Freedom......a price too high?

" The cloak of freedom is saturated in the blood of Patriots".

I have been pondering this for most of the day. At what point would the typical American of today be willing to give up all he had and all he will ever have or know for an idea, a belief of freedom. Would they rise to the challenge of securing the hopes and dreams of their fore fathers, for their own prodigy? Would their apathy lead them into the chains of socialism? At what point were our Revolutionary Patriots of our nations birth committed to their cause?

I think all people, no matter the race or creed, the religious background or political affiliation, basically want to live their lives in peace and harmony, with little worry. They don't want government controlling their lives or forcing them into bondage weather by chain or economic limitation. We want to provide well for our families, have an opportunity to progress in life, financially, spiritually , and in intellect. To have the hopes and dreams that our children and grandchildren will do better than us. I think we can all agree on these things and should demand our elected officials follow the peoples desires.

Perhaps that is what the trigger point is. When a man sees his family, friends, and fellow citizens in economic despair due to the mismanagement of government to properly utilize their offices. When he sees no chance for advancement from his current situation,because his government informs him he will just have to do with less, but sees the politician fragrantly spend the wealth of a nation. When a man see that his generation will be the one that did not provide a brighter future for his children and grandchildren, not because he did not work hard, but because we just need to spread things around. When government for the people, elected by the people, simply ignore the people and tell us what we should think.

I am not a Democrat, Republican,Libertarian or Socialist.

I am a Patriot.

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Is this the quote you meant, Steveo?

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

As for blood: exactly whose blood do you think needs to be spilled these days? Are you being metaphorical, or are you among the folks who are ready to go to war over legislation you do not like?

Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families –

Saul Alinsky

Followers of Alinsky should be very careful what they wish for....

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

I'm of the thought that the overwhelming success of Tea Partys is seen by Organized Socialism as a form of violence. This new Movement has been wildly supported by those among us who are sick and friggin tired of the commies who are trying to turn our country into a socialist nirvana of sorts. This goes for republican and democrat politicians both who want more and more big government. Watch and see the turnout next week!

(notes the refusal of the above Tea Party warriors to address the question)

I'll re-phrase it: Do you believe bloodshed is necessary, as evidenced by all this militant talk on the far right about "revolution" and "refreshing the tree of liberty with blood" or as Steveo said: "the cloak of freedom is saturated in the blood of Patriots."

Do you? Or are you just making macho-sounding noise? I am genuinely curious if this rabid pseudo-warrior stuff is just posturing or if you really believe there is going to be some sort of violent domestic conflict in which self-professed patriots will take up arms to protest legislation they despise.

A direct answer would be appreciated.

From time to time as history has shown, blood shed seems to be the answer for some. My point was more on thinking of the many who have been willing to pay the ultimate price so that we may live a life of prosperity and freedom. I believe we take it for granted. That is what the "cloak" phrase is about.

There seems to be to me a flagrant disrespect of over what was given by others to get us here. Some do it subtlety, some do it directly, and some do it through apathy.

I post my thoughts to open dialog, to see what other people think and to allow a chance to hear them sound off.
Your comments " tough-sounding rhetoric of keyboard commandos" and "rabid pseudo-warrior stuff", is telling.

As for me spilling my blood for the cause of freedom of my children or grandchildren, I would be honored.

What would you be willing to give?

You seem unwilling to directly answer the question that I twice posed, Steve-o. I will, howver, answer yours:

1. If the United States faced a military invasion I would not hesitate to help defend the country. Admittedly, I am 45, 20 pounds overweight, and have 20/600 vision in my left eye, but I own and know how to fire a weapon.

2. I would not be pleased to ship my children 10,000 miles overseas to fight in a foreign war. If they volunteered or were drafted and died in the line of duty, I would have to accept their fate, but I sure wouldn't be "honored" by having dead children I could no longer hug.

3. Off the top of my head I can see no political controversies for which I would be willing to die, such as high taxes or government-run health care. I would protest such policies as needed, but like most sensible people in a democracy I would work within the system to bring about change. If my side lost the election, so be it - my side would just need to work harder to make its case. I would not run around demanding a revolution or make violence-suggestive comments about spilling blood just because I do not happen to like a current administration.

"The jockstrap of liberty is stained with the blood of tea-baggers"

Pink Slip

Most people talk a good game but when it comes down to brass tacks they do very little so I wouldn't worry about "revolutionists".

I deal with people's b.s. like this all the time. They talk a lot. Everybody is a tough guy when they're talking and they'll do this and that. Most don't have the stomach to actually do anything remotely violent.

I see it A LOT when I'm in Toledo.

MikeyA

Here's a reality check from MikeyA: Most don't have the stomach to actually do anything remotely violent.

And that's the truth. The few individuals that actually are violent generally fly quietly under the RADAR. Violent groups are easy to identify - the Hell's Angels MC comes to mind, as do a few similar clubs.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

No-I don't believe in violence-No I don't think violence is necessary for us Tea Baggers to resort to. No, I won't resort to violence myself. Yes, I will be as active in Tea Parties as I possibly can. Yes I will vote. If that makes me a Tea Party warrior-historicmike-count me in.

Watch and see how long it takes for the same professional agitators, like the ones who were bussed to Toledo when the nazis showed up a couple years ago to get the citizens fired up, begin trying to start trouble at the Tea Parties. Just like YOU keep trying to accuse Teabaggers of being violent, historymike, because you're scared, like the rest of big government crowd. You see a real challenge to the socialist movement, and a challenge you're powerless to stop.

1. You are delusional if you think there were "professional agitators bussed in" for the neo-Nazis. This was entirely a local and grass roots response led by local activists, and the thousand or so people who showed up lived in the neighborhood. There were a handful of out-of-town (i.e. Detroit and Cleveland) ISO and ARA types who showed up the day of the riot to protest, but all of the local grass roots work was performed by local activists. And really: it only takes a few hundred flyers and some cell phone calls to get the word out that a neighborhood is being invaded by Nazis to get a good crowd - would you want Nazis walking around in front of your house, as was the case with the idiotic plan endorsed by Jack Ford in 2005?

2. I never "accused" anyone of violence, and I rarely even write about the Tea Party movement. My question is in response to the imagery of blood, militarism, and violence I keep seeing in the rhetoric of some in the Tea Party movement. Thank you for your response.

3. I do grow tired of the "you are either with us or you are a socialist" stupidity that takes the place of legitimate debate by some on the far right. Nice try using the current fallback position of denouncing anyone who disagrees with you as a DIRTY RED, but that dog don't hunt, as my Southern relatives say.

4. I have a long streak of fiscal conservatism in me, dude, but apparently for many in the Tea Party movement that's not good enough to keep from being called a socialist. The fact that I support the Second Amendment and deplore high taxes and bloated government cannot make up for my "sins" of being a moderate on social issues, or that I think the protection of constitutional rights is a primary function of government.

#1..This quote: "You are delusional if you think there were "professional agitators bussed in" for the neo-Nazis. This was entirely a local and grass roots response led by local activists, and the thousand or so people who showed up lived in the neighborhood"

Standard libtard debating tool...

"you are delusional if you think there were "professional agitators bussed in""...

But you didnt bother to do a google search:

http://www.democracynow.org/2005/10/18/over_100_arrested_in_toledo_ohio

So, quickly more than 200 or 300 residents and, I should add, professional counterdemonstrations who came into Toledo from surrounding cities and states, who came in and began to confront and to again insult and just to kind of do verbal battle with the neo-Nazis. I should say also that among those professional counter-protestors, there were what some—they were anarchists who really were inciting a lot of the people. In fact, it was them who originally brought eggs and other type of refuge and was passing it out among the residents of the neighborhood. And at one point, those eggs and refuge were thrown at the neo-Nazis, and the police reacted very swiftly and very forcefully by moving in the mounted police.

Right on your blag you admit foreknowledge of planning of violence...and even promised to not share that information:

"I believe that I honored my commitment to speak in general, non-specific terms about the meeting."

http://historymike.blogspot.com/2005/10/anti-nazi-group-angry-at-history...

And this:

the groups that assembled today for planning were concerned about such issues as meeting places, parade routes, stashing/concealment of weapons, and the placement of getaway vehicles. They were knowledgeable about the neighborhoods, and had several contingency plans in place.

http://historymike.blogspot.com/2005/10/extreme-showdown-groups-lining-u...

So you admit you had foreknowledge of a conspiracy to commit crimes and didnt inform the police?

And you claim that the riot was "entirely" homegrown...even wrote an article declaring so...when the facts clearly dont support your assertions?..

So A)...you are ignorant

or B) you sought to downplay this as any liberal writer would...

#2,,,oh the old " I never "accused" anyone of violence" canard...

Quote:
"Are you being metaphorical, or are you among the folks who are ready to go to war over legislation you do not like?"

Then this:

Ah, the tough-sounding rhetoric of keyboard commandos
Submitted by historymike on Tue, 2010-02-02 18:54.
(notes the refusal of the above Tea Party warriors to address the question)

I'll re-phrase it: Do you believe bloodshed is necessary, as evidenced by all this militant talk on the far right about "revolution" and "refreshing the tree of liberty with blood" or as Steveo said: "the cloak of freedom is saturated in the blood of Patriots."

Do you? Or are you just making macho-sounding noise? I am genuinely curious if this rabid pseudo-warrior stuff is just posturing or if you really believe there is going to be some sort of violent domestic conflict in which self-professed patriots will take up arms to protest legislation they despise.

A direct answer would be appreciated.

I know you think you are all smart and stuff....you might impress your braindead students...but any adult can see right through your baiting bullshit...

#3...I do grow tired of the "you are either with us or you are a socialist" stupidity that takes the place of legitimate debate by some on the far right."

As compared to the leftist stupidity

" This country's progress has been hijacked by Town Hall Meetings and Tea Parties for the past year which to me is a type of treason."

The penalty for treason is death...

So what we have here is a declaration of self defense...a line in the sand...

Cross it at your own risk.

4. I have a long streak of fiscal conservatism in me, dude, but apparently for many in the Tea Party movement that's not good enough to keep from being called a socialist. The fact that I support the Second Amendment and deplore high taxes and bloated government cannot make up for my "sins" of being a moderate on social issues, or that I think the protection of constitutional rights is a primary function of government.

Pure disclaimer...a distraction...

If that were true...you blog wouldnt be filled with leftist bullshit......you'd be a tea blogger instead of a libtard....

One only need to read your blog to see exactly where you stand...you also an anti-semite PLO sympathiser:

Perhaps our unhappy friend might move to a state where fascist repression of protest is the norm. Like, say, Israel, where police and government forces regularly harass peaceful protesters like these.

http://historymike.blogspot.com/2009/01/toledoans-protest-israeli-war-on...

I hereby dub thee...historyrevisionmike.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

I am not interested in a pointless argument with a righteous zealot who is convinced I am a socialist menace. Such a conversation ends up being like this (simplified):

Z: Yes, you are.
H: No, I am not.
Z: Yes, you are.
H: No, I am not.
Z: Yes, you are.
H: No, I am not.

However, I do find it hilarious that you cite my blog showing the planning by local activists, and then try to maintain the same argument Jack Ford tried to float, which was that this was an out-of-towner problem. How can local activists be planning the protest in advance, but somehow busses of long-distance agitators are the real culprits?

As far as "prior knowledge": there were no plans to commit crimes. "Stashing of weapons" (i.e. syticks and knives) is not a crime, and anyone who respects the Second Amendment should respect the idea that people should be able to defend themselves. If you read further in the post, you will see that there was disagreement over whether a completely non-violent approach should be followed, as some anarchists wanted to kick some Nazi ass.

Similarly, "getaway vehicles" is not a crime in itself, unless someone is robbing a bank or something. Positioning a vehicle near the protest site simply means protesters will have a means to leave if the police cordon off an area.

Finally: I wrote about this on the blog and in TFP. It is the journalist's job to report, not to act as a police informant. If I knew of an imminent plot that would cause serious harm, I would certainly pass along information. But when I hear some college-age anarchists talking smack about beating a Nazi, I take it with a grain of salt.

Just like I do when I read a rightwinger talk about blood and military action.

Oh my...a whole lot of typing...yet nothing said...

Look at the spin, spin ,spin...LMAO...

denials and a bit of namecalling...

Yeah "normal" people stash weapons and plan getaways all the time...

or maybe just the people you hang out with?...

The whole intent was to commit violence...you were aware of it...and you didnt tip off the cops...

Even AFTER the fact when you SAW violence....did you turn these names over to police?

No?

Look it up...you are an accessory to the crime of riot.

Both before and after the fact.

And why dont you address the direct quote about "professional demonstrators" coming to toledo?

Because it shows you to be a liar or just plain ignorant?

Are you saying the good preacher is a liar?

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

I know you think you are all smart and stuff.

Don't you just love this shit? With unemployment as high as it is I truly do not understand why social services has failed to assign this zoological rarity a keeper.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

If the Tea Partiers really believe what they say, then how could violence not be the logical conclusion unless they’re just circle jerking themselves into a self righteous anger to push a political agenda and the lies and distortions are just means to an end.

Obama and progressives like myself are regular called Nazis, fascists, communist and socialists who are bent on the destruction of America. I’m regularly on this site called a brown shirt and Al Qaeda sympathizer who values terrorist more than Americans. Tea Party personalities of the conservative media regular compare progressives to Nazi and Obama to Hitler they reference people being led to the slaughter, death panels for the elderly and totalitarian government.

If the Tea Partier really believes this, why wouldn’t they rise up in arms? They wouldn’t they take to the streets to remove the Nazis and terrorist sympathizers. They compare Obama to Hitler, but don’t have the balls to kill Hitler?

If I believed that Hitler was running my country you can sure as hell believe I’d send the wife and kids into hiding and I’d grab my gun. They again, may be conservatives are just blowing smoke…

BUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Stark raving moonbat.

http://historymike.blogspot.com/2007/08/on-president-bush-vietnam-and.html

And mike ass kisser...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Safety first, make sure you wear your safety goggles for your circle jerk.

Every good circle jerk needs a felcher.

And you're it....

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

yeah, that's the ticket....

right, Zerogeist....coming after us, hunting down all the appeasers and enablers?

'keyboard commandos'...for sure.

If that helps you sleep....believe it...

I know you are so used to not meaning what you say that you cant imagine others could mean exactly what they say....

There is a line drawn...cross it at your own risk.

The Adminsration has been given 6 months warning of an impending Al Q attack...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/us/politics/03intel.html?ref=world

You'd better pray the administration does EVERYTHING in it's power to stop it...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

despite what you claim you believe or mean what you say, I somehow doubt you're the leading man in Rambo V.

Warning of an impending al-Queda attack, you say? Obama should simply follow past guidelines and head to Texas to cut sage-brush on a ranch in Crawford...that worked out so well before...righto?

BUSH BINGO!

Filled my card....thanks bud!

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

'There is a line drawn...cross it at your own risk.'

you do what you do best....put on the town-crier costume when it fits your agenda...

all hat, no cattle....and no substance.

So which is it mcnasty?

We are a danger to the republic....or we are harmless...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

you're laughingly harmless.

Damn it McCaskey! Don't you know that the previous eight years didn't happen? And since the previous eight years didn’t happen, the tea baggers aren’t a bunch of hypocrites.

President Obama has shattered the budget record for first-year presidents -- spending nearly double what his predecessor did when he came into office and far exceeding the first-year tabs for any other U.S. president in history. 

In fiscal 2009 the federal government spent $3.52 trillion -- $2.8 trillion in 2000 dollars, which sets a benchmark for comparison. That fiscal year covered the last three-and-a-half months of George W. Bush's term and the first eight-and-a-half months of Obama's. 

That price tag came with a $1.4 trillion deficit, nearly $1 trillion more than last year. The overall budget was about a half-trillion more than Bush's for 2008, his final full fiscal year in office. 

That's a big increase. But compared with other presidents' first years in office, Obama is running circles around them. 

Bush spent $1.8 trillion in 2001, according to government budget figures that have been adjusted for inflation based on 2000 dollars. Using the same formula, former President Bill Clinton spent $1.6 trillion in 1993. 

The last president to clock in under $1 trillion was Gerald Ford, who logged a $982 billion budget in 1975. Post-war Dwight Eisenhower even brought Uncle Sam's tab down to $556 billion in his first year, 1953. 

Obama's first-year budget, adjusted for inflation, is about five times that. His 2009 budget is also close to 21 percent of that for Clinton's eight years in office -- Clinton's spending added up to $13.5 trillion over his two full terms. Bush spent $16.8 trillion from 2001-2008.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

the historymyke character is the best example of a self-anointed, pedantic putz I've seen so far on this forum, that's for sure. And the sensorgy character hasn't figured out yet, and probably never will, that us Teabaggers are going to get everything we want without any need for violence. We already are, as the removal of socialists in recent elections surely proves. All of the obamaoists' hopes and dreams, of a society of idiots living off the work and sweat of others-have been obliterated.

I suspect Mr historyrevisionmike has more in common with Bill Ayres than he would have us think...

His anti-isreal screeds are a hoot...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

At what point would the typical American of today be willing to give up all he had and all he will ever have or know for an idea, a belief of freedom.

That's easy: He wouldn't. Study the history of the revolutionary war and you'll find that the vast majority of people didn't get involved one way or the other. Apathy was the attitude most often found, as it is today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but about 3% of the population fought in the revolutionary war. The rest did nothing but wait for the results to be finalized.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

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