Nothing is wrong with Canadian and British health care - just be quiet and let us force this through

Of course we all know that a couple of posters on this board said that the Canadian and British system is one to emulate and asked what is wrong with their system. Still think so? This is what Obama wants for us and the "shovel ready" patients - BMV style healthcare. I can't wait now just be quiet while we railroad this through.

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Forget the fact that they spend waaaaaaaay less than we do, no one is proposing either system for us.

BTW - here is the difference between the two.

health care is still government run. I think that the 538 link proves even though they are different they still have the same problem - government run.

I guess waiting in an emergency room for 24 hours is our "sacrifice" Obama is telling us we have to make.

Problem is, that Obamacare will do nothing to lower costs because it just adds more money to the mix.

This is just the Democrats wanting to make an issue out of nothing. A few months ago healthcare was not on the radar of most Americans, but back in January and Feburary Ds were salivating that they can finally ram this through. But given how Obama's numbers are dropping and how many people hate the Democratic controlled Congress, well there will be a big surprise next year.

Go ahead and ram this through, that will be the final nail in the coffin for the 2010 elections.

First of all, we currently have a health care system that rations care. Let me repeat! We currently, in the United States of America, have a rationing system for health care. We ration care by the ability to pay.

We have senior citizens NOW every day in America today, deciding whether to pick up and pay for their prescriptions, or buy food. We have senior citizens NOW in this country every day deciding which prescriptions they can afford and which they can't. When my father was alive, he would not take any prescription which he could not get through the VA or of which one of his doctors did not have free samples, In America, in this decade!! After my father died and the medical bills and nursing home bills took everything my mother had left, she did get her dialysis treatments, her prescriptions, and all of her medical bills paid my medicaid...AFTER SHE LOST EVERYTHING!! She left NO ESTATE, NOTHING ZILCH!!

That's America today. Real life today in America.

The government couldn't and wouldn't make things worse than they are under the giant corporate blood sucking insurance companies that dominate the medical field today. On another thread I posted two real life events that happened more recently to my family. Here they are again.

My adult daughter has allergy problems and asthma (which the "lucky" child inherited from me). Her asthma was growing worse. I told her about my doctor giving me a prescription for Singulair, and that she should ask her doctor about it. Her doctor told her, "Your insurnace company doesn't like paying for Singulair". Some insurance bureaucrat is deciding what drugs a physician can and cannot prescribe NOW, TODAY, in America. I guess that, in your mind, Chris, it's OK for an insurance bureaucrat to decide what drugs people can or cannot take. It's only bad if a government bureaucrat makes a decision that can harm one's health!

My wife and I received a letter from our Primary Care Physician a few weeks ago. He is now part of the UT Medical Group. As such, he only has "privileges" at the UT Medical Hospital, AND he could only refer us to specialists who are in that group! One of the bureaucracies that controls health care in Toledo now limits the decisions that my PCP can make for my wife and me.

And BTW...Obama's plan does NOT call for the govenrment to run any hospital or any doctor's practice!! It is NOT LIKE the national helath care systems in Britain or Canada!! It would offer medical insurance to those who cannot afford such insurance from traditional BLOOD-SUCKING, HEARTLESS giant insurance corporations. If the government runs everything as badly as you and other neo-cons claim the government does, why are you and the giant BLOOD-SUCKING, HEARTLESS insurance companies so afraid of this competition? I thought that competition is the life's blood of the capitalisitic economic system. If the government does everything so badly, the Obama program will be a complete flop, and the insurance companies will thrive!!

Dale - a couple of the complaints you have would likely not go away with a government provided health care option...

1) That doctor who only has privileges at UTMC would likely still only refer patients to specialists who are affiliated with UTMC. (Your doctor would want to be able to follow up on patients who were admitted to the hospital - if he only has privileges at UTMC, then it stands to reason that he'd keep his patients within that system.) If you don't like that, then you have the choice to find a physician affiliated with another hospital(s). Note that he sent that letter you mentioned to ALL of his patients, including the ones on Medicare.

2) Re: the Singulair. That issue isn't likely to go away with a government/public option either. There will still be formulary drug lists and efforts to control costs. There will still be people who want a brand-name drug that they won't have coverage for.

(Note - I'm not opposed to healthcare reform. I just want people to have realistic expectations and realize that many of their complaints will still exist under a public option. A public option will help more people have access to basic coverage, which is a good thing. But its not going to give everyone access to all the coverage they want.)

here, Dale, that in your first example of your elderly parents both were part of government run health care systems, Medicare and the VA system. Both failures. I work in health care and I deal everyday trying to explain the limitations of Medicare and it's benefits to my elderly population.
Now Medicaid on the other hand, also government run, I don't have to explain anything to that population, THEY explain it to me how it's going to be, because there is no limitations on them and the services, for the most part, they receive. They have been allowed free reign for so long, it is long out of control.
Now the Singulair issue, I assume is your daughter's insurance company way to cut costs by limiting access to an expensive drug that has no cheaper generic available yet. Singulair's patent does not run out until 2012, and there may be other similar drug options that are available. But this brings up the point with a problem with health care ...follow the money...the drug companies, the medical equipment companies. If the suppliers of our health care needs lowered their costs, health care costs could decrease also and our insurance companies wouldn't have to limit our access.
Everyone seems to agree that we need health care reform, what we can't agree on is how that reform is achieved and how much government needs to be a part of the health care for those that still have their own insurance.

".....None so blind as those that will not see. They have baffled their own consciences, and so they walk on in darkness.” ~~~Matthew Henry~~~

Medicare and the VA "both failures"? Medicare's been going strong for almost 50 years and as for the VA:

“An answer came in 2003, when the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a study that compared veterans health facilities on 11 measures of quality with fee-for-service Medicare. On all 11 measures, the quality of care in veterans facilities proved to be ’significantly better.’”

— “The Annals of Internal Medicine recently published a study that compared veterans health facilities with commercial managed-care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients. In seven out of seven measures of quality, the VA provided better care.”

— “Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals.”

Pink Slip

The local VA treated my father very well. I went with him on many visits. They were kind, respectful, and thorough. Every medical facility has its problems. The difference between you and me, aimee, is that you assume that private is always good, and public is always bad. NOT TRUE!!! Overall, Medicare and AARP supplemental insurance were both fine, too. The main problems both of my parents had was the high cost of drugs, and that Medicare won't pay for "Assisted Living" facilities, and only for a limited stay in a nursing home. VA and Medicare problems are mostly related to being limited in what they can do. We need an expansion of these government programs so that they can pay for more.

I know that one local "private" hospital is responsible for the untimely death of a friend of mine. That hospital would not admit a middle-aged man with chest pains from their ER, because he had the angina pain without showing measureable signs of a heart attack...yet. They may well have been following guidelines produced by an insurance bureaucrat based upon a cost-benefit analysis that had nothing to do with patient welfare. They sent him home with a flu diagnosis. He died at home that night of an actual heart attack before he could be transported to a hospital. Yes! He was fully insured. That's our so-called "greatest health care system in the history of the world" for you!

FYI...most hospitals are now run by insurance companies!

"But given how Obama's numbers are dropping and how many people hate the Democratic controlled Congress, well there will be a big surprise next year. "

Couple of things here:

1. Republicans in Congress are polling worse than Dems. The only thing worse than Congressional Democrats is Congressional Republicans.

2. Obama's numbers are falling in part due to dissatisfaction among liberals. He's doing his damndest to avoid a public option, and this is a non-starter for liberals. Healthcare reform without a public option is simply another corporate handout.

Pink Slip

Very true. I'm not happy with Obama at all. He isn't nearly Liberal enough! He ran on Public Option, he got elected on the Public Option, I want the Public Option!

You guys seriously crack me up. Not Liberal Enough?

Did you see the "Stimulus Bill" or the "Omnibus Spending Bill" or the "Cap and Trade" bill? IMHO, he is being VERY liberal in his spending habits, which is why people are not happy with him.

The Stimulus Bill wasn't nearly big enough and the Obama gave way too many tax credits away for too few Republican votes.

As a matter of fact the biggest protion of the Stimulus Bill spent so far has been tax cuts. If the Bill isn't working fast enough, it must be that Tax cuts don't work.

Even News Corp's Wall Streen Jounal thinks the Stimulus Bill is starting to work:

U.S. Economy Gets Lift From Stimulus

Agreed. Most credible economists (the ones that indicated a crash was coming) advocated for a much larger stimulus.

Cap & trade is not nearly strict enough in capping CO2. Most liberals are unhappy in that the initial credits are just going to be given to coporations, rather than having them pay. Also, if I remember correctly, the cap & trade legislation would prevent the EPA from regulating CO2 as a pollutant.

Pink Slip

I never said that I thought that the Obama health care plan would solve all of our health care problems. I am sick of reading the lies about how great our health care system is now, and how any government plan will lead to rationing and old people dying who are now saved. We already have rationing of health care, and many Americans of all ages, but especially the elderly, have their lives cut short under the current system that subjugates the wisdom and training of doctors and other health care professionals to the "expertise" of insurance bureaucrats from giant corporations, whose only motivation is the "bottom line". They couldn't care less about you and me!.

I know the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". As my friends with whom I grew up in the inner city of Toledo would say, "Our health care system is bad 'broke'"! The Obama Plan would at least provide health care coverage for more, perhaps all Americans. It's a huge step forward!

I agree with everything dalep said. Isn't surprising either, that the insurance co's are the ones fighting health care reform the loudest. Pure greed.

I do appreciate the support. And I honestly and sincerely believe that we're both right about giant insurance corporations and their giant bureaucracies.

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