Student at Christian school in Findlay to share prom suspension story nationally

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090511/NEWS16/905119942

Man, there are some good arguements on BOTH sides of this issue -

I for one dont think it's ANYBODY's business what a kid does off campus (so long as it's legal of course) other than the kid and his parents.

On the other side of the coin tho - they DID sign a contract - the kid AND his parents signed it. In fact, this is the FIFTH TIME they signed it (at the beginning of each year, every year thru his senior year...)

That being the case, I have to pretty much go along with the school on this one...

This is nothing new or unusual - when I played football in highschool, at that time, it was legal to purchase and drink what they called "low", or "3.2" beer. We were asked to sign an agreement with the coach that during the season of the sport we were playing, that we'd abstain from drinking at all. And if we were caught (again, doing something that was LEGAL), we were subject to getting kicked off the team.

In my mind, I wouldnt have agreed to the contract that this kid and his parents signed, but they signed it. Now that it's become inconvenient, it's too damn bad!

You need to remember what it will be teaching the kid about ethics and responsibility if they just waive things...

No votes yet

One aspect of this that has been raised in discussion I've had with people on this topic is that the principal did give him permission to attend. He merely told him there would be "consequences" if he attended. Had the principal not given written permission for him to attend I think it would be a different scenario.

If the school really believed their own rules, they should have not granted written permission for him to attend the prom...Then had the young man attended without school consent? He should have been punished.

We don't remember days only moments...

Does a private institution have a right to run itself in the way it sees fit?

It's not like he was told he could go and then the principal popped out from behind a corner and said, "Surprise! I tricked you! You're gonna get suspended and that's the only reason I signed the permission slip."

Are Christians allowed to run their institutions in the way they see fit whether or not the prevailing culture disagrees?

The American Baptist Taliban, huh, whooda thunkit.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

Taliban?

really?

Are baptists throwing acid on little school girls?

Blowing up schools?

Beheading those they deem apostate from Islam or any infidel they get their hands on?

Sheltering and allied to Al Qeada?

Stoning and shooting adulterers?

Pushing Sharia law?

Is your comparison stupid as hell?

Yes it is...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

just give 'em time, Z.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Yes, because baptists in particular have a rich history of persecuting others.

You know, Baptists were the one's jailing other religious leaders and speakers because they weren't Baptists.

john the Baptist (the 1st baptist) served the heads of his enemies on plates to............

OH WAIT!!! I got this all backwards.

Baptists were the one's who were jailed in Maryland, and John the Baptist's head was served to a girl on request from his enemy after he was jailed.

My bad. I was confused for a second.

Give em time?...

That's a pretty polluted line of thought....

I think you've seen the handmaids tale one too many times....

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

"Give em time?..."

Yep. Preemptive religious persecution. People must not have a right to believe in their religion anymore.

MikeyA

Good one, Jeep!
Does the wording of the school contract speak to activities out side school hours? Seems to me, if it does not, then the school needs to back off. Or, IF the contract states clearling that no outside proms or anything that has dancing & music will be forbidden & suspensions given to those who break the contract - and the parents & kid signed it knowing what the precise wording was to that affect, then the school "wins' I guess.
Seems pretty aracaic to me - not much better than requiring women to wear shrouds, or being sent to jail because of writing something 'controversial' or contrary to the Religion . Some may say that's a stretch, but it's all following man made rules about what they think their God wants.

Do Christians have the right to be what you subjectively deem as "arcaic?"

Nobody held the kid hostage and forced him to go to Heritage. No gun was pointed at him while he signed a statement... 5 TIMES. He is even going to be allowed to make up finals. he just can't walk.

This sounds nothing like a woman being gang raped and being found guilty and punished under Sharia law.

Does the wording of the school contract speak to activities out side school hours?

Yes it does - are you good with it now??

Seems pretty hypocritical of you to have a problem with people who want to behave the way they want, considering it's a PRIVATE school, paid for with PRIVATE funds!

Dont you take the complete opposite frame of mind if a PRIVATE establishment wants to allow smoking?

Or do freedoms only apply to the subjects you approve of?

While Tyler’s stepfather Stephan Johnson doesn’t dispute that, he said the school’s rules shouldn’t apply outside of school. He also noted that the letter informing the family of Tyler’s suspension doesn’t state a specific rule that his stepson violated by attending the prom.

"We’re not arguing religion, any of that. Not at all. We’re arguing that it wasn’t in the rule book," he said.


There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

There's usually a catch-all cluase or phrase. So it might not specifically mention prom, but it might say actions unbecoming of a Christian or something like that.

Of course this is just speculation, and private institutions can still do whatever they want.

LOL

'So it might not specifically mention prom, but it might say actions unbecoming of a Christian or something like that. '

Well, that's mighty ummm......vague, isn't it?

If a kid's parent wants to play The Beatles' 'Here Comes The Sun' (heathen rock music!!!) on their soundsystem at home and the kid sits in a chair and listens to it he's breaking the school rules?

No, I would think defenders of the school would want the 'code of conduct' to be very specific as to what a student may or may not do and the wording had better be equally specific on what said student can and can't do when he/she is not on school property.

lol

So when you start up your Christian school that is funded privately, remember that. Also, remember that was SPECULATION.

Jeep you fell into the trap of what this case insn't about, but will be made into by the media and left. Anti-religion, anti-conservative, anti-personal responsibility falicy.

For the public, this is not about how strict his church or school or beliefs are. It is, as Billy said, about agreeing to one thing, and doing another.

Its not about the school "granting permission" and then punishing the student. The kid was required to have his principle sign the form, and the principle rightfully told him, I will sign the form, but if you CHOOSE to voilate our behavior contract, YOUR CHOICE will have consequences, including suspention.

He will graduate, he will go on to college (or where ever he was going before this week), he just can't wear a cap and gown with his 3 other classmates. That was HIS and HIS PARENTS' choice.

Want to make a stand for personal choice - GREAT. But at the same time make a stand for PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

This is not about Footloose, or civil rights, or his un-dying love for his girlfriend who would have been damaged if he could not attend her prom. Its about, making a deal, sticking to the deal, professing and living your beliefs, and living with the consequences of your actions.

The media and liberals will make this about the bad, christian right-wing which oppresses poor little high school seniors. Blasephemy!!!

TAHL

What about coercion? The teenager is under the control of his parents who demand he sign the contract, as well as authority figures at school who intimidate or pressure him to sign.

Also, the teenager is under age. Doesn't that have some bearing on the situation?

Now, on the other hand, most schools are ruled by fiat as decreed by the school principal. The principal can arbitrarily decide that this particular student be banned from commencement exercises and announce his decision at the last minute. The student and his family would not have time to get a judge to intervene before the final mile is walked and closed for the year. That is, barring a military coup by the vice principal or some such event. What then?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Damn Zeitgeist, do you take everything so literally?

I hope no one ever tells you, "break a leg".

Like some others have said, I'd like to see just whats in this "contract". Hard to believe they think they have the right to say what can be done and not done away from school.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

When people call my fellow Americans "taliban"...yes I do...If he didnt mean it...why say it...

No comparison to a good luck stage phrase...

See the thing is...jack aint kiddin...

I got some funndies in the family...they are the most gentle people you would ever meet...

As far as a school being able to control what is done outside of school.....public schools do it all the time...

Kids get booted from sports teams all the time for behaviour done outside of school.

And they didnt even sign a contract...

Why do you think college anarchists hide their faces....cuz they can get booted from school if they are caught rioting...

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Kids get booted from sports teams all the time for behaviour done outside of school.

They get booted for illegal behaviors.

Dancing isn't.

Thats like comparing apples and oranges.

Like I said, back when it was legal to drink at age 18, we'd get kicked off the team for doing it - and it was all legal. Same goes today in many places if a coach catches kids on the team smoking...

And many times, THAT;s in publicly funded schools

BEGONE EVIL LOGIC...I SMITE THEE WITH FEELINGS AND EMPATHY!

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

But were you also suspended from school as well?

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

that any student under the age of 18 caught smoking has committed 2 offensives:

  • Illegally acquiring cigarettes
  • Illegally smoking them if caught in a No Smoking area as described under the smoking ban
  • If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth. ~Japanese Proverb

    Hrm....

    apples and oranges....

    no comparison...

    yet both are spherical...

    Both are called fruit....

    Both have seeds...

    Both grow on trees...

    Both make great juice...

    Both contain acids....

    Both contain sugars...

    Both rot in the sun....

    Both are good for your health....

    Both will stop scurvy...

    Both have skins....

    Both can be peeled....

    Both are sold by the pound....

    Damn...no comparison what-so-ever....

    Maybe next time pick an orange and glass of milk.......

    “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

    http://www.thecourier.com/index.asp

    Now the kid's really geting burned at the stake....kissing his girlfriend, of all things! There goes the graduation diploma!

    Actually, from a PR standpoint relating to his case, not the most sensible thing young Mr. Frost could have done in front of media cameras. On the other hand, at least he's acting like a real high school senior.

    Is this really a shock to the kid?

    He was advised of what would happen if he were caught kissing or went to the dance. The kid defied. If that's what the kid really wants to do I can respect that however arguing that the suspension is unfair loses that respect.

    The young man needs to be a man. If he doesn't agree with the school's policies he should say that he and the school don't see eye to eye and leave. However signing a paper saying he agrees with the school and then defying it's actions while accusing their punishment of being unfair is definitely not being a man.

    It's like I tell my Marines everyday. You can disagree with your leaders. Sometimes you may go against their orders. But when you don't take your punishment like a man is when you've shown yourself to not be a man of high character.

    MikeyA

    'He told the Courier that although it was "loud," he certainly did not hear any music he hasn't heard before'

    I'm guessing that sentence would apply to most of the other Heritage students as well.

    The school can preach, the school can advise, the school can push an agenda, but the school cannot control, both what happens from a practical standpoint and I'm betting a legal one, what happens outside of school boundaries as it relates to their students, unless the students' actions are of an unlawful nature.

    "I'm guessing that sentence would apply to most of the other Heritage students as well."

    Huge stretch. Huge assumption.

    Care to explain where in the Constitution or anywhere else where it says private institutions can't make rules?

    Any tort law backing this up?

    Any new Constitutional theory that forbids schools to make rules you don't like?

    Any standing anywhere?

    you show me somewhere what precisely the 'rules' say as pertains to Heritage students outside of school property and I'll give my very non-lawyer opinion on whether i think it's valid.

    Does the 'code' say, specifically, students cannot engage in dancing, listening to rock music or hand-holding anywhere they physically are, or on the grounds of Heritage?

    What exactly is the wording in the handbook? If you know, post away. I couldn't find it anywhere.

    Whatever it says, it had better be more specific than maintaining 'Christian values' or some such non-sensical phrase that can in interpreted by different parties different ways depending on which way the wind is blowing that day.

    Beyond legalisms, again, there is no practical way to enforce, outside of the school grounds, what students may or may not do.

    Do you honestly think, again from a practical standpoint, Tyler Frost is in the minority of students at Heritage that has 'heard that kind of music before'?

    If so, you're living in a bubble.

    But be that as it may, the exact wording in the code tells the tale of right/wrong here.

    And, if the code does cover every situation applicable outside of school grounds, does that code trump whatever influence the student's parents may have on what their child listens to or physically can do in their own home or any other typical situation where the parent is in control? Or have parents signed away all control over their own child's life?

    If that's the case, Heritage, and any other 'school' like it, is not an institution of learning, but something else altogether...a four-letter word that begins with 'c' comes quickly to mind.

    Since you didn't answer my first questions, let me copy and paste::

    Care to explain where in the Constitution or anywhere else where it says private institutions can't make rules?

    Any tort law backing this up?

    Any new Constitutional theory that forbids schools to make rules you don't like?

    Any standing anywhere?

    And I will reiterate, private schools can make all the rules they want. That's why they are private. They are also non-coercive institutions. They aren't forcing anyone to do anything.

    They are rather exclusive.

    So can you find out where in the Constitution it is not legal for private institutions to make rules? Maybe dig up some case law?

    Thanks.

    in the meantime, here's a copy of a handbook from a Heritage Christian School, not sure it's the one located in Finday.

    http://www.heritagechristianonline.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=jJTkMNV...

    let's see here, under movies, music and art:

    MUSIC, MOVIES, AND ART
    Heritage Christian School cannot regulate the kind of
    music you listen to or the movies you watch away from
    school.
    However, during school or any school functions
    (including field trips)
    rap and/or rock music is not to be
    listened to or discussed. Movies with a rating of PG-13 or
    worse may not be discussed. The content of such music
    and movies very rarely, if ever reinforces the kind of
    character we are seeking to develop in our students.

    Now we move on to 'dating':

    DATING (Middle School Policy)
    We understand that a growing interest between boys and
    girls is a natural part of adolescence. We also understand
    that we cannot dictate what our students do on their own
    time away from school
    . However, our policy during
    school hours and at school-sponsored activities
    is as
    follows: There will be no boy-friend/girl-friend
    relationships at school. Discussions, notes or any other
    type of communication on that subject is not allowed at
    school.'

    Thomas, if this is not Heritage Findlay, perhaps you should get in touch with this school and inform them because they happen to be private they can do anything or make any rule they so desire.

    They seem in need of a good lawyer.

    I think parental coerison played a huge part in this kid attending this school & contract signing. I'm sure the kid was all for it when he started this school, becauseit was probably drilled into his head since he was a tiny boy, that 'this is good, and 'that' is not good". Most people learn at the knee of their parents. But most people also have changes in their viewpoints as they get older - and perhaps that's the case here. This is not about religious freedoms or religion bashing - it's a contract, a deal this kid & his parents made with the school. If he came to his own conclusion that it is not going against his God to attend a simple high school dance, then good for him - he's learning to have a mind of his own & form his own ideas - and feels solid enough in himself to do it - even at the risk of pissing off the school and / or his parents. I'm not religious - but I'm fairly sure that if ther is this loving God in Heaven, that God would not feel this kid committed a horrible sin. The school decided this was a sin - not God. And if this kid suffers consequences of breaking a contract - then so be it - it's a choise he made. And I think that it's good he's learning to make his own choises.

    is good so individuals can see for themselves the inaneness of any rules meant to control actions outside the classroom.

    Clearly, the Heritage Christian School's (whichever one it is) handbook posted above 'gets it.'..it's futile, either legally or from a commonsense perspective, to attempt to regulate lawful behaviour and dictate actions outside of the school's commonly-accepted boundary of influence...meaning it's property.

    Wouldn't anyone who "shines a light on these fundamentalist schools" who reaches conclusions against them and holding them with conviction and rigidity also be a fundamentalist?

    If so, then how does merely exchanging one form of fundamentalism able to refute another form of fundamentalism?

    I wish i had a dollar for everytime someone either asked me for legal advice or assumed I knew everything about the law or called me the expert. I would have no need for a career. You said you visited my site, so you know I'm not in law school yet, as signified by the post "Accepted."

    I have a history degree which is practically useless right now.

    So what's the point of suing? Not for money or attention right? On what grounds? he knew what would happen and cant accept the consequences.

    BTW those rules were for a school that stopped at 8th grade. Notice the rules were specifically for middle school. Frost is a senior. Heritage has had a high school for a while now and this pdf was revised March 2008.

    Nice try though. Good luck.

    rules for 8th graders would be even more stringent than for high-schoolers, but the point is here was a private school that knew it wasn't even going to attempt to regulate outside-school behavior and it looks like from the wording in the handbook they realize they couldn't even if they wanted to.

    If comments on the Courier website concerning decreasing enrollment at the Heritage Christian in Findlay from 20-some years ago because of it's ever-stringent policies are accurate maybe this place will be out of business soon anyway.

    LOL, good luck? I'm not sueing, and if their handbook is specific as to behavior away from school property I'd agree nobody's winning a lawsuit, although again it'd be nice to see what exactly that code of conduct says.

    I find it funny neither side is releasing a copy of the wording pertaining to this matter.

    The problem withthis entire debate is that it is not based on hard fact.

    I wentto a Christian school that was similar, but no the same. We are Independent Fundamentalists for a reason. Independent of each other.

    I've made speculation and have labeled it as such. Assumptions and extrapolations from my specualtion or anybody's speculation provides for faulty and errant debate.

    We don't have enough specifics to argue this realistically.

    If Heritage was in business to make money, I'm sure they would have bent to the cultural pressures decades ago. The purpose of Christian education and I ASSUME Heritage Chrsitian is not to solely make a buck.

    from wiki -
    Fundamentalism refers to a belief in, and strict adherence to a set of basic principles (often religious in nature), sometimes as a reaction to perceived doctrinal compromises with modern social and political life.

    The term fundamentalism was originally coined to describe a narrowly defined set of beliefs that developed into a movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century, and that had its roots in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy of that time.
    The term fundamentalist has since been generalized to mean strong adherence to any set of beliefs in the face of criticism or unpopularity, but has by and large retained religious connotations.

    Fundamentalism is often used as a pejorative term, particularly when combined with other epithets (as in the phrase "Muslim fundamentalists" and "right-wing/left wing fundamentalists"). Richard Dawkins has used the term to characterize religious advocates as clinging to a stubborn, entrenched position that defies reasoned argument or contradictory evidence.[9] Others in turn, such as Christian theologian Alister McGrath, have used the term fundamentalism to characterize atheism as dogmatic
    ****************************************
    jayott - I think the word "fundamentalist" implies an extreme belief system, that the majority do not share in it's extremism. Whether it's religion based, or what ever based. In this case, the majority of people (regardless of their religion, or how strong their faith is - even when their faith is just as strong as those of this school & church) do not hold the belief that a high school prom,with dancing & music, is so sinful, it should be considered a forbidden act. Even if you take away the prom aspect , this group still believes that any non Christian music and / or dancing, is sinful & goes against the church. Just the fact that the group that holds these beliefs is in a small minority, and that they are so stringent in their beliefs - buys them the label 'fundamentalist'. Although, I'm pretty sure that along with all of that, there usually is an extreme viewpoint in their religious beliefs - that run contrary to what the majority of people & religions believe - even though wiki suggested it did not have to be religion based.

    When I think of 'fundamentalists', I tend to assume they hold strict ideas that are non negotiable about certain things - music, dancing, drinking, creationism to the extent that they deny that science has proven fossils & dinosaur bones to be millions of years old (because they believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, and it doesn't 'jive' with their beliefs to say otherwise), strict beliefs in abortion rights, and a belief that people choose to be gay (rather than born or made by God that way) & can change if they put their mind to it & if they do not, then they are sinning & are doomed to hell.

    Joe the plumber showed his true ignorance & homophobia when he said that people knew where he 'stood' on this - that he did know homosexuals, but would never allow them to be around his kids. THAT bit of stupidity that came out of his mouth - my gosh. That statement implied that if you are gay, then you are also a chlld molester - and that is just ignorance. The same logic could be used by saying that you can't have a teen boy babysit your daughter because he will certainly not be able to control himself & will become a child molester - or vice versa, there have been many female child molesters.

    THAT mindset, to me, is a form of fundamentalism. Rigid, even if it flies in the face of logic or science.
    I got into a discussion with a good friend years back - a friend who's religion was as rigid as this kid's school. I found a scripture in the Bible (wouldn't be able to find it again unless I worked at it though, but I could if I had to) that quoted God as saying 'dance & be merry' or something. Found a similar scripture about drinking wine. My point, is just that you can find a scripture in the Bible to interpret most anything - and put any kind of twist on it you want.

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