Findlay teen told prom is against school values : suspension looming

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http://www.thecourier.com/Issues/2009/May/08/ar_news_050809_story3.asp?d...
I thought the legalism was fading from our society. The school needs to now trust what they have put into this kid and see how he decides.

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Who cares????

I graduated high school from a Christian school and went to a Christian college for 2 yrs. One constant about Christian education is the rules. Everybody knows that going in.

I hope Heritage Findlay sticks to their ground.

http://thetommorrissey.com

If you don't like the rules, don't send your children to that school. Once you send your child there, he or she is bound by the rules.

Why do so many parents want to undermine the school authorities? After the child graduates, he or she can attend all of the dances he or she wants to attend...that is unless the parent decides to send the child to a college with the same rules!!

I don't understand why what this kid does outside of school is any business of the school that he attends.
The school doesn't have a right to make rules this kid has to follow at home.
If the school doesn't wish to have a prom because of its beliefs more power to them but that doesn't give them a right to punish someone for what they do outside of school.
Going to a prom isn't an illegal activity.

I agree with you OhioKat. This school is trying to give this student a black mark for doing something that's legal. Us Christians claim we are not radicals like some other religions. I beg to differ. Christ surrounded himself with people with all kinds of negative issues, and, according to the Bible God commissioned drunks, murders, adulters, whores, non-believers, etc. to do his bidding. It amazes me that some religious institutions think they are of a higher power than God. Here is another example of following the rules and you get punished. The kid did get the school to sign-off. He could have gone to the prom without their sign-off and by the time the school got it all sorted- out, graduation would be over.

Christian education is not just an education. If you went to a Christian school just to learn what is taught in public schools, you wasted your money. Christian education is about the Christian lifestyle. I would agree with you that Christianity is "radical" and should be. We are not radicals in the sense that we are violent, but Christians are certainly are not supposed to conform. - Book of Romans.

The kid signed a statement that said he understood the rules. At this Christian school and every other Christian school, there are rules that apply to outside the classroom. The student knew this. The issue isn't whether or not the school has the rules. The issue is should the school enforce their rules or give into the "peer pressure."

The kid signed the statement to obey the school rules - IN the school, not OUT OF THE SCHOOL in his own private time. What he does in his private life outside of school should be between the kid & his parents.

do the 'school rules' spell out as to may or may not be done OUTSIDE of the school enviornment?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090508/ap_on_re_us/us_school_dance_flap

'If Frost is involved with alcohol or sex at the prom, he will be expelled, England said.'

And the school would know of this how, exactly? Is he being tailed?

The handbook for the 84-student Christian school says rock music "is part of the counterculture which seeks to implant seeds of rebellion in young people's hearts and minds."

You have to got be kidding me. What is this, 1952? Has this school ever head of 'Christian rock'?
You know, there can be music that lyrically can be very conservative and very 'Christian'-like and at the same time have a beat or, God-forbid, a rhythem.

Fifty-some years after Elvis' hip gyrations to Blue Suede Shoes there's still talk of 'rock music' poisoning young minds?

This 'Christian' school doesn't deserve this kid.

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Reminds me of the old movie "Footloose". I have an old friend who got religion, and sent her kids to a school simlar to this - forbidden to dance, listen to anything except Christian music, etc. I think her church also forbade women wearing pants. (I have another good friend who's oldest sister belongs to some church that forbids women to cut their hair???) Anyway, this friend of mine told me the same reasoning about the music - said it was Satan speaking to the kids. Good grief. I should have asked her what that meant in regards to the old jazz, blues, and gospel music - and, while I"m not religious, I do think that black churches are by far the most enthusiastic & genuine in their passion for the church. (whereas, my thinking about the theatrical type churches like Cornerstone, et al - are just huge money makers for the preachers. There's just something not right to me when churches have a snack bar & sell balloons & have stage shows. Why the need to drress up God if you really believe?

Everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe.

If the school wants to believe that rock music is the work of Satan however much I disagree they have a right to believe it.

The student does have a choice. He has the right to not go to Heritage.

I went to a school that regulated my conduct outside of school hours. I now have a job that regulates my conduct outside of working hours.

I made a choice to go to that school and I made a choice on my career path. At any time I can change my mind and leave. This kid can too.

MikeyA

as it applies to situations not on school grounds.

Was hoping to find it on the school's website:

http://www.heritagefindlay.org/index.cfm?i=6416

Could not, but did find this:

'When the school committee, many years before I became the principal, set up the policy regarding dancing, I am confident that they had the principle of fleeing lustful situations in mind. The question as I see it is, should a Christian place themselves at an event where young ladies will have low cut dresses and be dancing in them? Isn’t it contrary to the example of Joseph and the verses that I stated?'

I'm hoping the school's 'code of conduct 'covers such situations as what students may watch at home on television, what websites they may visit while online in their own home, what movies they may allowed to go to, which malls, beaches, swimming pools, athletic events, theatrical events, restuarants, carnivals, etc, etc. they may frequent.

One never knows where a 'lustful' situation' may rear it's ugly head.

Why stop with dancing?

FYi, I went to a Christian school that was very strict on who we competed with in sports. Heritage met our standards, and if they are anything similar to my school - most likely they are - they don't allow students to go to theaters, frown on public beaches, public swimming pools, mixed swimming, etc... These people practice what they preach. They are ahead of your logic on this one, because your logic does make sense.

I had to sign a statement every year that said I would not go to theaters and the rest of it every single year. If i didn't like the rules, nobody was forcing me to spend my tuition money there.

Just so you know.

I just want to totally understand this...your private Christian school forbade you, for example, to go to the movies with your parents, friends or anyone else? Was there a cutoff on ratings? PG-13? PG? Didn't matter? Just no movies...period?

If your parents took you on vacation to, say, the Outer Banks or to the Cedar Point waterpark or anywhere where there was a 'public beach or swimming pool' you were forbidden by the rules of your school to go in the water? How about even looking at a girl in a bathing suit?

I'm not jerking you around or making fun of you...I simply find this unbelieveable; I can barely believe it's even lawful or enforceable under any policy, private school or otherwise.

A larger question--Is this what it means to be a real, committed Christian? Do you honestly believe you're a better human being, a better Christian, for having to obey these types of restrictions outside of school property?

Because honestly, and again i don't mean disrespect as much as I just find this so incredible--this sounds more like the Taliban than anything I personally associate with Christianity.

From Wiki's article about the Taliban:

'Sharia law was interpreted to ban a wide variety of activities hitherto lawful in Afghanistan: employment, education and sports for women, movies, television, videos, music, dancing, hanging pictures in homes, clapping during sports events, kite flying, and beard trimming. One Taliban list of prohibitions included:
pork, pig, pig oil, anything made from human hair, satellite dishes, cinematography, and equipment that produces the joy of music, pool tables, chess, masks, alcohol, tapes, computers, VCRs, television, anything that propagates sex and is full of music, wine, lobster, nail polish, firecrackers, statues, sewing catalogs, pictures, Christmas cards.[53]

The difference between the kind of Christianity Heritage preaches and Shria law is Heritage isn't FORCING their religious beliefs upon anyone.

This young man's family made a CHOICE to send him there. They then don't get a CHOICE to follow the only rules the school has they agree with.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't want religion in public schools but likewise I don't want the public in religious schools.

MikeyA

but again, I'd really like to see specifically what the schools' 'code of conduct' actually says about what's allowable outside of school grounds, because this is all about the wording of that 'contract' and the interpretation of it.

This young man's family made a CHOICE to send him there.

 

What about HIS choice?
A high school prom is not the door way to hell, if there even is one.

I guess I will just never be able to grasp the ideas of fundamentalists, of any religion.
 

He wants to go to prom. Last time I checked that wasn't a sign of the apocolypse.

 

 

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi

If that's what they believe they have the right to believe it.

Just as you have the right to believe what you wish. You have your beliefs and we all could be equally as off in them.

As off as I believe the school is in their beliefs they are not pressing their beliefs on those who do not condone them. By sending their child to this school the parents accepted the teachings of the school. To suddenly say they don't agree when it's not convenient is hipocritical.

Unlike McCaskey I don't feel the published code of conduct is as important... AS LONG AS... the school has a documented history of this type of decisions without prejudice to this one young man.

Again I have no problem with other religions teaching other radical teachings as long as they do not try to force or coerce their beliefs on others who do not accept them.

MikeyA

I'm one of those Christians that you aren't likely to hear much about. I believe in the freedom of choice. You won't catch me going door to door trying to round up recruits nor am I likely to be seen at a mega-church, buying my coffee and snacks before the show starts.

These people are trying to legislate morality, which won't work. They believe that if they make enough rules, people will stop committing those sins, or if they do they'll be punished and not commit the same sin again. Again, this method doesn't work, but the failure only serves to inspire the authorities to create more rules against various behaviors, and couple the rules with less tolerance and stricter punishments. The methodology doesn't work now, didn't work in the past and won't work in the future.

From McCaskey: A larger question--Is this what it means to be a real, committed Christian?

In short? No, it does not.

From McCaskey: Do you honestly believe you're a better human being, a better Christian, for having to obey these types of restrictions outside of school property?

This isn't as easy to answer, however I will say this. Generally speaking, Christians will not believe themselves to be better or worse than anyone else. Obeying a bunch of man made rules has nothing to do with the way they would feel about themselves. Again, I'm speaking in generalities here.

There almost certainly are exceptions to this. Some Christians will enumerate certain activities and forbid them, either to themselves or to their families, and they'll conduct their lives around these prohibitions. Card playing, for instance. Drinking is another one, as is dancing. You'll find people who are otherwise kind and compassionate, who won't tolerate dancing but are perfectly okay with card playing. These people won't consider themselves to be a better Christian than anyone else, or a better person than anyone else. They won't even consider making that comparison. They will, however, consider themselves to be better off for observing these disciplines than they would be otherwise - they make a self-comparison, rather like me saying that I'm better off because I go to the gym than I would be otherwise, even though you can't tell the difference. Yet.

Instead of trying to eradicate bad behavior by passing more and stricter rules, the school authorities should be working on changing the hearts of their students and teaching them the basis for solid moral standards. If they did that they wouldn't need any of these rules.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

MadJack - legislate morality? by having rules against the prom? Are they funding lobbyists to get their "radical" rules made into legislation? Are they trying to ban Ohio proms? NO.

Our culture's morality is legislated simply by have laws against murder.

Why does it bother you if the school's convictions and standards are higher than your own? It's their own prerogative AND FREEDOM AND RIGHT. You don't run their school.

McCaskey - theaters were not allowed. If one didn't like the rule, nobody was holding them hostage.

The school frowned on mixed swimming, therefore they didn't sponsor such activities. If one went to the beach, suspension or punishment was not looming.

These rules come down to convictions versus principles. The school held certain convictions expressed in the rules. Is it somehow wrong to have rules others might see as strict? Other schools don't all hold the same convictions, but they still hold the same Christian principles. Just because a conviction isn't shared by all Christians doesn't mean the one with lesser standards is not Christian.

The Apostle Paul dealt with this in 1 Corinthians 8.

http://www.bible-history.com/kjv/1+Corinthians/8/

The school frowned on mixed swimming, therefore they didn't sponsor such activities

Well, I would understand why rock music and movies, like mixed swimming, would not be sponsored by the school, if it's the school's conviction that such activities lead to...well, what was it the Hertiage principal said....'lustful situations'?

I understand why Heritage Christian would not sponsor a prom, be it on their property or anywhere else.

Extending this circumstance to situations not of their control or under their direct sphere of influence is something else altogether.

Frankly, i very much hope this becomes a legal case because I want to see the arguments and the wording of the ' school code.'

As an aside, the Findlay Courier link carries some interesting statements and opinions fron individuals who have attended this school in years past.

Do you get what I said about convictions and principals and why such rules exist?

There is no legal ground to stand on for the rule-breaker. - the case won't even be looked at.

I bet if the kid had just went without asking he would have been fine. Instead, doofy expects his principal to be OK with going to a prom. This kid doesn't belong in Christian education apparently.

did in fact sign the release form. So much for 'convictions.' If he had not signed the form the kid could not have even gone to the prom in the first place.

I bet if the kid had just went without asking he would have been fine

Odd thing to say from someone who apparently attaches such importance to 'convictions.'

In any event, again, the kid needed a signed release from his principal or he could not have gone, that's the Findlay HS rule. The Heritage principal signed the form, warned the kid about possible consequences, then went to the school's 'committee' where it was determined he should be suspended if he went.

The 'convictions' argument could have just as easily apply to the principal, who could have said at the very beginning of all this, 'Sorry, I can't sign this for you, it's against school rules to dance or listen to rock music.'

Picture of the couple attending the prom and--gasp!!--holding hands...

http://www.thecourier.com/

Perhaps, at the end of the day, you're right--this kid shouldn't be in a 'Christian' school, which says more about the school than about him

He signed it and said this is what will happen. You have a choice. There would have been complaints whether he signed it or not.

My statement was not really odd - it probably is what the kid was thinking after this all started up.

Christian education isn't for everyone. Complaining about the rules will do nothing.

Bunch of goofballs. Probably could do some digging and find out half the school staff are kiddie porn freaks.

"We're all riding on the Hindenburg, no sense fighting over the window seats"-Richard Jenni

Yeah. Heritage is all about Sharia law.

I happened to check out your website and I see you're heading to California soon and will be visiting Venice Beach, where, as your wife says, 'all the weird people' or something to that effect, are. Having been there myself I can tell you that, yes, there are certainly people of all walks of life, dressed in all kinds of attire (maybe not dressed is more apt) who go there.

I see you're in law school so I figure you for around 22-23 years old. By the rules of your high school of 4 or 5 years ago I'd take it you'd be unable to visit a place like Venice Beach. Do you believe in your high school days you'd be unable to handle a public place of that nature but now that you're older you can, or how does that all work?

I don't recall there being specific rules about beaches and such. The school just didn't specifically sponsor mixed swimming and such.

those are all very good questions. I hope Thomas will provide answers.

It is totally unbelieveable to me that a school would in their code of conduct undermine a parent's right to parent the child. I thought conservatives and by conservatives I mean religious conservatives valued parent over government in all things. Where does this school or any other entity have the right to overrule a parent.

This child's conduct outside of school has absolutely nothing to do with what happens inside of the school. No one is trying to change the rules of the school, just making choices and decisions that have absolutely nothing to do with the school.

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