http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070530/NEWS33/70...
This just irritates me. Where's my gas card? I'm not at poverty level but I'm not too far off from it. I work 40+ hours a week. I made the choice to better myself by getting an education and finding a good job. When gas prices go up, I make adjustments to my budget. Dinners at home instead of out, buying what's on sale, tightening the belt overall. Why is the requirement for this that the person has to only work 20 hours a week, not 40? They don't even have to own a car in order to be eligible!!! What a waste of our money. The commissioners said that they had to spend the money or else it'd go back to Washington. So there was absolutely nothing else that this money could be used for? I'd like to get Maggie's opinion on this.
First off, my understanding is that this is a federal program, so the federal government sets the rules. Secondly and more importantly, there are certain requirements. You must have a child less than 18 years old, you must make less than twice the federal poverty rate, and you must work MORE THAN 20 hours a week. I don't wish to demean you in anyway, but it's very clear to me that you are eligible if you work 40 hours a week so long as you have a child and make less than twice the federal poverty rate (which is probably somewhere between 25,000 and 34,000 a year ((12,500 or 17,000)*2)). According to the Toledo Blade article, 50% of Lucas County residents fall into this category and are eligible. Perhaps you are eligible. If you're not eligible, than you're no where near the poverty rate. So please, spear me the whining, because if you were anywhere near the poverty rate, you'd at least be within twice the poverty rate.
Here are the actual federal poverty rates. It depends on how many people are in your family unit. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/05poverty.shtml
So take the number that applies to you and multiply it by 2. If you make less than that amount, you're eligible for the gas card.
Oops, those were the 2005 guidelines, here are the 2007 guidelines. My bad.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml
...this is TANF monies - temporary assistance to needy families - given as a block grant by the feds to the states. Ohio allocates funds to the various counties based upon a whole host of criteria (population, poverty levels, etc...)
The four purposes of TANF are:
- assisting needy families so that children can be cared for in their own homes
- reducing the dependency of needy parents by promoting job preparation, work and marriage
- preventing out-of-wedlock pregnancies
- encouraging the formation and maintenance of two-parent families.
Within these purposes, counties can implement all kinds of various programs, based upon local need. Here is a website to give more information about the eligibility, etc:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/opa/fact_sheets/tanf_factsheet.html
States have named their programs and Ohio's is called "ohio works first"
This is the same source of money used for the assistance with gas bills during the winter months.
Counties must develop written plans for how they're going to use the funds...overall all, in the U.S., about 2% of TANF funds are used for transportation assistance. The philosophy is that providing assistance with transportation needs helps the family maintain employment. Other uses include subsidies for day care, limited assistance with car repair, some support in obtaining uniforms needed for employment when not provided by the employer, job training and education (GED instruction), etc...
Westsider: the money can be used for other purposes - but they certainly don't get the kind of publicity as gas cards do. My preference was always for increased education/training so people could advance in the jobs they have - or move into higher paying positions thus earning enough so that they no longer need to have 'assistance' with regular, on-going expenses. The system encourages 'employment' first, which is good, but it also tends to focus on 'any' employment (which counts as placements for statistical needs) with cash assistance and other public programs utilized for daily sustenance. This is okay on a temporary basis, but without encouraging further education/training, most people will stay in such 'first employment' and continue to be a participant in the 'system.'
Additionally, giving out these gas cards only helps ease the problem in the short term. They can only get the cards once - and while I'm sure it helps pay for the gas, it doesn't help the family in a long-term way. When the County gave out the vouchers for home heating needs in the winter, the compromise I obtained was that they had to participate in a session that showed them how to help insulate their homes (shrink-wrap on windows, installing programmable thermostats, etc.) - to help reduce the usage that leads to such high heating bills.
Personal opinion: Ben Konop was ridiculous in saying that he didn't want the money to go back to the federal government for 'big oil.' Where does he think that the profit from the purchase of GAS cards goes, if not to "big oil"????
Or, do they have any way to track these? What is to stop these people from selling their $200 gas card to someone who actually owns a car for say $100 cash? Sounds like another way for Konop to get his name in the paper to me, and buy a few votes while he is at it.
--These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will; in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. -Thomas Paine
Maggie - thank you for your input. That is why I was so frustrated by this- it's just a short-term solution. I would much rather see the money put towards education and training programs that could last somebody a lifetime.
Tpsteacher24 - that's yet another concern too. From what I understand by the news reports, there isn't any way to track them. If you don't even have to prove that you own a car, then there were probably a few other common-sense things that fell through the cracks with this too. I thought I heard that when the commissioners were asked about why people who don't own cars can qualify, their rationale was that the cards can be used to help pay for the gas of whomever drives the person to work.
"Sounds like another way for Konop to get his name in the paper to me, and buy a few votes while he is at it."
Ya know, they could have not spent it and back to the Federal government it goes. Why not take back a little of our Federal taxes and disperse it back within the community.
And sure, someone can sell the $200 gas card to someone else, but whose dumb enough to buy a $200 gas card for more than $200? Not to mention, Speedway cards can ONLY be used for gas, nothing else. Can't be redeemed. Can't be used for food or anything, just gas.
Based on the Salary for City Coucil members, $27,500.00 each, they qualify for the gas cards..
used that term. Something as simple as putting a name on the card, or a signature line could be used. Maybe it is just me, but I am tired of people sucking the government 'teet'. Food cards, gas cards, free cheese, milk, etc. Sorry, but not my problem.
--These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will; in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. -Thomas Paine
We know why the commisionors, Konop in particular, opted for gas cards and not another option (training for instance) because gas cards can help buy votes!
Konop is developing into the most insidious type of politician instead of becoming a virtious statesman. Toledo, Lucas County, and Ohio should keep a suspisious eye on him because he surely has his targeted on higher office.
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
you're always so cynical.
You remind me a lot of..., me.
:-)
But, I'm not into bashing the "new kids" quite yet; there will be plenty of time for that soon enough ;-)
Hey now, it's not being cynical it's being realistic!
I appreciate the mercy! :-)
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
I was expecting to read that this effort to help those of us less fortunate would lead to comments about illegally using our tax monies.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
You read it that way and it was not meant that way.
The rules are clear as to why the money is distributed and there is no sarcasm intended nor stated when I mentioned the constitutional issue as this is a case that is similar in some to giving money to people in need in NYC.
And there are a great many who feel that we should not as a nation help those that are less fortunate than others, and the oft repeated line is gett a better job as if that is the panacea to all in an area that is lacking in jobs and where some people have not obtained the same level of education as others and if that is sarcasm then I am guilty as perceived.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
are called Democrats, Libertarians, Greens and so on.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
This is a waste of money. Would have been better spent studying why airplanes should be made out of the same material used to create "black boxes"!
I want to know who this mythical person is that lost his or her job because they couldn't get to work due to not having the money for gas? Give me names! I have a feeling that this person doesn't really exist in Lucas County
Damn it people...start THINKING and STOP FEELING! It's so damn agonizing!
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
Ask for them here;
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/default.asp?RequestedAlias=JFS
And we should stop feeling for the people that are less fortunate than some of us, because?
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
get them tarta passes instead of gas cards. that $200 could get 5 months of a tarta bus pass.
i guess that wouldn't be as rewarding politically, huh?
Until you give me a name of a person who was fired from a 20 hour per week job because they couldn't get to work due to not being able to afford a tank (or even a quarter of a tank) of gas, and a card that may last them a month saving their employment for the remainder of the year, I'm saying it's a sob story myth that's sold to you by poverty pimps in government who are more concerned with the preservation OF THEIR OWN JOBS than some person with unreliable transportation.
While you're at it, find me the old lady who eats Alpo because she can't afford real food.
Why don't all you people who are concerned about these folks start an online carpool bulletin board (you're internet savvy)for people who can't afford gas and need ride to work, colleges and universities have them? Maybe you can get a grant from the merciful Ben Konop & Co or better yet ask him to give a personal docation from his own pocket and not someone elses. Let me guess, those people can't afford internet access either, well it looks like the city-wide Wi-Fi will take care of that problem for you.
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
Forgive my typos...I typed that with passion! :-)
Matt Holdridge
The Toledo Tattler
..the other day on performanced based budgeting...and you're probably wondering what that has to do with gas cards...
Here's the point - in performance based budgeting, you identify the goals you're trying to achieve, detail the tasks necessary to achieve the goal and then estimate the funding to complete the tasks.
I was thinking about this whole idea of 'identifying the goals' when reading the posts about 'helping others.'
So I have to ask: If the goal of TANF is to move families toward self-sufficiency, how does this gas card giveaway accomplish the goal?
I don't dispute that it will give families (as only those with a minor child in the house are eligible) some temporary relief. But how does this move a family toward self-sufficiency?
A lot of the comments on this issue are emotion-based...at least in terms of the desire to 'help.' So my intent in asking the question is not to deny the desire of others to want to help. Rather, I guess I'm asking what kind of help will actually achieve the established goals?
And does this short-term help actually mean that eligible individuals will be in a more precarious position next month or later when gas prices may actually be higher?
I don't have the answers, but am interested in other's perspectives...
Will they be able to use these gas cards at any gas stations, like BP, Meijer's, Kroger's, Sunoco's, etc. - or are they only good at one particular gas company stations? And if they're only able to be used at limited providers, then who chose that/those providers? I"m torn on this one - they would help provide short term relief, but I can also see a lot of abuses with them, and they'll do nothing to better their situation for the long term. I have no problem with helping those who are going through a bad patch. But sometimes it seems like there's many generations of the same families who've grown up in the same bad patch, so they aren't really looking for much long term improvement. I"ve heard a couple of women talk about how having more babies brings a bigger monthly check. I realize that's probably more the exception than the rule, but to hear them talk it's like they plot to devise new ways of geting more money from the state. Having said that, I'd prefer that money go to a woman's shelter or something similar. I've been very fortunate that my my husband has a good job - I count my blessings every day, and it breaks my heart when I hear how some kids don't have warm coats in the winter. But it also kind of irks me that many of these same people who'll get gas cards also get free medical/dental care, when our insurance is practically non-existant until this enourmous deductable is paid first. (Slowly but surely we're paying down a mountain of medical bills). I realize that sounds petty, and to be honest, I feel petty even saying it. For the most part though, I am for programs that will help their situations. But gss cards seem like a band-aid.
you must make less than twice the federal poverty rate, and you must work MORE THAN 20 hours a week.
Before or after taxes? No matter, I wouldn't qualify anyhow. No Kids, just an elderly mother who I must take care of. No EIC either. Damn
Program information - > http://co.lucas.oh.us/JFS/PRC_Gas_Card_Application.pdf
Application -> http://co.lucas.oh.us/JFS/PRC_Gas_Card_Application.pdf
the cash they sell the card for can be used for anything. Say, beer, smokes, or some illegal substance. This is the same scam they used to pull with food stamps. They sell them for fifty cents on the dollar and use the money to buy drugs. Exactly how does that help out the family? Of course not everyone does this, but too many do to justify this lack of oversight on the cards.
--These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will; in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. -Thomas Paine
"Food cards, gas cards, free cheese, milk, etc. Sorry, but not my problem."
Sort of like the teacher's union whining because of the lack of a pay raise with the rising GAS costs? Or, at least thats what one teacher cited when I watched the news.
Not anybody else's problem, go find a job that pays more.
...there's a difference between debating the ability of the federal government to create such a program and explaining why the county commissioners, under the state constitution, have an obligation to disburse the funds in accordance with the promulgated rules.
I, too, could make a sarcastic comment, but I'll refrain, as this is a pretty interesting and educational post about the local implementation of a federal and state mandate.
"And there are a great many who feel that we should not as a nation help those that are less fortunate than others"
Yes, they're called "Republicans."
hehehehehehe..Indeed:)
...they've bought enough gas cards to give them to 7,500 people. While there are some people in the County who have unreliable transportation that impacts their ability to hold a job (late to work because of car troubles), it's not 7,500!
However, such individuals usually have mechanical problems with cars - not a lack of fuel.
But the justification is that this helps the family - and if they're not spending $200 on gasoline, they've got $200 to spend on other needs - like car repair, etc... Or, with the rise in gas prices, the $200 makes up the difference between what they (and all of us) were paying and what the price is now.
And with this justification, it meets the criteria from both the state and the feds for the use of these funds.
What's even more agonizing is a guy who has such a myopic view of the world that he can't see the human story of poverty thru the dogma of the mythical self made man.
Do you honestly think that people aren't fired from jobs ALL THE TIME due to transportation issues? I propose that it happens EVERY DAY in Toledo. And of course all 7,500 people weren't in this bad of a predicament. But even those that aren't--even those that don't NEED this money to keep gas in their car--it gives them a little bit of relief. From my informal polling of friends, family, and co-workers, a $50 fill-up a week seems common. That's $200 a month. That's 25% of a persons monthly net if he works for minimum wage.
If this helps them with a little breathing room, if it means a real improvement--if only temporary--in quality of life, then it's certainly worth $200. For the people at this income level, there really isn't much (or any) disposable income. It's not as if high gas prices means one less oceanside holiday, or putting off that new car or bigger boat.
For these people, if they're spending $100 more per month on gas, that's $100 less on food or medicine or healthcare. It's pinching these people HARD. Everyone needs a hand-up sometimes. Peronsonally, I'm thrilled that we have county commissioners able to understand that, even if so many of our citizens don't.
We can build any kind of world we want for ourselves. There's no reason Government can't be a positive force in our lives.
You know...
if "politically rewarding" means a struggling family gets a little relief, I'm all for it.
if "politically rewarding" means a family doesn't have to pick whether to forgo medical treatment, or go hungry, or pick which bills to fall behind on, I'm all for it.
if "politically rewarding" means giving a little peace-of-mind to the single parent or the widowed grandmother, or the young couple just beginning their family, I'm all for it.
if "politically rewarding" means just ONE MAN, trying only to put bread on his table and a roof above his head, is able to keep his proverbial head above water for just another month or two, I'm all for it.
Shocking as it may be, what's "politically rewarding" can also be what's "right."
Does TARTA run 24 hours a day? I would expect if you're working part-time (say FedEx, like my niece) you might go in a 2:00 AM, and get off at 6:00AM. You might get TARTA service at the end of your shift, but not at the beginning.
"The median income for a household in the county was $38,004, and the median income for a family was $48,190. Males had a median income of $39,415 versus $26,447 for females. The per capita income for the county was $20,518. About 10.70% of families and 13.90% of the population were below the poverty line, including 19.70% of those under age 18 and 8.70% of those age 65 or over."
I can tell you that are a good number of people making ends meet by recycling cans and metal, legally.
We live in a country that was built on a sense of community not every person for themselves.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
"Rather, I guess I'm asking what kind of help will actually achieve the established goals?"
The established goals seem to be to make some situations in the short term easier on famalies that are struggling.
It could allow the people that choose the program to find out more options that are available to them as they have to apply for the program and from what I know of the center the counselors have vast amounts of contacts and information.
The help with regards to the gas cards could allow people to maybe make that drive that is/was some distance that they could not make with gas prices as high as they, thereby allowing to seek work that may offer better wages but is some distance away.
"And does this short-term help actually mean that eligible individuals will be in a more precarious position next month or later when gas prices may actually be higher?"
Maybe yes, maybe no. There are no sure things as we know, but there is hope and maybe just maybe with this chance and help from us there maybe a family or person that makes a new start.
It also should be noted that like all the other cycles in life we are now in the downward trend in the area. Have we reached bottom? How do we move upward?
How do we help our fellow citizen(s)?
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
The deal is with Speedway only. In other words, these gas cards are only speedway gas cards. The reason for this, however, is that speedway is the only company that offers cards for gas only. Additionally, my understanding is that exceptions can be made for commuters who don't pass by speedway on their way to work.
I would imagine it's before taxes. It's always before taxes.
What kind of "oversight" would you like? Should we spend another $100 of our tax dollars to ensure people don't abuse the $200 we handed out?
To me that sounds like spending dollars to save dimes and it doesn't much make sense.
Yes, some of the monies will be diverted. It's like the prescription drug problem. Some people get their pain meds and sell them on the black market. I was told recently by someone in the know that a person getting a prescription for twice a day OxyConton can sell HALF their script for $1500 a month.
Yes, diversion is a problem. But the other option is not helping those that need it just because a minority abuse it.
As for training, what kind of meaningful up-training can somebody get for $200 a head?
"They sell them for fifty cents on the dollar and use the money to buy drugs."
Sure, someone might sell their $200 gas card, but its' like prescription drugs -- they can't be misused. Someone is going to be using that gas card, its' all it can be used for.
Seriously, we receive FEDERAL dollars to be allocated for the area, and you WANT the commissioner's to turn it down and give it back to the Federal government??? What the hell would you do with the dollars? Seriously, what would YOU do with the money? There called TANF monies for a reason -- temporary assistance to needy families. I doubt training would qualify for that. Gas seems to be the piss ant right now being so high, so whats better than a gas card for some sort of temporary assistance?
you're right, it is exactly like that. Teacher's who have earned and deserve a raise, and free government handouts, those are exactly the same. Nice comparison, sorry I didn't see it before, I would have kept my mouth shut.
--These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will; in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. -Thomas Paine
what is wrong with tarta passes, shane? you never addressed that.
...Governor William Bradford's History of Plymouth Plantation, says just the opposite - that the Pilgrims tried the 'collectivist' approach and found it a failure - turning instead to individual property and individual production and then trade amongst themselves - which they found successful.
But maybe we're talking two different definitions of "sense of community"?
...Speedway's cards can be used on any product - BUT, Speedway is the only company to agree to work with the county to ensure that only gas is purchased with these cards. It's a minor difference in one respect, but a bigger one in another...I'm sure that there will be a few instances where rules will not be strictly followed, as has happened in the past with these cards.
Edit: I think I just realized that you weren't replying to me :)
...it's a total of $1.5 million that they're spending on this project and it does equal out to $200 per person. I guess the question would be this...If you can spend $200 to give some temporary relief from the cost of gas for 7,500 people but it keeps them dependent upon the public assistance - or you can spend the same amount of money to help train/educate some of those 7,500 people and they become self-sufficient and no longer need public assistance, which one 'buys' the greatest cost efficiency and has the best outcome?
I don't have the answer. However, I would have insisted that people who receive the cards participate in some sort of budgeting class so they can learn how to anticipate and plan for such increases in expenses in the future. In giving them this temporary help, can we also give them something that might be a bit more permanent to help them in planning, etc...
Seriously? You need me to explain this to you?
1. This is a lucas county thing. Tarta doesn't service all of lucas county.
2. Even if it did, it's not unheard of for people to drive 20, 30, 40 miles out of the city for work. I often work in Monroe, for example. How would a TARTA pass help me?
3. The nature of many jobs requires a car.
4. TARTA passes don't help the family who is, say, relying on a friend or neighbor to drive their child to school or daycare or whatever. That friend or neighbor needs gas money and would probably scoff at a parent that said "Neighbor, I apprecaite you driving little Mikey to day care and picking him up, especailly since it's so close to your own kids school, but would you mind taking the tarta bus instead?"
Should I go on, or is this enough?
I see your point, but I also see a value in real, immediate assistance. All the training in the world isn't going to help the guy living paycheck to paycheck who lost his job because he could no longer afford to drive to work. No, most recipients getting this help are not in such dire circumstances, but I'm sure that some are.
This is about acute relief.
I personally think the gov't should take a lead role in helping citizens and small businesses weather this transition in our economy. That means some short-term tariffs, perhaps, for certain sectors, training for workers, short-term income supplements for those that are "under-employed," tax forgiveness for small businesses in "at-risk" sectors. Etc.
I don't disagree with training people. But often those in your party think that this just isn't the things Government should be focusing on.
"However, I would have insisted that people who receive the cards participate in some sort of budgeting class so they can learn how to anticipate and plan for such increases in expenses in the future."
Two things here. One, this is a FEDERAL program. So how come the fault lies with Ben Konop? Two, maggie, your assuming that all people receiving this are wasteful spenders and therefore needing the budgeting class. What about the single parent going through college and has a 2-3 year old son/daughter while working in a low paying job and trying to get through school and better position themselves? They're stuck on a fixed income temporarily, obviously going through some rough times, while trying to get out of poverty. Training is absolutely fine, it's an added value in my opinion, however you make it sound like these people blew their money and therefore needing this gas card.
While we're on budget training, I think its' a good decision that everyone take some ideas/training from a professional. All military members have to go through financial responsibility when training, so should the public.
By the Lucas County Job and Family Services
There is nothing in the article to suggest one or the other that some counselor would or would not bring up the very classes for budgeting within the confines of the wage earners income or education opportunities
that may or may not be available.
But the program is administered by an agency charged with helping people to become self sustainable.
http://toledoohioneighborhoodconcerns.com/blog
Finally, someone who makes sense on this board.
i admit when i'm wrong. it would be tough to work.
my initial thought was based more out of frustration. i do not like welfare ( including foreign, corporate, individuals) for two basic reason. first, it's simply taking money away from my family. second, there is no end to it.
what happens when a storm/ hurricane goes through the gulf of mexico and gas flies by the $4 mark? if people can't afford it at $3.22, what will happen then? $400 gas cards?
I like Shane's comments. We need more gas cards.
Let's dump TARTA and give half the proceeds to get more gas cards for the poor and half back to the tax payers. According to the posts this would be more effective.
...while this is a federally-funded program, the money is given as a block grant to the states with wide latitude for expenditures. Additionally, the states give wide latitude to Counties for how their individual allocations are expended - so as to provide as much 'local control' to meet local conditions.
I didn't fault anyone for the program itself, as I understand how it can be made to fit into the criteria for expenditures. I only faulted Ben for saying he didn't want the money to go back to Washington (which it wouldn't have done) and be given to 'big oil' without acknowledging that buying GAS cards means that the evil 'big oil' was benefitting...kind of silly on his part, don't you think?
And I did not mean to imply - and don't think I did - that 'these people blew their money and therefore needing (sic) this gas card.' And NO - I don't assume that all people who'd qualify for this would NEED a budgeting class, I just used that as an example of providing some long-term solutions in addition to the short-term help.
I know that some are exactly as you describe, but that doesn't mean that someone who knows how to budget would get NO BENEFIT from such additional training. I know that many times there are classes where you can find something new even if you've participated in similar classes in the past. I don't think any one of us can say that we'd get no benefit whatsoever from attending such a type of class, so I agree with your last statement.
Like the old saying 'give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime'...I think that giving the gas cards is like the first part of the saying. I think we could couple that with something that teaches for a lifetime, too.
...when counties don't use their total TANF allocation, the money goes back to the state, who re-allocates it to other counties. The chances of these funds going unused within Ohio are slim to none - so the comment about 'losing it back to Washington' was either intentionally misleading and blatantly political, or a result of Mr. Konop's lack of understanding and explanation of the processes for unused TANF monies.
Lucas County Workforce Development Agency.
You can find the link to the .PDF here
I only faulted Ben for saying he didn't want the money to go back to Washington (which it wouldn't have done) and be given to 'big oil' without acknowledging that buying GAS cards means that the evil 'big oil' was benefitting...kind of silly on his part, don't you think?
Absolutely, the comment was a little befuddling, nonetheless, I doubt he's being political when trying to disperse these cards throughout the county.
I didn't say budgeting class would be a bad idea, I said it'd be an ADDED VALUE along with gas cards. I think EVERYONE should go through a budgeting class at some point in time. I only said that it seemed you were implying that these people need a class because of wasteful spending or what have you, if you weren't, I apologize -- meanings can be misinterpreted over the internet fairly easily.
Regardless if it goes back to the federal government or the state government, I usually tend to think its' a good thing to keep the dolla's here, or not, I suppose.
I don't consider anyone protesting the useless spending of hard earned tax dollars 'whining'. Such behavior is more of a left wing liberal trait...you should know that!