Nazi survivor to speak 10/26 at Holland library- is the past repeating itself ?

Living History: Come and hear the life story of Katalin "Kathy" Horvath. She is a naturalized U.S. citizen who immigrated from Hungary. She lived through Hitler's reign of terror only to face the oppresive Russian communist occupation at the wars conclusion. Learn how the tactics of these tyrants are being implemented in America as she draws parallels from the past to today. She did not leave her native land just to have the same abuses happen in the land of the free. Learn from Kathy experience of two broken systems so history does NOT repeat itself for a third.


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I have a hard time taking all the tea baggers and others who say that Obama is taking us down a fascist/Nazi road seriously when they were silent during the last Presidents reign.

They were silent when Bush argued that the government needed the power to arrest Americans on American streets and hold them indefinitely with out trial of their peers, no access to lawyers or family, be tried by military tribunal and executed.

They were silent when Bush argued that the government needed the power to listen to every conversation, read every e-mail and search every home with out a warrant.

They were silent when Bush wanted libraries to record and report everything that we read and check out.

But hey, Obama wanting to provide lost health insurance to millions of Americans is obviously the path to a fascist dictatorship like Hitler.

Bashing holocuast survivors now?

What the hell would she know about fascism anyways...right?

Just when you think a liberal cant stoop any get crap like this...

I have a hard time taking all the tea baggers and others who say that Obama is taking us down a fascist/Nazi road seriously when they were silent during the last Presidents reign.

They were silent when Bush argued that the government needed the power to arrest Americans on American streets and hold them indefinitely with out trial of their peers, no access to lawyers or family, be tried by military tribunal and executed.

You mean the patriot act?.....voted in by democrats as well and republicans?

The one they just RENEWED for Obama to use????

They were silent when Bush argued that the government needed the power to listen to every conversation, read every e-mail and search every home with out a warrant.

And a democrat controlled congress just renewed those powers for Obama.

They were silent when Bush wanted libraries to record and report everything that we read and check out.

Again...powers that Obama has now...thanks to democrats renewing the patriot act...

But hey, Obama wanting to provide lost health insurance to millions of Americans is obviously the path to a fascist dictatorship like Hitler.

Not's the govt putting "a gun to your head" part of it that people have a problem with...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

When did I "bash" a holocaust survivor? what makes the Patriot Act bad now that Obama is in charge and good when Bush was in charge?

You won't find me defending it either way. Why is Obama a fascist/socialist/Nazi because of the Patriot Act and Bush isn’t?

Also NO WHERE in the Patriot Act does it establish military tribunals for foreign or American terrorism suspects nor does it call for the indefinite detention of "enemy combatants" captured in Afghanistan and on U.S. soil. Nor does it give the President the right to call an American citizen an “enemy combatant” removing all constitutional rights. Nor does it give the President the authority to torture “enemy combatants”.

These are all things Bush argued that he had the right to do because the “War on Terror™”. Once again…why protest now?

Move on. Bush is history. Now we have the president usurper, the Socialist Obama to contend with. Deal with it.

1) "They were silent when Bush argued that the government needed the power to listen to every conversation, read every e-mail..."

The FACTS that Democrats hope you will never learn...

WHO WAS PRESIDENT on Feb. 27th, 2000 when 60 Minutes did THIS NSA SPYING PROBE?

"While the agency does not confirm the existence of the Echelon spy network, which a recent report to the European Parliament said can intercept phone calls, e-mail and other communications, the French government, European Union and other world governments have raised international angst over the possibility that everyday people are being spied upon for US intelligence gathering."

NOW N.S.A. spying is a problem?  Where was that Liberal "outrage" when Bubba was doing the EXACT SAME THING, WITHOUT NOTIFYING CONGRESS and DURING PEACETIME?

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

Echelon was created in the early 70's. It only become public during the Clinton adminstration.

Also Echelon as intended for foreign use. Not domestic. I'm not saying it wasn't, but that wasn't it's original intent.

Living under Naziism and Communism, Katalin Horvath must shudder at how president usurper Obama's Socialist regime aims to shut down dissent and persecute those who dare to speak truth to power. Orly Taitz also lived under Communism, which is why she so courageously opposes its influence in this country.

Since Katalin Horvath is originally from Hungary, she would be familiar with Hannah Senesh who worked hard to save Hungarian Jews. Hannah Senesh was caught, tortured and murdered by the Socialist Nazis. I was a volunteer at Kibbutz Sdot Yam where she lived in Israel, and am humbled to have a poem honoring her in the center there.

"They were silent when Bush argued that the government needed the power to arrest Americans on American streets and hold them indefinitely with out trial of their peers, no access to lawyers or family, be tried by military tribunal and executed."

The FACTS that Democrats hope you will never learn...

Direct from the World Socialist Website (which I'm sure is part of the DNC)

"The Obama administration announced this week that it intends to continue the Bush administration policy of holding terrorism suspects indefinitely without charge or trial.

On Wednesday, the Justice Department said that President Obama may continue to hold “terror suspects” indefinitely and without judicial review based on the congressional Authorization to Use Military Force that came in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington—the same rationale used by Obama’s predecessor, George W. Bush.

The move aims to institutionalize the previous administration’s assault on habeas corpus—the bedrock principle of democratic rights and the civil liberties laid down in the US Constitution’s Bill of Rights.

The announcement is a shift from a position Obama outlined in a May 22 speech at the National Archives. There he said he would go to Congress to obtain legislation to carry on the policy of indefinite detention, which he claimed was the only way of dispersing a section of the Guantánamo prison population too “dangerous” to try in civil courts."

If you are really upset about holding terrorists, why aren't you in Washington right now PROTESTING?

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

You guys prove me point, over and over. You keep point how Obama's policies are like Bush's. Yet you had no problems with Bush. Beck and Horvath weren't running around comparing Bush to the Nazis...

I'm joint pointing out I can't take you guys seriously.

"You keep point how Obama's policies are like Bush's. Yet you had no problems with Bush."

The point is, our stance has not changed. YOU and your kind were the ones who had a problem with Bush.

Now that Obama is acting like Bush, you suck up to him, kiss his ring and call everything OK.

And you expect America to take you seriously when you flip-flop worse than John Kerry?

If you school-children were screeching about Bush, then you should be screeching about Obama.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

LibBloJob, I debunked your Echelon BS long ago. Please refer to it:

Pink Slip

1) Since the Echelon program was an American program based in America, who do you think the Echelon program was listening to?

2) If not Americans in America on American owned private phone conversations, then please explain to me which countries allowed the American Government to spy on their citizens overseas on a sovereign nations phone system not belonging to America?


Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

That's too easy, LibsCanBlowMe. Just repeat the official mantra:

Mmm Mmm Mmm
Barak Hussien Obama
He'll tax and spend
And never end
The welfare state we all know and love.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

OBAMA money!...from his stash!

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

You debunked nothing....Wiki sucks for proof of anything...

Eshelon has been in development since around 1947 ....and after this is hardly a secret...

Spies like US

By Diane Alden
web posted January 31, 2000

Does the word Echelon ring a bell? Whatever happened to the flap regarding a spy system which had an entire international community in an uproar. According to some European journalists and investigators Echelon is alive and well, and currently, its main intent is to look into the private lives of citizens and businesses worldwide.

While it continues to gather info about international bad guys it is also being used by the ethically challenged Clinton administration in order to give an edge to American corporations.

Nonetheless, other analysts maintain that Echelon's parent organization, the National Security Agency is in deep trouble; due to deficiencies in intelligence gathering and bureaucratic incompetence. They insist that Echelon is a non-starter, a paranoid figment of everyone's imagination. That Echelon's intelligence capability through mega-powerful electronic surveillance is a total fiction. The evidence is mounting that they are wrong.

Everyone realizes that any responsible government needs intelligence gathering in order to survive in a hostile world and to save lives. But, it is probable that a lot of NSA surveillance has nothing to do with terrorists and international bad guys.

To find out, I had to go to talk to some Danish journalists, look into the National Security Archives, and read Scottish journalist and physicist Duncan Campbell and New Zealand's security expert Nicky Hager, to sort through it all. The documents on Project Echelon would fill three football stadiums.

Instituted in 1947 under the Truman administration, Echelon was part of a Cold War strategy to keep track of various aspects of international skullduggery. Echelon is described as a global surveillance network that intercepts and processes the world's communications and distributes it to the US primary partners, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.

Intelligence analysts Jeffrey Richelson and Michael Evans of the National Security Archives at George Washington University, say that NSA directs and manages U.S. intelligence activities. Plus all collection activity carried out by military intelligence units. This includes the work of the Naval Security Group Command at a place called Sugar Grove, West Virginia.

Newly declassified documents recount that the very controversial program called Echelon does indeed exist. One of its main hubs is the Sugar Grove facility in West Virginia. Other hubs include Menwith Hall in England and six or seven other sites around the world.

In classified documents, which are in the possession of Danish newspaper Ekstra Bladet, Menwith Hill is referred to as 'the largest station in the service'. Europeans seem most upset and concerned about Echelon and NSA's influence on interception of Internet communications and electronic communications for good reason.

Alain Lallemand of Belgium's LeSoir, reported that expert testimony presented to the European Parliament in December, devoted two pages to the Anglo-American spy network, this included Echelon.

Lallemand reports that another blockbuster follow-up expose' is on the way. It will show that America's NSA, is deeply involved in the surveillance of European companies and individuals. This latest intelligence will be presented to the European Parliament on February 22.

In very technical detail, the report will give names, dates, places and techniques of interception. The French and Italians are particularly upset because the communications involved were those of its diplomats. The report maintains that all means of communication, including computers, Internet, wired and cellular telephones, and even satellite telephones of the Iridium type are covered by Echelon. Additionally, it reports that companies like Microsoft, Lotus, Netscape are alleged to have undermined the encryption of America's software. Lallemand maintains that Americans have equipped nine strategic points of Internet exchanges with detection software.

Currently, the Danes are doing some of the more comprehensive investigation regarding Echelon. Bo Elkjaer and Kenan Seeberg of the Danish newspaper Ekstra Bladet informed me that Echelon is indeed a real operation and that not everything it is doing is for national security reasons.

The Danes have traveled all over the world including the United States. In the U.S. they spoke to a woman who was involved in the original development of Echelon. Her name is Margaret Newsham and she lives in Nevada. In the 70s and early 80s Mrs. Newsham worked on the project known as Echelon.

Ekstra Bladet has Margaret Newsham's stationing orders from the US Department of Defense. She possessed the high security classification TOP SECRET CRYPTO.

In the interview, Mrs. Newsham says that for ten years, she worked for the US munitions and computer firms Signal Science, Ford Aerospace and Lockheed Martin. They had contracts for the development and upgrading of Echelon satellites and computers, which the companies designed for the intelligence agency NSA.

That NSA cooperates closely with the CIA and NRO (National Reconnaissance Organization). For two years, Newsham shared the responsibility for the day-to-day functioning of Echelon's computer network at Menwith Hill, England.

Her former employer, Lockheed Martin, is the largest supplier of munitions to the US military services and to their intelligence agencies, the NSA and the CIA. During the eighties, Lockheed Martin took over LORAL Space Systems and Ford Aerospace which also deliver monitoring equipment to the espionage agencies.

Margaret Newsham worked for the NSA through her employment at Ford and Lockheed from 1974 to 1984. In 1977 and 1978, Newsham was stationed at the largest listening post in the world at Menwith Hill, England. She received on-the-job training at NSA headquarters at Fort George Meade in Maryland, USA.

Not surprisingly, the NSA cooperates closely with the CIA and NRO (National Reconnaissance Organization). For two years, Newsham shared the responsibility for the day-to-day functioning of Echelon's computer network at Menwith Hill, England.

Mrs. Newsham says that the whole spying network and its various programs are called "The Black World." The code name Echelon is only part of the entire system, and everything seems to indicate that they have switched codes. However, Scottish physicist and journalist Duncan Campbell says it is now called "Magistrand."

Mrs. Newsham told the Danes that: "It is almost impossible to tell the difference between NSA agents and civilians employed by Lockheed Martin, Ford and IBM. The borderlines are very vague. I had one of the highest security classifications which required the approval of the CIA, the NSA, the Navy and the Air Force."

That's why we called them "Black Programs". The government didn't really know what was happening or what the many billions were actually being used for. And I felt very loyal both to the government and to the American Constitution, which was constantly being infringed. The world of espionage was called 'The Black World' because most of the operations were carried out in secrecy, beyond any control.

Mrs. Newsham alleges that Lockheed Martin undercut other companies to get NSA project contracts, after which they illegally transferred money and manpower to meet the contract. "Since they could swindle others for hundreds of millions of dollars, they were capable of anything. That made them very deceitful, and in my eyes, they jeopardized the security of the United States government."

Newsham is not pleased with herself for participating in spying on ordinary people, politicians, interest groups and private companies, which is exactly what she did for 10 years, from 1974 to 1984. Both the satellites and the computer programs were developed at Lockheed's headquarters in Sunnyvale California, and in 1977, she was stationed at the largest listening post in the world at Menwith Hill, England.

"One day at Menwith Hill I realized in earnest how utterly wrong it was." At that time one of the experts she worked with asked if she wanted to listen in on a conversation they were tracking. To her amazement she listened and heard the voice of Senator Strom Thurman being picked up in his Capital Hill office. Shortly after this incident she quit her job. Now extremely ill, she mentions that most of her former co-workers are dead and her life is ruined. She sleeps with a pistol under her pillow and a 120-pound German Shepard as her companion.

The Danish journalists maintain that Denmark's part in the "Black World" of super secret spying takes place at a place called Aflandshage.

They stated that, "Everything indicates that the large parabolic antennas and accompanying buildings are used in the same way as the facilities in the other countries: to intercept communication from commercial satellites that transmit the phone and fax conversations of ordinary people. And to forward the intercepted information."

Investigative journalist Elkjaer said there is more: "NSA runs a networked database called Anchory. What I can see, a lot of SIGINT collected material is piped into the database, and apparently they keep open databases on all countries they listen to. I haven't heard of anyone with access to these databases, but I have located links to the internal intelligence community network. This is where they keep the good stuff:"

Elkjaer mentioned several other sites that are non-accessible to the general public, including one in the UK which monitors parts of Europe. Using heavy pressure, he was able to get one of Denmark's politicians to confess that the Danes did take part in Echelon. "Denmark participates in a global surveillance system," admitted the Minister for the Defense Hans Hækkerup.

Echelon and NSA seem to be losing their focus. The executive branch and the congress must share responsibility for oversight of various government agencies. The congress, in particular, has the responsibility to make sure the United States spy apparatus is not running amuck at the expense of private citizens and our eroding and precarious constitutional guarantees. It also must make sure that the United States set an example as leader of the free world. Instead, it seems that the US is rapidly turning into a corporate state which will do anything for a buck.


And for the record...I supported the patriot act....and still do...

It's called consistancy.....these tools are needed to intercept acts of terror in a few recent terror arrests confirm...

The point you guys are glossing over....what you are crying about Bush doing...Obama is ALSO doing....

The very fact that paranoid liberals would all the sudden takes the CIA's word at face value is a big fat joke....

You dont trust the CIA...and you are only citing them as a club to beat people with...



allready...your point is was moot the day Obama took over with the same tools Bush had.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Thanks for debunking LibBloJob's Echelon myth Z. Echelon wasn't some American program used by Clinton. According to Congressional testimony, Echelon used the FISA courts and got warrants and didn't spy domestically on it's own citizens, until Bush expanded the program.

Pink Slip

The very last sentence. But really, can you expect a Libtard moron to actually research?

In the link  you gave, Cliton CIA Director Tenent said:  "We conduct SIGINT to protect US national security and the lives of Americans. Our targets are foreign. There are, as you know, some special circumstances recognized in the law in which collection on Americans is permitted. US persons, both individuals and companies, who engage in activities on behalf of foreign powers, terrorist groups, and others working against the US are of great concern to us. General Hayden will explain in more detail how NSA can lawfully obtain such information."

The last sentence was "Let me now turn to General Hayden."  so I did. And here's what General Hayden had to say about your so-called FISA warrants etc.

"When NSA does acquire information about a U.S. person, NSA's reporting does not disclose that person's identity, and NSA will only do so upon a specific request that meets the standard derived from statute5 and imposed by Executive Order regulation -- that is, the information is necessary to understand a particular piece of foreign intelligence or as*ess its importance. Specifically, no information, to, from, or about a U.S. person may be retained unless the information is necessary to understand a particular piece of foreign intelligence or as*ess its importance."

(Note: the Swampbubbles profanity filter will not allow me to quote the General. The word above as*ess is defined below)
Did you catch that, YellowSlit? Here, read it again. "When NSA does acquire information about a U.S. person" Get it? "When NSA does acquire information about a U.S. person"  HE DID NOT SAY "IF", HE SAID "WHEN."

Read it again if you know how to read.

"When NSA does acquire information about a U.S. person"


Defnination of the word that the profanity filter would not allow


Pronunciation: \ə-ˈses, a-\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, probably from Medieval Latin a*sessus, past participle of assidēre, from Latin, to sit beside, assist in the office of a judge — more at assize
Date: 15th century

1 : to determine the rate or amount of (as a tax)

2 a : to impose (as a tax) according to an established rate b : to subject to a tax, charge, or levy

3 : to make an official valuation of (property) for the purposes of taxation

4 : to determine the importance, size, or value of <a*sess a problem>

5 : to charge (a player or team) with a foul or penalty

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

I'm almost embarassed for pink ....

May 27, 1999
Lawmakers Raise Questions About International Spy Network

An international surveillance network established by the National Security Agency and British intelligence services has come under scrutiny in recent weeks, as lawmakers in the United States question whether the network, known as Echelon, could be used to monitor American citizens.
Last week, the House Committee on Intelligence requested that the National Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency provide a detailed report to Congress explaining what legal standards they use to monitor the conversations, transmissions and activities of American citizens.

The request is part of an amendment to the annual intelligence budget bill, the Intelligence Reauthorization Act. It was proposed by Bob Barr, a Georgia Republican and was supported by the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss, a Florida Republican. The amendment was passed by the House on May 13 and will now go before the Senate.

Barr, a former CIA analyst, is part of a growing contingent in the United States, Europe and Australia alarmed by the existence of Echelon, a computer system that monitors millions of e-mail, fax, telex and phone messages sent over satellite-based communications systems as well as terrestrial-based data communications. The system was established under what is known as the "UKUSA Agreement" after World War II and includes the security agencies of the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Although Echelon was originally set up as an international spy network, lawmakers are concerned that it could be used to eavesdrop on American citizens.

"I am concerned there are not sufficient legal mechanisms in place to protect our private information from unauthorized government eavesdropping through such mechanisms as Project Echelon," Barr said in an interview on Tuesday.

The finished report will outline the legal bases and other criteria used by United States intelligence agencies when assessing potential wiretap targets. It will be submitted to the House and made available to the public.

"If the agencies feel unable to provide a full account to the public, then a second classified report will be provided to the House Committee on Intelligence," Barr said. "This is to stop the agencies hiding behind a cloak of secrecy."

Judith Emmel, chief of public affairs for the NSA, declined to comment about the UKUSA Agreement but said the agency was committed to responding to all information requests covered by Barr's amendment. "The NSA's Office of General Counsel works hard to ensure that all Agency activities are conducted in accordance with the highest constitutional, legal and ethical standards," she said.

Until last Sunday, no government or intelligence agency from the member states had openly admitted to the existence of the UKUSA Agreement or Echelon. However, on a television program broadcast on Sunday in Australia, the director of Australia's Defence Signals Directorate acknowledged the existence of the agreement. The official, Martin Brady, declined to be interviewed for the "Sunday Program," but provided a statement for its special on Echelon. "DSD does cooperate with counterpart signals intelligence organizations overseas under the UKUSA relationship," the statement said.

Related Articles
European Parliament Debates Wiretap Proposal
(May 7, 1999)
Dutch Law Goes Beyond Enabling Wiretapping to Make It a Requirement
(April 14, 1998)

European Study Paints a Chilling Portrait of Technology's Uses
(February 24, 1998)


Meanwhile, European Parliament officials have also expressed concern about the use of Echelon to gather economic intelligence for participating nations. Last October, the spying system came to the attention of the Parliament during a debate on Europe's intelligence relationship with the United States. At that time, the Parliament decided it needed more information about Echelon and asked its Science and Technology Options Assessment Panel to commission a report.

The report, entitled "Development of Surveillance Technology and Risk of Abuse of Economic Information", was published on May 10 and provides a detailed account of Echelon and other intelligence monitoring systems.

According to the report, Echelon is just one of the many code names for the monitoring system, which consists of satellite interception stations in participating countries. The stations collectively monitor millions of voice and data messages each day. These messages are then scanned and checked against certain key criteria held in a computer system called the "Dictionary." In the case of voice communications, the criteria could include a suspected criminal's telephone number; with respect to data communications, the messages might be scanned for certain keywords, like "bomb" or "drugs." The report also alleges that Echelon is capable of monitoring terrestrial Internet traffic through interception nodes placed on deep-sea communications cables.

While few dispute the necessity of a system like Echelon to apprehend foreign spies, drug traffickers and terrorists, many are concerned that the system could be abused to collect economic and political information.

"The recent revelations about China's spying activities in the U.S. demonstrates that there is a clear need for electronic monitoring capabilities," said Patrick Poole, a lecturer in government and economics at Bannock Burn College in Franklin, Tenn., who compiled a report on Echelon for the Free Congress Foundation. "But those capabilities can be abused for political or economic purposes so we need to ensure that there is some sort of legislative control over these systems."

On the "Sunday Program" special on Echelon, Mike Frost, a former employee of Canada's Communications Security Establishment, said that Britain's intelligence agency requested that the CSE monitor the communications of British government officials in the late 1980s. Under British law, the intelligence agency is prohibited from monitoring its own government. Frost also said that since the cold war is over, the "the focus now is towards economic intelligence."

Still, Echelon has been shrouded in such secrecy that its very existence has been difficult to prove. Barr's amendment aims to change that.

"If this report reveals that information about American citizens is being collected without legal authorization, the intelligence community will have some serious explaining to do," Barr said.


Sept 15, 1997 . . . . . . . .

Did Clinton Bug Conclave for Cash?

By Timothy W. Maier

A presidential conference with Asian leaders was bugged by U.S. intelligence agencies, say high-level sources, and information was passed from the White House to big Democratic corporate donors.
I magine sitting in your room, shoes kicked off and your necktie loosened. It's been a long, hard day and now, sipping coffee, you're talking to a colleague who is fixing a drink at the mini-bar. At the same time, you're on the phone sharing information about the conference you've just attended. Sounds pretty typical,
doesn't it? Okay, now continue to imagine that just a few floors below your hotel room there's a secret command center filled with federal law-enforcement officers, intelligence agents and military personnel watching and listening to your every move and conversation.

. . . . Such a scenario might make sense if you were a mobster or a spy or a terrorist on whom the government needs to conduct such surveillance to protect the country from crime, espionage, or acts
of terror. But what if this scene -- extended to hundreds of hotel suites and meeting rooms in a major coastal city -- occurred during an international conference of world leaders hosted by the president of the United States of America?

. . . . Insight has been told that this is exactly what happened in 1993 in Seattle during a five-day Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation, or APEC, conference, in which leaders of about 15 nations gathered to discuss the future of trade and security issues involving the United States and our Pacific partners. "There were bugs placed in over 300 locations," says a high-level source with detailed knowledge about the extraordinary top-secret operation run by the FBI in conjunction with intelligence personnel from the National Security Agency, or NSA, and the Office of Naval Intelligence, among many others.

. . . . "Just about every single room was bugged," according to the high-level source who spoke to Insight on condition of anonymity.
"Vehicles were bugged," as were telephones and conference centers. Even a charter-boat trip arranged by the president to Blake Island, a 475-acre state park in the Puget Sound, was monitored by agents with electronic-listening devices.

. . . . The top-secret bugging operation was massive and well-coordinated. And the only reason it has come to light is because of concerns raised by high-level sources within federal law-enforcement and intelligence circles that the operation was compromised by politicians -- including mid- and senior-level White House aides -- either on behalf of or in support of President Clinton and major donor-friends who helped him and the Democratic National Committee, or DNC, raise money. A quid pro quo?

. . . . If the allegations of a massive, secret eavesdropping operation and leaks of information from that project by presidential aides prove true, then the White House will have a lot of explaining to do. So will the DNC and people involved in the reported clandestine plot who subsequently gained knowledge of suspected White House leaks but chose not to launch a national-security inquiry.
. . . The FBI was not happy with many aspects of the operation, according to the sources -- especially so when agents discovered the leaks. Complaints were brought within the bureau but, apparently, got nowhere. That is, until now.

. . . . The White House and the DNC deny the charges, let alone admit that such a secret intelligence operation was conducted against the heads of government gathered for the trade conference.

The NSA and the National Security Council, or NSC, won't respond to questions about such an operation or any similar operation, Insight sources in and out of government have confirmed. Neither will the FBI nor the Defense Department comment. The CIA and other intelligence agencies are mum, too.
. . . . Besides the revelation of the Seattle operation, Insight's sources say that information collected by the project's "monitors" was shared with people outside of national-security circles and involved proprietary data on oil and hydroelectric deals in Asia, including Vietnam. "I was told that information was passed to attorneys working for the DNC" who were involved directly and indirectly with large business ventures overseas, says one of the sources, who adds that one of the couriers was alleged to be a mid-level White House aide.

. . . . Such startling revelations about domestic
intelligence-gathering and allegations of leaks for political purposes certainly will become a cause célèbre for investigators now probing campaign fund-raising abuses by the DNC and the White House. "You get me the name of a person who will talk about this to
us," says one senior congressional investigator contacted by Insight, and Congress will get to the bottom of it.

. . . . Insight's sources say that besides worry about the damage caused by one of the largest eavesdropping operations mounted on American soil in U.S. history -- it allegedly included video, audio and telecommunications equipment -- U.S. intelligence experts also worry about the effects potential leaks of private conversations by heads of state and top ministers may have had on business and political deals around the globe.

. . . . Beyond the tawdry politicizing of this alleged operation, the very nature of such an intelligence undertaking on American soil comes as no great surprise. The surprise is in the detailed information about the clandestine operation that reached Insight.

"No reputable government official would discuss it" with you, an astonished senior intelligence official said privately when asked to comment.

. . . . But clandestine snooping on a grand scale is familiar stuff in the Washington area. It is a widely known secret that the NSA has a system known as ECHELON by which the government can -- and routinely does -- intercept E-mail, fax, telex and telephone communications. Designed primarily for nonmilitary targets --including governments, businesses and individuals -- the system steals communications internationally, says John Pike, the director of cyberstrategy projects at the Washington-based Federation of American Scientists.

. . . . "I assume that it is all being monitored with keyword scanning," Pike says. "They throw away almost all of the stuff they collect. But they have that watch list for names and they are working on voice-recognition software and that's going to be the big thing in the future." Such technology is used jointly by NSA and its allies as a "creative" means to avoid court orders, Pike claims.

. . . . In 1992, a year before the alleged bugging of the Seattle conference, a group of agents for GCHQ, the British counterpart of the NSA, blasted ECHELON. "We feel we can no longer remain silent
regarding that which we regard to be gross malpractice and negligence within the establishment in which we operate," the intelligence agents told the London Observer. The British agents claimed the NSA even helped intercept communications from Amnesty International and Christian Aid. Asked about ECHELON, the NSA says, "We have no information to provide."

. . . . Given all this snooping, there is little wonder that a worldwide market has developed for impenetrable encryption, which also could curb identity theft -- stealing Social Security numbers
and credit cards. "It's the reason I can't make any money on my World Wide Web site," Pike says. "People, for better or worse, don't trust the Internet. What we need is strong encryption available to everybody. Yes, it's going to cramp the style of the
folks at the Puzzle Palace [NSA], but a life more difficult at NSA means life is easier for the rest of the planet.

The benefits of promoting global Internet commerce outweigh the harm to the NSA." . . . . But, of course, exporting sophisticated encryption technology is prohibited, and everything bureaucratically possible
is being done to restrict its widespread dissemination in the United States and overseas.

. . . . Mike Godwin, an attorney with the California-based Electronic Frontier Foundation, says the government is afraid."Encryption is frightening to the government because it makes transactions hard to trace. We have the technology to shift the balance back to the 19th century, where you could be certain someone was not listening outside of your house. But you can't be certain today."

. . . . Indeed you can't. Apparently not even at an international conference of world leaders hosted on American soil by the president of the United States. Worse still, under this administration it may even be that the electronic pockets of America's top security agencies are not safe from gumshoe counterspies who, for reasons of politics or money, deliver vital
information gained from snooping and otherwise to political operatives eager to trade it for contributions from international corporate operators or whomever is paying the most today.

. . . . It is because of such concerns that bipartisan members of Congress -- including nervous democrats -- publicly and privately are stepping up their demands for an independent-council appointment to probe campaign abuses. It seems likely that more calls for probes soon will be heard. And questions about what the FBI knows, as well as the Secret Service, may lead to yet more astonishing answers.

© 1997 News World Communications, Inc.


American presidents have been spying on Americans for quite some time, are still, and will continue to do so...

The only thing that changes is motive and intent...

Grow up pink...there is a real world beyond your perceptions...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Zeitgeist, no where in those articles are any references to the US government actually illegally spying on it's own citizens. You apparently have not been following along, because the first article you posted says that the NSA and CIA were requested to testify before Congress. I have already posted the link to the actual testimony, and they testified that the FISA laws were followed

Pay attention next time, you're getting really sloppy with your drivel

Pink Slip

As I said BloJob, they did so LEGALLY which is what the testimony said. It wasn't until 2002 when the Bush administration ignored the FISA warrants that the law was broken. Ever hear of the whole "warrantless wiretapping" situation? It was a pretty big story a couple of years ago....try to Google it...

Pink Slip

Look up  "digital telephony legislative initiative" or you might try looking up the "CALEA Act" of 1994.

The CALEA Act made a law requiring standardized ability to WIRETAP all forms of communication , including broadband, wireless, etc .

Now who was President in 1994?

bill from money reprogrammed from intelligence and law enforcement agencies.

"On the last night of the 1994 session, Congress enacted the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), sometimes called the "Digital Telephony" bill. CALEA requires telephone firms to make it easy to wiretap the nation's communication system. The bill faced strong opposition from industry and civil liberties organizations, but was adopted in the closing hours of Congress after the government offered to pay telephone companies $500,000,000 to make the proposed changes. EPIC opposed passage of the bill and believes that the government has failed to justify the $500,000,000 appropriation required.

As part of the final omnibus funding bill enacted in the last days of the 104th Congress, the Congress approved a provision allowing for funding the digital telephony bill from money reprogrammed from intelligence and law enforcement agencies."



Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

Another swing and a miss....they were still required to acquire warrants if there was probable cause. And nothing you posted stated that they didn't.

Pink Slip

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