Never Forget, Always Remember...to Commemorate 9-11-01

Do you remember what you were doing that day? When our country changed forever? When our world would never be the same?

This undeniable American tragedy on our soil should be remembered year in and year out, to remember how people died that day because, in fact, they represented everything that America stands for.

We REMEMBER and chose not to forget that day. We can no longer be back to our lives as usual. We must be vigilant. Remembering these heroes will remind us of the feeling we had that day, when we suddenly realized that everything we believed in could be destroyed before our very eyes.

Please join us in honoring lives lost and remembering! Watch this inspiring movie, United 93, that shows first hand, what a few people can do to change the course and direction. There is no admission charge, and we have room for 425 people. Please make reservations by calling 419-705-3702 or email thechildrenofliberty@yahoo.com.

This event is sponsored by The Children of Liberty, in the spirit of being Americans no matter what your political perspective.

No votes yet

Yes, let us finally remind our politicians of the folly of empire. And no torture. If our leaders commit crimes and war crimes, they must be prosecuted!

Pink Slip

You forgot to mention we deserved to be attacked...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Deserved? No. Should we have been surprised and asleep at the wheel? No.

Pink Slip

First, we are tieing the hands of our intelligence agencies again today just as we had from 98-00 which caused the intelligence gap.

Secondly, it's not torture if we do it to our own service members which we do.

MikeyA

If we torture our own service members, then, yes indeed, it IS torture. Your logic that if we torture our own, then it's not torture is specious. Torture is torture, Mikey. Laws have been on the books for years outlawing the kind of behavior we engaged in... whether we did it to others or to our own troops.

"Secondly, it's not torture if we do it to our own service members which we do"

Ah yes, you must be referring to the SERE program. But the CIA inspector general's report found that the torture that was administered on detainees “was significantly different from that used in the SERE program“:

"However, the IG investigation found that the waterboarding technique used on the CIA’s detainees was significantly different from that used in the SERE program: most notably, the Agency’s interrogators used much larger volumes of water.

The IG also cites the CIA’s Office of Medical Services (OMS) in saying that the “the expertise of the SERE psychologists/interrogators … was probably misrepresented.” The IG concluded: “Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used … was either efficacious or medically safe.” In fact, the IG report also hints that the CIA didn’t consult the OMS on waterboarding until quite late: “OMS was neither consulted nor involved in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits of [enhanced interrogation techniques].”

Pink Slip

So... it's not torture because of the ammount of water used... that's what you're contending.

As far as medical is concerned what matters is there is medical personnel present not as to when they're consulted.

Besides you negate the fact that only 3 people were waterboarded. Other techniques which are considered "torture" are: prolongued standing, loud noises, sleep deprivation, time deprivation. These are not only used quite frequently in our military services but are some of the most basic techniques.

BTW - We've had Marines who, for fun, decided to waterboard each other. I've seen so much other jackassery that does worse that I wouldn't classify it as torture.

MikeyA

No that's not the only reason--there are many (controlled setting, start and stop times, safe words). The techniques you describe were taken from communist Chinese manuals on torture, used to get false confessions.

But more to the point, the military agency that ran SERE sent a letter to the Pentagon saying that these techniques were "torture" and they provide "unreliable info"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR200904...

.

Pink Slip

Sorry...seen the memos....it worked...

Try peddling your stuff to some high school kids...or some other liberals...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Which memos did you see? Can you be a little more specific? The general consensus is that torture (which is illegal) did not provide any intelligence which could not have been obtained through normal interrogation.

Pink Slip

The general consensus is that torture (which is illegal) did not provide any intelligence which could not have been obtained through normal interrogation.

Bovine excrement.

The CIA memo's finally released that showed we did in fact gain high value intel through hrash interogations..

But hey...it's OK...I know you wont be happy until KSM is released with an apology and the CIA thugs and baby killing terrorist troops are all in prison.

I wouldnt expect any less....

“When you understand the nature of a thing, you know what it is capable of.” -Miyamoto Musashi.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

"The CIA memo's finally released that showed we did in fact gain high value intel through hrash interogations.."

Horse hockey.

Frances Fragos Townsend, a Bush homeland security adviser:

"It’s very difficult to draw a cause and effect, because it’s not clear when techniques were applied vs. when that information was received. It’s implicit. It seems, when you read the report, that we got the — the — the most critical information after techniques had been applied. But the report doesn’t say that."

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/top-bush-terrorism-adviser-adm...

Pink Slip

LMAO...you get your stuff from moonbats sites like that?

No wonder you are so screwed up.

Here's how screwed up your logic has to be to believe this stuff....

progressing from A to B

A being standard forms of interogation

B being harsh techniques

They talked under standard interogation and willingly gave up terror intel....

and then we waterboarded them anyways for kicks....

Yet we DO know that the intel gained ,wasn't gained until AFTER requests were made to use the harsh techniques..

So you can keep blathering "the report doesnt say that" until your frickin blue in the face....

And the point is still as clear as day...

On a thread meant to commemorate the terror attacks of 9/11 and the victims...

The libs here are more concerned with the treatment of those who have proudly confessed to that same act of terror...

Where liberal sentiment lies is self evident.

.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Oh I know what he said....but it still doesnt mean what you imply...

There would be no need to request approval of harsh methods if standard methods had worked in the first place...

The statement stands.

And It's clear where sentiment lies...

Pinks first post speaks for itself.

To lash out and blame America...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Come on Z, you know as well as anyone that Cheney ordered torture to be administered to try and get false confessions to link Al-Qaeda and Saddam and justify the war in Iraq. That is why we used Chinese communist methods--they were designed to get false confessions, not "real intelligence". Use your noggin.

And "blaming America" is not the same as blaming Americans that break the law. Don't you have any respect for our Constitution and laws?

Pink Slip

So wait a minute....

They used chinese methods to ensure false confessions to link between iraq and Al qeada...

But then didnt use these false confessions as justification for the Iraq war well after the fact?

Sure seems like a perfectly good waste of torture...

And ofcorse you maintain the 9/11 mastermind willingly told the truth with regular methods...and then lied like hell when waterboarded?

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....yeah right...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

"But then didnt use these false confessions as justification for the Iraq war well after the fact?"

There weren't any false confessions linking Al Qaeda to Saddam as far as I know. It didn't work. But that was the plan

"And ofcorse you maintain the 9/11 mastermind willingly told the truth with regular methods..."

No, I didn't say that at all...

Nice try Ztrawman...

Pink Slip

The knowledge of intermilitary workings in this article are gravely misunderstood.

First off there is no miliary agency that runs SERE training (BTW SERE is not the only training that uses these techniques). SERE training is run by the school... of which there are several. Each school tailors SERE to it's own needs. Jump school has a different SERE package than naval aviators, aviation school has a different SERE package than Coast Guard Search and Rescue. Their tactics and techniques are all the same but each teaches to the standards and policies of it's service. I assure you Navy Safety and Training Standards evolve differently than Army Safety and Training Standards.

Additionally a memo from JPRA can only speak to the techniques effectiveness from a training standpoint not from an interrogation effectiveness standpoint. On that they can give an opinion and not an expert opinion. In training their goal is to train not to glean information. Any opinion would be merely a guess.

MikeyA

According to the JPRA website:

"JPRA assists OSD and the Joint Staff to establish PR policy and doctrine. JPRA supports the services in the development of their policy and oversees their survival, evasion, resistance, and escape training (SERE)"

"Each school tailors SERE to it's own needs"

The article clearly states that the JPRA were referring to 10 techniques that were being looked at by the Office of Legal Council. And they referred to these techniques as "torture".

Pink Slip

Once again....Liberals love Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Self confessed 9/11 mastermind.

He'll be set free before it's over...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

your horse's ass post the first time, thanks anyway.

Well hrm...

There are only two sides of this argument...

We either mistreated these terrorists...or we didnt...

By default...if you feel that we mistreated terrorists...that places you on the terrorist side of the argument...

I know you have produced the mental excuse that you are "just standing up for what's right"....

But you arent....you are standing up for self confessed terrorists who gladly massacred women and children and would do it again tomorrow tenfold if given the chance...

And thanks to people like you...they very well be given the chance again.....

We now had the leftist ACLU showing photo's of covert CIA agents to terrorists...

I Call it as I see it.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Keep in mind that while we were torturing Khalid Sheikh both England and Spain had huge terrorist attacks. Attacks that the master mind of 911 would have know about, yet he didn't give up those cells. So what good was it all for?

Please note "supports the services" this means the services have tactical control. JPRA ensures that when a technique is taught it is understood by all.

I deal with something similar. When I request a range I must do it in accordance with a joint publication: a MCO (Marine Corps Order) and a DA Pam (Dept of Army Pamphlet). They are to ensure that when one service is on a range the other service knows and understands the limitations (so everyone is speaking the same language).

But the ranges are controlled by the services and orders. Meaning I can go condition 1 (round in the chamber bolt forward) and have free movement on a MC range but when I'm on an Army range I must stay in Condition 4 (no rounds or mag inserted) until everyone is on the firing line. The difference is in the standards of training to meet mission requirements. While they are all under one umbrella order to ensure everyone understands what's going on the actual tactics are controlled by the service itself.

MikeyA

I don't agree that it reads that way. However, as previously stated--they were clearly referring specifically to the 10 techniques used (waterboarding, etc) and referred to these techniques as "torture"

Pink Slip

It doesn't read that way. Hence why I said it grossly misunderstood intermilitary workings.

MikeyA

'We've had Marines who, for fun, decided to waterboard each other. I've seen so much other jackassery that does worse that I wouldn't classify it as torture.'

I'm gonna take a wild shot in the dark and speculate that getting 'waterboarded' by your buddies 'for fun' isn't quite the same psychologically as experiencing the same treatment while in genuine captivity.

Well these are Marines who do things like this to mentally prepare themselves for death. They realize that they could end up in a room with hooded captives who won't waterboard them. They will pretend to cut their head off. Until one day they tie them to a wheel chair.... bring them into the same room.... only this time there's a black flag on the wall... a camera... and a hose... all in preparation of their own decapitation.

Everyday they know this could be the end of their life. I have a Marine who has PTSD because he thought of this same thing on a daily basis during his last deployment. I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that to him waterboarding in any form would be welcomed.

MikeyA

'We've had Marines who, for fun, decided to waterboard each other. I've seen so much other jackassery that does worse that I wouldn't classify it as torture.'

Your post, your words, included 'fun' and 'jackassery', which anyone reading is going to interpret as guys horsing around, then comparing that experience to what individuals in actual captivity undergo if they were waterboarded.

While not disrespecting your service specifically or the armed forces in general, the definition of 'torture' is not established by what Marines believe it to be by way of comparison to even more hideous techniques that may or may not be applied to them or anyone else.

I don't deflect. It's a defense mechanism. The way they deal with death and their facing of death everyday is to have fun with it.

On a Marine's locker here in my company it is written "Death laughs at us all. All a man can do is laugh back"

I say in every safety brief "Marines think they are bulletproof". They push themselves to the limits so that they push their limits. It's the reason we have more off duty deaths and suicides than the other services.

Torture has definition in the Geneva Convention and other treaties. Waterboarding is not defined in them them as such. Standing is not defined in them as such. Loud noises is not defined in them as such.

We are equally not allowed to torture our own citizens... military is included in that.

MikeyA

'Waterboarding is not defined in them as such'

In other words, the word 'waterboarding' is not specifically mentioned in the Geneva Convention, so it's not applicable? Spare me.

Let's get serious. If a man such as John McCain, who knows a thousand-fold more about 'torture' than you--or I--interprets waterboarding as 'torture' and 'illegal'--that should be good enough for the both of us.

If it's not good enough for you, more's the pity.

Never Take a Rino to an Elephant fight....

McCain was briefed in 2006 by the CIA.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1919523,00.html?imw=Y

Oh he also says we shouldnt investigate the CIA...you agree with him on that too?

Somehow I doubt it....you most likely detest the man...but he's a convenient clup to beat people with

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

LOL

Why would I detest McCain?

He selected a runningmate that assured an Obama victory.

Most likely, you're the one who detests him, on that basis alone. But, that's your pile to deal with.

Now, you provide a link where McCain denies he told the CIA what the Bush administration claims he said regardng sleep deprivation.

Aren't you sharp as a tack.

McCain was briefed ...the point of the article...and raised few objections.

Point remains.

I dont detest McCain for Picking Palin...it's the only reason I voted for him at all...

I detest McCain for being a giant liberal suckass...and trying to pass amnesty for illegal aliens in McCain- Kennedy...

He runs accross the isle more than a congressional page...and gets a reach around...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

'A former senior intelligence official familiar with Hayden's discussions with Congress also says Hayden had one short meeting with McCain, in the Senate cloakroom, but doesn't recall the details of that discussion. But, the official adds, "Hayden has never claimed that the committees told him, "You're good to go, no problem." A CIA spokesperson declined to comment on the dispute.

It figures you'd think McCain is a flaming liberal. Palin, Plumber Sam, the schleb who heckles Ben Konop from his porch (and then later shares a casual beer with him while the cameras roll) and the moron congressman who shouts 'liar' during a presidential speech on health care represent the current high-end standards of conservative...'thought.'

What a laugh riot.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27015.html

We stage mock executions and threaten to kill the children of our service members? Wow our armed forces are messed up!

Liberals love Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

He'll be set free before it's over...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

NO!

 KEEP HIM IN GITMO. OR EXECUTE HIM.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

Well you're contending that that's torture? You can't be serious.

MikeyA

Sorry...Sept 11th is now the national day of service to our dear leader.....you were allowed to observe 9/11 from Sept 4th through 6th according to presidential proclomation

HERE:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Presidential-Proclamation-Nat...

Sorry you missed it...

Please make a note of it for next year.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

I'll never forget that our Constitution demands our legitimate president must be a natural born citizen. The fraud and foreigner, the president usurper Obama/Soetoro/Obama, has arrogantly refused to bring his documents to light and fails to respect We The People and our Republic.

The treacherous Obama and his cultic regime are inflicting far more damage upon the United States than 9/11.

The Third Jihad, the newest offering from the producers of the award-winning documentary film, Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West, explores the growth of radical Islam in America. The film, narrated by devout Muslim American Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, opens with the following statement: “This is not a film about Islam. It is about the threat of radical Islam. Only a small percentage of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are radical. This film is about them.”

ack double post

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.