!

Most of Ohio's charter schools demand neither academic achievement nor proper behavior. The are like a modern version of the old time "medicine men". They promise that their educational elixir will cure what ails students. It doesn't!

Most of Ohio's charter schools are run by sincere amateurs or cold, cynical profiteers. The former can't do a good job. The latter couldn't care less!

BTW...because the Phoenix Academy is chartered by the Toledo Public Schools, the money that goes to run Phoenix does help TPS. The students are all still TPS students, and the money belongs to TPS.

""""They treat parents nicely. """"" What a novel idea!

Every parent deserves to receive respectful treatment at any school, as long as the parent is respectful, too. In the charter schools this "niceness" is part of a strategy. Most have a special room with refreshments for parents. They want parents to stay away from observing what is actually happening in the school, because what's happening is so bad.

As a parent and grandparent myself, I am much more concerned with whether my child or grandchild is learning what she or he needs to be successful, than I am with getting a cookie or a cup or hot cocoa at school! I expect children to be in a safe environment conducive to learning enough for students to compete in a global marketplace.

As a taxpayer, I expect to have funds expended properly. There have already been charter schools that have closed because of fiscal mismangement. Some of these small, individual schools have been found by the Auditor of Ohio to have improperly spent much more money from their one little school budget, than Dan Burns is accused of stealing from two large school districts combined!

is not the same as theft. TPS improperly spends money on a daily basis, one good example is the millions of dollars that have been used to keep the small schools at Scott and Libbey. Another good example is the money spent to keep the Toledo Plan in existence.

In the cases where Ohio's charter schools have been investigated, funds have often been found to be mysteriously missing, much like what happened in TPS and in Cleveland. If the Auditor of the State of Ohio were to do a thorough job of auditing ALL of Ohio's charter schools, I have no doubt that she would find multi-millions of taxpayer dollars stolen. But, she is a Republican. And, in most states, the Republican Party has pushed the charter school option very, very, hard. I'm sure that she's been pressured to ignore Ohio's charter schools as much as possible. But, no, I can't prove this.

The funds that are generated by the Phoenix academy belong to the academy and not TPS. TPS had a contract that expired. It did require the academy to turn over any unused funds. So in a way it was correct in the past.

If you had been to board meetings or viewed them at WGTE, you would know that the academy has control of their finances and were in talks (don't know the status at this time) about contracting services from TPS. Phoenix is under no obligation to use any services from TPS. They recently purchased their own building without consulting TPS. So TPS is now losing the rental income they were receiving as well.

As to much of what has been discussed by Pertcheck, it is almost all anecdotal such as his comments about Charter schools. I know several that are exemplary. BTW - TPS has made many promises to parents trying to lure them back. And they too are not good at keeping those promises.

Regarding the Toledo Plan - there was a review done. The consultant was not independent in thought or in relation to TPS. She worked for Harvard and was part of the process of the award for the Toledo plan from the Kennedy School of Government. (I won't discuss the award process which did not include conversations with those critical of the Toledo Plan) She did find problems (some 14 recommendations none of which have ever been implemented) with age issues but was unable to make definitive statements on this issue - again we have to wonder. The program dates to 1981 and is in need of major changes.

As to comments that no racial discrimination was found - it is true that the consultant came to that conclusion. However, there have been allegations made that the consultant did not receive all the pertinent information that would have been needed to make that determination. This came as a result of a law suit won by the plaintiff, but the trial results are under gag order. Wonder why? I have never believed the results, although agree with many of the recommendations, and many know that the Sanders' administration was ethically challenged especially when it came to providing accurate information.

Parents should have choice. Traditional public schools should not have a monopoly on the education process. Parental choice is one of the few factors that has driven any change in TPS or in the public education establishment. If they can not provide a quality product, parents should be able to find a school that does. It is disingenuous to infer that parents can't or shouldn't make that choice. And one of the factors has to be effective parent-school communication. TPS is strongly lacking when it comes to parent-school communications - there is no support by the board or administration and teachers see no need (good teachers know the importance which includes a number of TPS teachers).

With a levy on the ballot, there will be plenty of communications and information provided. TPSINFO.COM is going through a facelift, but will be on line in a week or so. Information and analysis on a number of these and other subjects including all supporting documentation so folks can do their own analysis if desired will be available at TPSINFO.COM.

Ok Dale, time to call me a teacher hater or whatever adjective is on your mind today. :)

You reiterate the fact that an independent source found that there was no racial discrimination in the Toledo Plan.

Neither the Toledo Federation of Teachers, nor the Ohio Federation of Teachers, nor the American Federation of Teachers has ever stated that they oppose charter schools. As a matter of fact, it was Albert Shanker, the longtime President of the American Federation of Teachers, who envisioned charter schools as working laboratories to try inventive ways to teach without the restrictions of too many governmental regulations. Mr. Shanker never, however, envisioned a parallel system of demonstrably inferior schools under the guise of doing things differently. Ohio's charter school law is the problem. It is the worst charter school law in the nation.'re a man of statistics. You know that if Ohio's charter schools, as a whole, were one large school district, that "district" would be considered the worst in the state, if not in the nation. Stating that some charter schools are successful is extremely misleading. BTW...have you ever publicly praised Start High School for being the first traditional urban high school in Ohio to be awarded the rating of "Excellent" according to the state report card? Or can't you bring yourself to state anything positive about any Toledo Public School?

Choice can be a good thing. The fact that so many parents choose to send their children to so many charter schools that are so bad indicates that many believe that because the charter schools are different, they must be better; that choice, in and of itself, is automatically good. In Ohio, more than in any other state in the union (although Michigan is almost as bad), this is just not so! The record of the vast majority of Ohio's charter schools is terrible, and this IS a civil rights issue. Most children in charter schools are NOT getting the quality education they deserve. We are NOT closing or "reconstituting" charter schools that are academic disasters. Basically, the only charter schools that close are those that are so fiscally mismanaged that they go broke! And this is often in the middle of a school year. And most of their students end up in traditional public schools, well behind their new classmates in preparedness to do grade level work!

Choice is an interesting concept. Too many parents choose to allow their children, from very young ages, to gorge themselves on "junk" food, watch very realistic gore in movies, and listen to recordings that emphasize mysogeny and the debasing of public authority figures. Parents don't always make good choices. Or, too often, they leave even very young children unattended by a responsible adult; free to make their own choices.

Those who supported Ohio's charter school law, as apparently you did and do, Steve, stated over a decade ago, that poorly functioning charter schools would close because parents would pull their children out of them; the "free market" at work. With all of the information available, one has to wonder why only the best charter schools aren't the only ones still functioning? Why aren't parents pulling their children out of the worst of Ohio's charter schools? My answer: salesmanship and marketing; the same reason for the other poor choices that I listed above.

Here's a good slogan: Ohio's Charter Schools...As Good for Your Child As a Big Mac!! (YUM!)

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