TPS graduation rate falls to 34% according to Edweek

The latest graduation numbers from Edweek have come out, and TPS's graduation rate has fallen to 34.5% compared to 69.2% for national average. There is a wide discrepency between these third party reports and the reports the local school districts and state puts together, but that is because the local school districts and state have to have high numbers to stay under the No Child Left Behind radar. But the difference is getting quite large, especially since TPS is reporting a 80some percent graduation rate.
The trend (TPS - National):
2006 34.5% 69.2%
2005 44.2% 70.6%
2004 37.0% 70.0%

Where does TPS lose its students? Percent of student lost by grade (TPS - National):
9th grade 54.0% 31.3%
10th grade 30.2% 26.1%
11th grade 12.9% 18.9%
12th grade 3.0% 23.6%

For the complete report, please see:


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From the Upjohn KZoo Promise Program:

The CPI can be roughly interpreted as a PREDICTION, based on only two school years of data, of the ratio between the number of 9th graders and the number of graduates four years later. The cumulative promotion index is NOT a measure of a high school’s graduation rate (or a district’s graduation rate). The CPI in part depends upon the dropout rate during high school, but it also depends upon the rate at which students are retained in the same grade during high school and upon the net in-migration and out-migration of students during high school. The CPI will be lower if more students are retained in a grade even if all students eventually graduate. If retained students tend to drop out, the CPI will exaggerate the dropout rate of the typical entering student because retained students are essentially counted twice. In addition, high schools or districts that lose more students to other districts than they gain during high school will have a lower CPI.

For example, suppose that there is a high school or district with no in-migration or out-migration during high school, with a stable district population by grade level over time. Suppose there are typically 900 entering 9th graders. Suppose 300 are typically retained in 9th grade. After attending
9th grade for a second year, all of these retained students drop out of high school. Then the typical 9th grade class will have 1200 students, and the number of students in all grades from 10th to 12th and the number of graduates will typically be 600 students. The CPI will be 50 percent. However, the probability of graduation of the typical entering 9th grader is 66.7 percent.

Suppose further that from grade to grade, 60 students transfer out of the school to other schools each year, while 30 students transfer in. Then the typical number of students in 10th grade will be 570, 11th grade will be 540, and 12th grade and the number of graduates will be 510. The CPI will end up equaling 510/1200= 42.5%. However, the probability of graduating from some high school (not necessarily this high school) of the typical entering freshman will still be 66.7%.

Therefore, the CPI should NOT be interpreted as the typical entering student’s probability of graduating from high school in four years.

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

Yeah-yeah-yeah--what we really need is more democrats and a stronger teachers union, and more money to spend-and happy days will be here again

...if this makes a statement?

Graduation Rate for All Students, Class of 2006 - 66.1%

District Performance Score - 108.8

I post this because this is the district Tom Maher, a former candidate to be the Toledo Public Schools Superintendant, ran until the end of 2006.

Aint we lucky that Jack Ford was appointed to the school board because of his 'connections in Columbus'.. WTF did that get us?

read about Francis Dumbuya, someone who was turned down.

"As ye sow, so shall ye reap"

Nice one. Thanks for the post, especially the part about Tom Maher.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Well, I suppose that TPS could count each student individually in a massive follow-up study. They've got an entire summer to do it along with a bunch of school teachers who have nothing else to do and are presumably capable of processing qualitative data. The problem is, what will TPS do when the graduation rate is still too low?

Someone remind me how much is being spent per student to educate these little geniuses, and then explain why a real school voucher system won't work.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

instead of continually blaming TPS.

The real problem is the home environment. The parents are the primary role models. When dad is slingin' and mom is ho' in, why do people blame the school system ????

TPS are not a bunch of magicians that can turn delinquents into honor students.


The TPS administration and teachers are our employees. We can make whatever demands upon them that we wish. If you don't like it, submit your resignation from the school system.

IN ADDITION, teachers and administrators are professionals. They have degrees and certifications. They are CERTIFIED to be educators. So it's only sane to expect them to EDUCATE, despite shortfalls. As a professional myself, I can get the job done despite serious problems that would stop the project otherwise from moving forward. And I don't whine like a little BITCH about it, either.

Note that you don't require a certification to put your penis into a vagina and eventually produce a child. Luckily for us, we have CERTIFIED educators to make up for whatever home life failings that result from that uncontrolled placement of penis in vagina.

Oh! Oh wait, those CERTIFIED teachers and administrators are now saying that despite their professional and EXPENSIVE qualifications, they are not actually responsible for the quality of their work product.

Well, since that's the case, GW, it only stands to reason that we need to staff up the schools with NON-professional teachers and administrators, since if we're not going to get certified results, then let's get the same poor results CHEAPER.

Moron. LOL!

I am neither a moron or a bitch.

I am curious as to what kind of a "professional" that you are. You probably do not deal with helping and positively influencing people on a regular basis. You certainly are not an educator. A professional auto detailer fits your definition.
So tell me GZ - thrill me with your acumen...what do you do "professionally" in life to positively impact our society ?

As far as debate, to begin with, a teacher is certified to be an educator - math, history, english, etc. They are not certified for nor should they be expected to undo all the negative influences that are present in a child's home life. THAT is a parent's responsibility.

Six hours of positive education and influence are easily overridden by the remaining 18 hours of negative influence and education that a child receives when they return home.

And do not think that a child does not get an education at home - his teacher there (primary role model) teaches him, thru precept and example, to either sleep till noon, be unemployed and lazy, steal for a living, be less than honest, smoke crack, get drunk, blame others for their shortcomings, fight, use foul and abusive language, expect the state to feed and house a person, etc. - OR - to be responsible for your own actions and get up to go to work, act honestly and honorably, help others, control anger, treat others with respect, etc. That 'home teaching' certainly affects a child's approach to the educational process and helps determine whether a child will be a success in school or not.

You neither can nor should you make whatever demands upon teachers that you wish. Just because a teacher is a public employee you seem to want to let parents abdicate all responsibility as a child's primary role model in their life and put that responsibility upon the school system. "...we have CERTIFIED educators to make up for whatever home life failings..."
Pure Hogwash.

A thousand CERTIFIED and EXPENSIVE educators can not be expected to undo the harm and influence exerted on a child by a faulty and negligent primary role model.

A child looks to their parents first.
How many times have you heard an older person say "I became my dad" or "I became my mom".

Dois-je en dire plus ?

Nope, sorry GW, when you so vigorously defend such a glaringly erroneous position, the moron label is firmly attached and duly done.

My professional qualification is that when you call me to fix your phone or computer or communications problems, no matter how badly you describe the problem, or how poorly I'm equipped, or how f*cked up the entire workorder is ... I WILL FIX IT or I WILL GET IT INSTALLED. That's ample demonstration of how a real professional deals with REAL LIFE and COMMON PROBLEMS ... which in the WWII era was lovingly called SNAFU. LOL!

Nothing annoys me more than having a PROFESSIONAL be called in to fix a problem or perform a service, and then I have to listen to a list of reasons why said "professional" just can't get the f*cking work done. Hey, JERK: Corporate America makes it as hard as possible to get work done, since there are too many bean-counters making sure you don't have enough beans.

Since nothing annoys me like that, you can only imagine how furious I become when a person with 4-6 years of education and a certification process claims that she can't be held responsible for her work product.

You love to use that term "responsibility", but it's deuced odd that you can't seem to apply it in the clearly obvious manner I've related.


It isn't deuced odd. She seeks to discredit the source because she can't defend her position.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

GZ - fixing a computer is not the same as "fixing" a child. I'd going to go out on a limb here and assume you have no children.

I too fix computer/software. in the end, I can pull out any part I want and replace it, I can rewrite or reinstall any piece of basically nothing like a child.

Hell, I can be looking a computer a couple of years old decide that the thing isn't even worth my time to look at and just go get a new one.... again nothing like a child.

If the customer is being a dick I can tell them I'm not interested in their business.... nothing like a school.

I have multiple friends who are school teachers. The stories they tell are heart breaking. Kids coming to school hungry, dirty closes, little of no sleep...those are the "nicer" stores. They see some really bad stuff.

SensorG, we're talking about professionalism, not your bias against technicians.

I have 5 children who call me "Uncle GuestZero" with great frequency. When required, I look after them when the parents are unable.

You might be hearing a "snap" sound about now. That was your weight on the limb causing it to break. :^)

I must return your attention to the PROFESSIONALISM idea. These teachers are trained to deal with children. Therefore they are responsible to a great degree for getting those children to learn. Again, I beg the question:

Why do we hire professionals if they refuse to take responsibility for their work product?

Would you hire ANY professional who refused to do that? A lawyer who said "I don't take responsibility for my legal conclusions"? A doctor who said "I don't take responsibility for my medical errors"? A technician who said "I don't take responsibility for my repairs and installations to work"?

Sens, you're giving these teachers a "free pass" (a term well used by another poster), and I'm essentially daring you to justify it. LOL!

Now I must forward an idea, since you've sparked it: EDUCATIONAL MALPRACTICE INSURANCE. Lawyers have E&O insurance. Doctors have medical malpractice insurance. So why not so with teachers?

GZ, I’ve been an Uncle for 15 years and a parent for 5. Being an uncle is not the same as being a parent, not even close, but I digress.

Are there bad teachers? You bet. Should they be hired and fired based on their talent and ability? Again, yes…

In the end the parents own the education of their children. If it’s first grade and your child comes home and can’t read to you, YOU should do something about it. Whether its go to the school and kick ass, work with your child or get a tutor to play catch up.

A single teacher with 30 students and 5 or 6 troubled kids can pretty much grind a classroom to a halt. Once again, go talk to a teacher who works in a central city elementary school and ask them about their kids. There are some truly heart breaking stories.

What I’d like to see - I’d like to see 12-15 kids per class, plus a parent volunteer in all class rooms 6th grade and below.

Lastly, bias against technicians? Some of my best friends are technicians. :)

I've realized that you used a debate technique to drag me into various irrelevancies, Sens.

So, regardless of my individual status, it's still true that as professionals, teachers are responsible for their work product. I could be a single street bum making this statement, and it would be as true as if I was a multiply-degreed educational executive with 8 children at home.

You also said: «In the end the parents own the education of their children.»

Yes, because we own the school system, and if it fails to perform, we can not only reorganize it, but can fire the nonperformers out of it. Do you disagree?

As for your children-per-class ratio, Sens, you have that power. Just put FISCAL CONSERVATIVES in charge of the TPS Board, instead of the consistent union-supporter dirtbags who only believe in avoiding professional responsibility. You see, fiscal conservatives don't just try to save money; they are also keenly interested in measuring VALUE for the money spent. That leads to enforcement of responsibility.

it's still true that as professionals, teachers are responsible for their work product

Yes to the extent of the input of raw material into the work product isn’t bad or defective to start with.

I can’t eat cheese burgers and drink beer for 4 meals per day for 6 years and then expect my doctor as a “professional” to save me from obesity and heart disease without me taking responsibility.

Parents are that responsibly.

Process control is still the responsibility of the worker, not the material.

Again, you're trying to argue that a teacher who cannot produce learned students can earn a paycheck each week and "earn" his way into retirement on that basis. I assure you that that's absurd. Like in all things, you must either produce, or be replaced. As your employer I have every right to make that demand. If you don't like that demand, then quit.

but you have taken a serious turn for the worse these past 2 years.

Are you on drugs ? Smoking crack ??? Hair - o - wan ?
Stress getting to you from your "professional" job ????

Name calling becoming your favored defense-mechanism ????

Reaching for those 'power' words a little more often ????

Take a vacation.


It's not as if your point wasn't apt. The parents have to take responsibility. That's obvious and sane. BUT ... the parents are NOT our employees, and we can't actually control them. Sure, we can try to apply social punishments for their misapplication of duty. But other than using the stick, there's really no other tool to use ... except Liberal Fascism, which I will fight with all concentration.

Other than the ONE WORD to which you took the most umbrage, what was it that I said that is debatable?

Eagerly, I await your response.

GZ not only makes sense, he made it crystal clear.

Educators sole endeavour is to educate children. a good educator graduates prepared for life children. Educators don't strive for Master's Degrees just to watch children sit and stare.

and the children are supposed to soak this education like a sponge.

once you get to school, everything else is supposed to be set aside and focus on being educated.

has nothing to do with "parental involvement". altho it is encouraged, it's not mandatory for parents to participate in "parent-teacher conferences" .

parental involvement in a child's education differs greatly from a teacher's involvement.

he is clear as mud to me.

And as usual, you prove to be a dildo with your disconnected thoughts and rambling mini-diatribes that are meaningless.

Children are with an educator for 6 hours a day. They then return to their home environment for the remaining 18 hours. In your mind, the 6 hours of "sole endeavor" is supposed to override the influences of the next 18 hours.

That is unrealistic and delusional thinking. Parents are the primary role models in a child's life. Children learn by example. Parental involvement has nothing to do with parent-teacher conferences. It has everything to do with demonstrating thru word and action how to be successful in life. How to get up in the morning and go to work, acting honestly in life, treating others with respect.... these are basics that should be taught at home, not school.

Why do I have this basic conversation with you, BIVF ????

Everyone else seems to understand the importance of having good role models in the home to foster a child's success in life.

Yet you want to present the idea that when a child comes from a disabling environment, attends school for 6 hours with a teacher whose "sole endeavor" is to educate the child, then returns to the same disabling environment - the school system is to blame for the child's failure in life.

Now how inaccurate is that ???

The argument is tiring. The public school employees blame everyone but themselves. They accept the paycheck, the benefits (which are significant) and the accolades for successful students while at the same time the school rejects all responsibility for its failures.

This is unacceptable.

Tell me, GhostWriter, why parents are not allowed to monitor their own children's class while it's in session? While you're at it, explain exactly how the public school system has managed to attract employees that are far superior to any in the private sector? After all, school teachers are never fired, reprimanded or demoted. Are they?

From GhostWriter: Children are with an educator for 6 hours a day.

Maybe a part of the solution is to increase that time to 8 hours a day, and eliminate a very large part of the traditional summer vacation. Would those things help?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

why parents are not allowed to monitor their own children's class while it's in session?

They are--in some private schools, and some parents take advantage of it when they feel necessary.

Are parents truly 'Not allowed" to be in public school classrooms? Is this a written rule? I have to agree that classrooms should be open to parents with limits.

There are guidelines to viewing at my child's would be disruptive if every parent showed up on the same day.

I'm well aware that parents are allowed and even encouraged to monitor classes in private schools and in Ottawa Hills schools. Just try it in any public school and the school authorities will report you as a child molester trolling for new victims.

I suppose if there were enough interest one or more web cams could be set up. The technology is cheap and the class could be reviewed later on.

How about it, Ghostwriter? What's your answer?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

I was hesitant to reply any further in this thread because this argument IS tiring, as said previously.

To allow parents unlimited access to classrooms to monitor classes that their children are in is problematic in a number of ways;

First, there are physical limitations as to space.
In our crowded classrooms, where would our "caring" parents observe from ? And what happens when they get tired of standing and demand to be seated ? What if all 30 children have a parent or two show up on the same day ?

Secondly, the parents would disrupt the teaching process. Can you see PureHate in a classroom merely 'observing' ? Every parent would have their own opinion and would want to be recognized IMMEDIATELY for their suggestions. And not merely suggestions in a dignified way....they would DEMAND that the teacher do this and do would disrupt the learning environment. Trying to control the parents in that scenario brings to mind the idea of herding cats.......did you ever try that ????
Everyone wants to go his/her own way.

The idea of video cams with remote viewing locations does seem to have merit.
I will look for you at the next TPS Board meeting to advance that idea, MadMan.
After all, it is easy to sit behind a keyboard and TELL people what to do to improve the is quite another to get up off your ass and set those ideas in motion.
Which type of person are you ?

I eagerly await your reply.

actually, MadMan, that is a very good suggestion.

MadMan. Ha! That's funny. I use MadJack, so she calls me MadMan. I'd expect that kind of thing from an elementary school child who has been put into a difficult or embarrassing situation. Children at that age have no emotional maturity, you see. But then, that would be something every school teacher should know. I wonder if that's what you do in class, GhostWriter. Is that how you respond to your students when they ask you difficult questions? I hope not, but I suspect it is. What do you think that teaches them when you call them names or ridicule them from your lofty bully pulpit?

To allow parents unlimited access to classrooms to monitor classes that their children are in is problematic in a number of ways;

Then how do other schools manage it?

In our crowded classrooms, where would our "caring" parents observe from ? And what happens when they get tired of standing and demand to be seated ? What if all 30 children have a parent or two show up on the same day ?

You tip your hand when you put "caring" in quotes. In your opinion, the parents don't care about their children, and it shows. To respond to your "problematic" objections, the parents would be provided with a comfortable chair in either the back or front of the class, off to one side where they could observe both the class and the instructor. If all 60 parents show up unannounced on the same day for the same class, count yourself fortunate and pass the problem along to the principal of the school. That's what the principal is there for.

Secondly, the parents would disrupt the teaching process. Can you see PureHate in a classroom merely 'observing'?

No, quite frankly, I can't. I have a vivid imagination, but I will be the first to proclaim loudly that if anyone needed proof of Divinity or Divine Intervention, witnessing Prnhrt sitting in a classroom and quietly observing without interrupting or disturbing the class should be all the proof anyone would need.

Every parent would have their own opinion and would want to be recognized IMMEDIATELY for their suggestions. And not merely suggestions in a dignified way....they would DEMAND that the teacher do this and do would disrupt the learning environment.

Now we have the real objection at last. How painful was that to write, GhostWriter? You're quite correct, I hope. The parents may well have a few suggestions or an honest criticism or two. You and the rest of the instructors would be coerced into changing your teaching methods (35% graduation) and have to do something different. That would take a lot of effort on your part. What if the parents observing your class weren't unskilled labor, but were white collar workers or entrepreneurs with at least a bachelor's degree, or perhaps a master's or even a PhD. That would tend to give their criticisms a little more credibility, but it wouldn't make the criticisms any less valid, and given the graduation rate I think it's 15 years past time that a few parents got together and voiced a criticism or two.

The idea of video cams with remote viewing locations does seem to have merit.
I will look for you at the next TPS Board meeting to advance that idea, MadMan.

A very safe and, most importantly, non-productive suggestion coupled with emotional immaturity intended to discredit the source. That's a logical fallacy, but I'm sure you learned all about that kind of thing when you slept through Philosophy 101. If the public school teachers really wanted the parents to be involved in their children's education, they would have made web cams a part of the last union negotiation. They didn't. The most obvious reason being that it's easy to sit in an insulated classroom with a bunch of children and put in your time. It's certainly easier than addressing the other points I brought up, such as a standard 8 hour work day coupled with a much shorter summer vacation.

I eagerly await your reply.

You didn't have to wait long, did you?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

is the game that you try to engage me in, MadMan.

YOU were the one to initially suggest the idea of video cams in the classroom, and then flip it over on me
as MY suggestion. And berate me to boot. Too funny.

So will I see you at TPS Board meeting next to initiate your call for video cams or are you the type of armchair/keyboard societal repairman that I have you pegged as ?

You call my post berating? I think GZ is right. You'd better develop a thicker skin. Oh, but wait. You aren't encountering elementary students here who have to kowtow to your authority, least they fall afoul of your own intemperate actions; name calling, public ridicule, howling like a fish wife. You'd fit right in at any TPS board meeting.

If the statistics originally quoted are to be believed, you and the other Toledo teachers have achieved a 60% failure rate. I can't think of any other industry where this would be tolerated.

The failure here is you, GhostWriter. You are a failure. In and of itself, that wouldn't be much of a tragedy if the damage due to your failure was confined to you and your family, but that isn't the case. You failed to educate six out of every ten students assigned to you, and because you failed those students will have a harder life than they would have had otherwise.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

"...and the children are supposed to soak this education like a sponge."

Herein lies a big part of the problem with education in America--
Yeats wisely sums it up.

"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."

Our teachers are trained to "fill buckets" or to soak their charges with knowledge that they just soak up, like sponges. But even adulats don't "absorb" what people are lecturing and parroting unless they are inspired. Teachers DO have the ability to inspire and ignite learning, but they have to approach teaching differently...and they DO need parental support/ or home intervention to be 100% successful.

educators have a thankless job, as you well know.

For Biff to make that kind of an absurd statement indicates his lack of knowledge and understanding of the learning process.

are you going to use, Gary?

just wondering.....

NO ... teachers are trained to be educators, not to just relate facts in some sort of drone. What is teacher education really composed of, Helen?

With all this talk of buckets and sponges, I'm thinking We The People would be better served if we re-purposed all those out-of-work janitors to be teachers. Filling buckets and soaking sponges are well in their skillsets.

seeing you're just trying to place the onus of educating a child on the parent and giving educators a free pass, it's very innaccurate.

This has nothing to do about parents educating a child, it's about the accountability of qualified educators churning out a quality product with the utensils provided. That's all.

Sure, it would be nice for the parent to reinforce the education, but most parents lack the training and abilities to place the education at the child's feet. (unless the child is "home-schooled", but I digress.)

But I do know that if the parents failure to involve themselves in their child's education, I would certainly hope that a qualified and degreed teacher would be there to properly educate the child.

Fostering a child's success in life again differs greatly from the education the child receives to prepare the child for graduation.

But kudos to the parents that reinforce the education as well as instill an ethical and moral foundation which has nothing to do with math, english and social studies.

24- 6 hours in school = 18 remain
8 to10 hours sleeping = 8-10 remain
4 to 5 hours out of doors with friends = 4 or so hours of parental interaction.

I don't buy the 35% graduation rate since I don't believe they factor in the students that transfer in and out of the system but I am not going to sit here and call TPS blameless because I know better. There are too many administrators, too much politics and the union acts to protect the union, not the students or even the individual teachers for that matter. People have a right to expect better. GZ, when was the last time you had a customer kick you while you were trying to install a system for them? I don't know what the TPS policy is about having a parent monitor a class because I never asked. When I asked for a conference I got it. Frankly, there probably are many parents that could sit through a class without causing a disruption, but I have met or heard of plenty of them that I wouldn't want in class if I was a teacher.

Why are the "latest" numbers from Edweek 3 years old?

"GZ, when was the last time you had a customer kick you while you were trying to install a system for them?"

You misunderstand, Bob. The customers only yell. The technology itself does the kicking. And I have to handle both.

If you're going to carry the metaphor, please get it right.

Like SensorG, you're betraying a bias against technicians. Well, we're all trained to do our work, right? So why do teachers get a pass on their work product? When the rest of us do NOT? WELL?!?!

you wise men (I am assuming) know me so well that you think that I would cause a disruption in a TPS classroom. There needs to be a disruption in TPS classrooms if only because so many of the students are failing.

Actually, I cause disruptions in my own classroom as I have homeschooled my children for the last 16 years. One is getting ready to graduate from BGSU in Aug, They are very disciplined children/adults, think for themselves, have never been in trouble and will be contributing members of society.

I also have a daycare business with an open door policy to parents. I encourage and invite parents to visit, interact, help out with their children and the other children. The children that I care for after school, before school or during the summer, that attend TPS schools NEED someone to come into their classrooms and disrupt the climate of failure,

The ones who attend private schools and some charter schools are more disciplined, have learned more and have age appropriate social skills. The children who attend a TPS school are not learning as much, are unruly and have horrible social skills. All of the parents come from the same social economic background, it's the school stupid.

I have one child who attended the Ag Center (which is a story in and of itself) as a homeschooled student and has a 3.7 GPA. She will graduate 2010 and go to college like her other siblings. These children come from a horrible background, a rasta mother full of hate and low comprehension, disruptive, ignorant, nitwit lying druggie with dirty hair. Yet these children are thriving in their school environment (homeschool).

Why? Because the teacher knows that the student is a reflection of her/him and has absolutely nothing to do with the parent. Try to figure that one out you wise men of Swamp bubbles.

I see what you are saying, but doesn't the fact that these kids are no longer in the original parenting environment have an effect on their success?

They may have come from "a horrible background, a rasta mother full of hate and low comprehension, disruptive, ignorant, nitwit lying druggie with dirty hair," but they succeeded when there was someone at home who values education and was dedicated to them and their well being.

It is clear from your post that YOU, as a parent, have been a big part of why these kids are achieving.

pureheart appears to be the exception to the rule as far as parents of school-age children. She has taken the initiative and became INVOLVED in her children's lives and education.

The children in TPS with the most problems are the ones that have parents that are not involved in their lives. The parent sends the child to school and expects the school to wave a magic wand and instantly make a success of their child with little or no input from the parent.

Input does NOT mean the critiqueing of the teacher and school system.. Input is construed as input into the child's overall successful development as a human being. Feed them, nurture them, love them.....
and you will get a better finished product.

The children in TPS with the most problems are the ones that have parents that are not involved in their lives.

That would be all 66.5% of them. You know, the ones that didn't graduate.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

the children come first. I have to get back to working on my lesson plans.

I'll try to come up with some magical way to hold their attention for 6 class hours and magically they will overcome all the negative influences exerted on them by the dope dealer on the corner, the gang down the street, violent and disrespectful hollywood movie stars, rappers that preach violence, fathers that do not work, uninvolved parents, empty kitchen pantries, etc.

After all, I have the degree.  I am certified and therefore, according to BrainZero, I am expected to overcome and "make up for whatever home life failings" that a child has in their life.

From now on please refer to me as Merlin the Magician......


It's frankly disturbing how often you refer to "magic" for what WE, your employers, call "professionalism". Again, you're trained as teachers at handling students. Why aren't you? Do you require MORE education? What's missing in your professional portfolio of ideas and methods?

In effect, if you can be degreed and certified, yet cannot account for the end results of your work, then you're saying the degrees and certifications are irrelevant. Hey, that's GOOD NEWS for us, your employers ... since we can hire much cheaper employees to get the same job done.

the source of this drama.

I am about tired of watching Gary antagonizing the posters here on the "crux of the topic" while he "allegedly" confuses the "professionalism" and "responsibility" of what an educator is to exhibit while doing their job with the alleged failure of a parent in teaching their own children while confusing the child with miscellaneous distractions which, in Gary's eyes", prevent a child from receiving an education from a college-degreed educator, who so happens to be the one responsible for educating this child.

But I guess repeated inhalation of stainless steel cleaner provoked him to altering his post above directed at GZ and removing "reading GZ's comments over the past two years" then posting "I am new to this town, having just got in from the Columbus area. Almost immediately, once I got past the flowers and signage, I could tell that something stunk in this town." to this little dream: weelllllllll, BIVF - GZ may have been crystal clear to you,but Submitted by ghostwriter on Sat, 2009-06-13 04:11.he is clear as mud to me. And as usual, you prove to be a dildo with your disconnected thoughts and rambling mini-diatribes that are meaningless..

but keep on with the charade, Gary, someone will believe you.

I want to hire Brian the next time I have to do a safety investigation. He'd get to the bottom of it.


he's too busy pulling weeds.


see you've been outed.

We know who you are you troll.


but I have a feeling that those involved with that "safety check" enjoy a mentality larger than a blithering idiot.

I say that because it's common knowledge that RoundUp® gets more done with the least amount of stress.

but I guess that logic eludes some still....

Now, back to addressing legit threads and posts.

So i take it that you've never had a teacher in all your life who was inspiring? You've never in your career been able to "reach" a student? You haven't taught your classroom that life doesn't have to be hopeless? You haven't taught your students that there is more to life than the gangster lifestyle? You haven't taught them that they can BE soemone? If not, then you really aren't a very good teacher.

So whats your excuse for the kids who are failing that have a GOOD home life, who are you going to blame for them?

Teachers are suposed to teach, not just what is in the school books, but common sense and decency as well. A teacher is supposed to teach a child to learn how to think, as well as math, science, etc. Yes, a parent should care and take part, but many don't, or can't, thats why its the teacher's job to make sure a child is educated REGARDLESS of what mom or dad are doing.

Right--if what happens at home isn't influential, then why is Read For Literacy starting the pre-school reading intervention program?

From the Toledo Blade article:
Read For Literacy will embark on a three-year demonstration project, "Creating Young Readers," its first effort to include children. Preschoolers will be paired with individual volunteers, who will read to them much as the adults in their lives would if they could. "We're hoping that intensive exposure to reading will level the playing field for them, that they will essentially be able to compete on a fair basis," Mr. Funk said.

Volunteers will learn dialogic reading - a technique that mirrors how most adults read to children."You engage them in the book," Mr. Funk said.That can be by asking what's on the cover; how many cows or dogs or trees are on a page, and then asking the child to tell the story back.

"If you come from a low-literacy household, that kind of thing isn't a natural thing," Mr. Funk said. "You wouldn't know to do that."

Preschool teachers read to classes every day, and that helps most children.But for those from households where adults read at a fourth-grade level or below - at least 31,000 in Lucas County, according to a recent study - "that group reading will not do you as much good," Mr. Funk said.

is unavailable. Google either "From Sex to Assault What's up with America's Teachers" or

you cannot be serious, the rasta, ignorant etc. mother is me. These are some of the names I have been called not the children's biological families.

Not being disrespectful but do we speak so differently that the point I was trying to make escaped you? :)

I DID miss the point! But give me some credit, I take it that someone here called you rasta, ignorant,etc..I didn't get that in that reading.

Let me try again.

The kids in your home have been successful in school. They have come from horrible backgrounds, right? But yet, they have succeeded in school, some have excelled. What has happened in your home--and that might just be that you have provided a stable home, or you could have worked with them academically above and beyond what was assigned as homework--regardless, YOU are a factor in their success, not just the school they went to or the teachers that they had.

I know this would never happen, but...

I think it would be an interesting experiment to switch the TPS teachers with teachers in a "good" public school system (Sylvania, Perrysburg, Maumee, etc.). The results would probably give some insight as to whether its primarily a problem with the teachers, or how much the role of parents and the school administration played.

(I personally suspect its not "just" the teachers fault, and its not "just" the parents fault. Rather, some combination of the teachers, parents, AND administration.)

regarding this thread.

Parents monitoring classroom instruction? How 'bout a real eye-opener---teachers (and some of us) 'monitoring' the at-home enviornment of their students?

Look, I live in Sylvania and my kids are supposedly the product of the 'great' school system there. The system is fine, it is in fact high-quality, but like everywhere else (including private schools and public ones like Ottawa Hills) there great teachers, average teachers, and some lousy ones all tossed into the mix.

My daughter, older than her brother by four years, is a self-starter who always completes homework assignments, projects, etc. on time, studies hard for exams, and is an honors student across the board.

My son is a great kid but who without fairly-strict parental monitoring regarding completion of homework and test-studying would be a 'C' student (possibly worse) instead of the mostly 'B-B+' student that he is.

Going through the system they had the same teachers about 90% of the way, from kindergarten on up.

At the end of the day, in many if not most cases, it is the parental influence and home enviornment that make or break these kids.

your last sentence pretty well sums up the entire situation.

better watch yo' back!!

Them's fightin words to some folks out here!

What's also never talked about is the HUGE importance of a positive in-home male role model for young men.

as much as I appreciate your "parental influence" and "home environment", the point of the thread was the numbers of students graduating.

And with numbers as are posted at the point of the thread, none of those numbers reflect parental influence. It's about the quality of educator overseeing the education of these children.

McCaskey, have you even read the numbers for your school district compared to TPS?

Graduation Rate for All Students, Class of 2006 - 87.0% District Performance Score: 101.3

yep, must be the parental influence in Sylvania is better than the influence by the parents of TPS kids...

try reading GZ's initial post.

Washington Local: Graduation Rate for All Students,
Class of 2006 77.3% District Performance Score

Oregon: Graduation Rate for All Students, Class of 2006 77.5% District Performance Score: 95.5

Ottawa Hills: Graduation Rate for All Students, Class of 2006 87.8% District Performance Score 98.0

Maumee: Graduation Rate for All Students, Class of 2006 94.0% 113.4

Perrysburg: Graduation Rate for All Students, Class of 2006 95.8% District Performance Score 109.6

Northwood: Graduation Rate for All Students,
Class of 2006 80.2% District Performance Score

Rossford: Graduation Rate for All Students,
Class of 2006 84.6% District Performance Score

Toledo Public: Graduation Rate for All Students,
Class of 2006 34.5% District Performance Score

and last, but not least, the state of Ohio: Graduation Rate for All Students,
Class of 2006 74.3% State Ranking 19th
in nation

speaking volumes about parental influence in TPS...and to think I was a product of TPS myself, doing all this research and homework and stuff....

and Gary? go pull weeds yourself, you worthless dolt...

Thanks for posting the numbers, BrianInVeroFl.

Say Gary? Take a leap off the high level bridge and see if you contribute to the suicide failure rate.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

wanna see something hilarious?

ok Ghostwriter, let's do some math.

Combine the local schools I posted above, find a combined total of all schools except for Toledo Public. Then compare those numbers of the combined school districts with the state average.

Looks crystal clear to me that TPS is dragging NW Ohio's school graduation rate's scores to the bottom of Lake Erie.

That has everything to do with the parents, right Gary?

And please, show your math

but anyone with demographic knowledge of the Toledo area can tell you the answer to your little riddle, Biff.

How many drug dealers are on the corner in resource-saturared Ottawa Hills, Washington, Twp., Oregon, or Perrysburg ?? How many fathers do not, and refuse to work in those districts, do ya think ??? How many parents are up drinking and doing drugs until 4-5 a.m.
in front of their kids ????

Resource saturated means parents with higher education that give a shit about their kids, computers, efficient police force, community involvement, food in the kitchen, etc.

why are we still focused on "parental involvement"?


so what you're saying is that the bad parents are located only in Toledo?

has nothing to do with the abilities of the teachers at all, huh?

only Toledo is suffering from the bad economy? shitty parents? absent parents? bad weather?

let's be for real, George.

in the whole NorthWest Ohio community as posted below, combined, the total is 85.3 % graduation rate. Compare that to Toledo's measley 34%?

so it's a conspiracy that the bad parents dwell within Toledo proper?

so the educators just can't be held accountable?

did you call me Biff? roflmfao nice job...

how many ghettos are there in Ottawa Hills ? Oregon ?
Perrysburg ?

Now ask - how many ghettos are there in Toledo ?

Perhaps you have never been in a ghetto and seen all the accoutrements that can derail a child's academic career.
They number about the same as the amount of resources in a resource-rich community that can enhance a child's academic career.

I grew up in a shithole of a neighborhood that abutted a swamp with overprotective absentee parents and I have to tell you I did pretty damn good, along with my siblings and a majority of my friends.

But I also remember the efforts of all my teachers.

Mrs Wittenburg,, Mrs Hojenecki, Mrs Grodi, Mrs Shaeffer, Mrs Bruin, Mrs SIlverstien, and the 7th and 8th was combined at Riverside and went to Macomber after that.

if the teacher is good, you will want to learn.

I too went to Macomber and I remember a ton of pregnant girls, gang bangers and druggies who had the same great teachers that I had. Why did my wife and I do ok and many of our peers with the same teachers didn't?


All the schools had that. Woodward to Start to those pansy's at Waite. All had gangs, horney girls and pot smokers.

You musta not had Dan Streeter as a teacher, Sensor.

How do you explain the difference between Washington Local and TPS?

They are both within city limits yet there is a discrepancy.

Besides I don't think the attitude of parents is determined by arbitrary lines drawn on a map. There has got to be something within those lines besides parental involvement affecting the students. That I'd argue is the whole system of Toledo, but the teachers are a significant part of that.


I also neglected to mention the private schools within the city.

Majority of their student populations come from within the city. Yet those students don't have such a hard time. What's interesting is those teachers recieve FAR less compensation.

If you're using the immediate environment as a measuring stick let's look at Central Catholic alone. That is the heart of Toledo and it's problems. How much better did their students do?


My kids go to private school...12 to 1 - student to teacher ratio. My oldest kid is the "poor kid" in the class room. 24 kids, 2 teachers (+ 1 aid)... There 5 of the kids have have at least one doctor as a parent, 1 fortune 500 CFO, 2 fortune 500 controllers and a director or two of various types...

So basically it just like any Central city school...

only twelve schools in that district?

Washington Local, to me, was merely 5 schools strong, until I looked up those numbers.

Good one. Naturally, you won't get a reply that's anything but troll bait and jejune insults.

What I would actually like to see is a random selection of problem or failing students, say about 30 of them, placed into Ottawa Hills, MVCDS and St. John's. Give the little darlings an placement exam before and after, just to see what a school year away from TPS might do for them.

But then, what if they improved?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

So how many of these schools are non union?

Also why don't you look at say "single parent homes" and run those numbers as well. I wonder which districts have more stay at home moms and which districts have a bunch of latch key kids coming home to empty house of working parents?

I wonder which districts have parents that have to work weekends and which districts have parents who don't and can spend their weekends learning at the library, zoo, park or art museum?

Graduation rates are tied to drop-out rates.

A kid cannot graduate if he is not there. He cannot "legally" drop out without a parent signature, until he is 18.


It isn't about your kids, McCaskey. It's about the 60% in TPS that didn't graduate. Put a different way, you are citing two instances of a positive experience with public schools where you control the environment at home, and the school system (Sylvania) is not a part of TPS. I'm referring to the hundreds that do not go to Sylvania and whose home environment you do not control.

While I'm at it, my congratulations to you and Mrs. McCaskey for raising two successful children. Was it easy?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Fire the teachers in Toledo. They suck and like most of Toledo's politicians only have their job because of the union.

The only time I want to see a 60% failure rate is on suicide attempts off the Highlevel bridge.


across the state ---Cleveland, Columbus, Akron, Dayton, Cincinnati--and compare those graduation rates with the corresponding suburban areas surrounding those cities and the only logical conclusion is that all the really bad teachers must be located in the urban areas.

Is that seriously what you guys believe?


No, that's not what I believe. What I believe is that the people who are financially supporting the Toledo Public Schools are spending around $11,000 per student and over half of those students do not graduate. That means over half of the students can't even maintain a D average. Toledo Public School teachers and administration, along with their supporters are telling me that this is not the fault of the school; it's the parents who are at fault, and since we can't change the parents nothing can be done. The TPS system will continue to spend $11,000 or more per student, and over half will continue to fail.

I don't accept that. I think something can be done, and what is more I believe that it can be done by the teachers. I also believe that the teachers and the administrators and the BOE do not want to improve this situation because it would mean:

1 - That this situation is their fault
2 - They all would have to learn new skills
3 - They would all have to work harder

School teachers have a pretty easy time of it. They aren't responsible to anyone for results. They have job security that is unheard of anywhere else. Their benefits are so good that the private sector has stopped dreaming about having anything even close to teacher's benefits. And vacation? Tell me about it.

Now the teachers are in a nasty position. They've got to contend with failure and at this point they absolutely do not dare to admit any responsibility at all. Can you imagine the perfect storm of lawsuits if even a handful of school teachers were to admit that they, and the school system, screwed up?

As for your point about the home environment, sure, the home environment makes a difference. Absolutely. But the student's life at home is not the only life they have.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

this was contributed brilliantly.

and pretty much summed up the crux of the thread.

well done!

Thanks for the compliment, BrianInVeroFl. I appreciate it.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

School teachers have a pretty easy time of it. They aren't responsible to anyone for results.

No Child Left Behind is/was an attempt to not only make school teachers responsible for the achievement of their students, but to make states and city school districts responsible for educating and for hiring the highest quality teachers.

Unfortunately, the state boards of regents which control education funding, and the teacher's unions and teacher associations have protested and even sued the federal government over the Act. There are also few protections in the law to keep teachers from cheating on their results by teaching the tests (there is documented evidence of teachers cheating on standardized tests even before NCLB--It's treated in a chapter of Freakonomics, if you'd like to read more.

The way we measure learning needs an overhaul, and the way we teach needs to be reformed. Here's my take : Colleges of Education should be much, much, much more selective in admission--somewhere on the same level as law schools and med schools. Only the brightest, most motivated students should be permitted to go to into education.

Teachers would demand high pay--and be rewarded according to their skills and scholarship. They would not need unions to represent them, because they would be rewarded financially on par with their TRUE importance to society. In other words, teachers should be paid more because of the important role they serve in society, but their should be limits on who can teach.

This would solve a lot of problems, and could even cancel out some of the damage done by lack of intervention at home, environment, and parental literacy level.

what gives when I'm reading about over 60% of TPS students not graduating on here from one souce and from this source:

it's something completely different?

but the math they used to garner those scores I listed is listed at the bottom of the page.

and the exact same equasion was used for all the school districts across America.

but I'm looking at one set of stats that ends with school year of 2006 and another that ends with the school year 2008 and trying to rectify the vast difference between the two.

Hey, maybe it's just me, but I tend to go with data that would reflect the most recent time-period available, unless someone on here explains to me why the kidsohio numbers/methodology would be complete bunk and not believeable.

From it's website: was created in 2002 in response to community, education and business leaders who wanted an effective, data-driven, nonpartisan organization focused on improving public education in Ohio. The organization is nonpartisan, funded by the private sector and does not accept any government monies or contracts.

The President and CEO, according to his bio, has worked with governors and mayors from both political parties.

{shrugs} they sound o.k. to me...

KidsOhio is using value-added data in their reports. Basically, liars figure and figures lie.

Now, I understand enough about statistical methods to know that I should not be called upon to compile and analyze quantitative data (qualitative is much different), but I can tell you that for one reason or another, this group is being paid to make the entire school system look better than it actually is.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

you're gonna have to do better than this.

You're accusing this group of 'being paid to make the system better'. Very strong stuff and that should come with harder reasoning than questioning their 'value-added' data.

Whatever the actual numbers may be, there's a hundred-mile difference between the figures from a class of '06 report from one source and one from '08 from a differing source, and I'm calling bullshit on the premise of the entire thread, that 66% of TPS students don't graduate or walk out the door for the final time without some sort of diploma, certificate, piece of toilet paper, whatever that shows they completed the basic required high school criteria.

We can all question the true value of that sheepskin, whether or not the work they completed actually enables them to enter the 'adult world' with the required skills to move his or her life forward in a positive direction, but that's a different argument for a different day.

From McCaskey: You're accusing this group of 'being paid to make the system better'.

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that someone is being paid to make the system look better than it actually is.

By all means, if the statistics cited at the beginning of the thread are not accurate or have been interpreted inaccurately, post a correction along with some reasoning as to why the statistics are flawed. Truthfully, 60% sounds high to me as well, but TPS does not have an outstanding track record.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

I inadvertently dropped the work 'look.'

Do you have some inside knowledge of KidsOhio that would make you form that opinion? It's still a pretty damning statement.

Only what I read. KidsOhio claims to be a nonpartisan organization funded by individuals and certain nonpartisan corporations. The site includes contributions from Abercrombie & Fitch, Bill and Melinda Gates, and a bunch of people and law firms I've never heard of. They claim to have altruistic motives and work to support education. Okay, so what? Here's what.

Strike One: The group does not perform their own data collection. They use the same data collected by the State of Ohio.
Strike Two: KidsOhio manipulates the data, converting the original data to 'value-added' results. Just what the value-added formula is, they won't say, nor will they offer any explanation of why their results are better than the State results.
Ball One: I find it hard to believe the disparity between studies. I suspect that the real truth lies somewhere in the middle, but that the real truth is not likely to be published. I would rather believe the worst case scenario and overreact rather than presume that there is only a little water leaking from the [you know what] caused by spring rains, when the reality may be a catastrophe and subsequent cancellation of my flood insurance.

I'm waiting for strike three. I don't trust altruistic groups. I don't trust any groups who claims to be making great strides in any politically sensitive item but has yet to actually accomplish anything. KidsOhio's achievements are very nebulous.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Our teachers should be paid a flat rate that increases only with years in. From there their pay should fluctuate and they should get bonuses based upon how many of their students pass the proficiency.

At least then ineffective teachers wouldn't be a drag on so much of the system.

Likewise TPS would have added money for supplies, computers, etc. since judging by the graduation rate not many of the teachers would rate a bonus.


Ottawa Hills--Sylvania---Perrysburg---Maumee---AW---etc, etc. would get the bonuses and the upward pay fluctutations.

And please, don't tell me about Whitmer being 'in the city limits' and having better grad rates---the Whitmer area doesn't compare with Libbey, Woodward, Waite, Scott, certain parts of Bowsher and Start in terms of crime rates, single-parent households, drug/alcohol abuse issues in the home...all the factors that are the real meat and potatoes of grad rates and proficiency scores.

"Ottawa Hills--Sylvania---Perrysburg---Maumee---AW---etc, etc. would get the bonuses and the upward pay fluctutations."

Who do you think pays the teachers? The state?

The teacher's contracts are negiotiated and paid by the TPS. Why would bonus money from TPS go to Ottawa Hills or any other school outside of the district?

If it were state bonuses I'd agree but I'm talking about the TPS taxpayers money.

LOL I've lived in areas of Bowsher, Rogers, Start and Whitmer in the last 10 - 12 years. The Start area was by far the one with less problems. The worst area was in a Bowsher almost Libbey area. Ironically near the same park where the out-of-control teens confronted the mayor in another thread.


"Ottawa Hills--Sylvania---Perrysburg---Maumee---AW---etc, etc. would get the bonuses and the upward pay fluctutations."

Who do you think pays the teachers? The state?

The teacher's contracts are negiotiated and paid by the TPS. Why would bonus money from TPS go to Ottawa Hills or any other school outside of the district?

If it were state bonuses I'd agree but I'm talking about the TPS taxpayers money.

LOL I've lived in areas of Bowsher, Rogers, Start and Whitmer in the last 10 - 12 years. The Start area was by far the one with less problems. The worst area was in a Bowsher almost Libbey area. Ironically near the same park where the out-of-control teens confronted the mayor in another thread.


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