#TBTOL To put that in perspective, Carty (the endorsed Democrat), won in 2005 with 48899 votes (PDF). Congrats TBT.
Read more:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090409/NEWS16/904090281
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=6753449
http://www.toledofreepress.com/2009/04/09/take-back-toledo-files-recall-petitions/
http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=284990
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=10155576&nav=menu34_1
The numbers of signatures seem to vary between reports.
From the article:
"Deputy Elections Director Jeremy Demagall said his office has hired 30 temporary employees, at a likely cost of between $10,000 and $15,000, to verify the signatures on the petitions
I thought this wasn't going to cost the taxpayers any money?
Pink Slip
You mean the government's money, don't you?
No lauralbloom, I mean taxpayer money. That's why I said "taxpayer money".
Interesting that no one is pointing out the fact the TBT folks like Brian & Fred completely lied about the cost of this. For what, potentially one month's worth of recall? Talk about a waste of taxpayer money--and this also makes them hypocrites.
Pink Slip
Critics of the French in 1776 said that supporting the rebellion in the American Colonies against England was a waste of money.. Whether it's one month or one day CF needs to be discouraged from running for any office ever again. He has assasinated the character of so many people who were good for Toledo. It's time he gets what he deserves. Let him move to Colorado. We don't want him here. As far as the cost is concerned, it's a very small price to pay compared to the flowers, the bike paths, and who knows what else. Let CF eat his own feces.
You're such a freedom fighter!!! I love the way you compare a WSPD-led vendetta to the founding of our country.
Pink Slip
pink, try to see it as economic development obama style. the people counting the signatures now have jobs they wouldn't normally be doing. they will now have spendable income and will have taxes taken from the paychecks they earn. it's a win win democrat style.
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
It's Ironic freddy that the mayor once accused you of "mistruths, half-truths and outright lies". And it seems he was right. You lied. How many people did TBT/WSPD convince to sign the petition based on lies?
Pink Slip
I think over 40,000 at this point, pretty good eh?
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
Yeah, good job liar.
Pink Slip
thank you, thank you. i appreciate the kudos and will work hard to retain your trust in me as it is important to my self esteem.
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
Pink, by your responses in this thread, I can only assume you are Carty's paid mouthpiece on SB. Why else would you have your head so far up his butt?
I don't support Carty, and have never voted for him. But I am decidedly anti-WSPD. So if I point out the fact that our local propaganda station (and Toyko LeFebvre) misleads and lies, it has nothing to do with the mayor.
Pink Slip
In my opinion, there are two potentially fatal flaws in the petition. It remains to be seen if the Carty and the city will pick up on it. It is their only conceivable way to get this thrown off the ballot. It could violate two sections of the ORC.
you may as well say it now that you have us all wondering :)
not being a lawyer but one who has been involved in my political legal battles and has researched alot on related issues, it could very well violate 731.33 and 3501.38(J). Who knows how the legal system would deal with it.
The petition was vetted by the city law director. I know Adam Loukx quite well. He would not commit legal malpractice for this mayor or anybody else.
Adam Loukx has always struck me as a straight shooter who avoids politics as much as possible. While Dave Schulz's legal comments may indeed be valid, I doubt Loukx is part of a rope-a-dope conspiracy by Carty.
The important point is that there are a number of legal grey areas that will probably see some challenge by the mayor if he does intend to run for reelection as most pundits expect. Heck, he will probably try some challenges even if he doesn't run, if for no reason than to preserve his legacy (yes, he has one, even if you think it is only in his head).
These are fairly uncharted legal waters without a ton of precedents to begin with, and the recall campaign is of course cranking up the Unusual Factor Dial by pushing for a recall within months of the regular election for the same office.
While I still reserve my personal reservations about the wisdom and timing of TBT, I have to admit this campaign fascinates me as a political observer with its inumerable permutations of possible outcomes.
http://historymike.blogspot.com/
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/731.33
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3501.38
I'm going to leave this alone now rather than parse words.
We'll see how it plays out. We'll all know for sure in 10 calendar days.
Brian, what of the cost? You said it wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything.
Pink Slip
On the petition form I saw, I am about 90% sure I do not remember ORC 731.33 being met, though I cannot say with any certainty that ORC 3501.38J was met.
Frigging loopholes. Nice find, Dave.
http://historymike.blogspot.com/
...whether or not ORC 731.33 is applicable to a recall petition for mayor. This chapter deals with ordinances or referendums initiated by the public under municipal organization. The chapter refers to ordinances passed by council that are subject to referendum and also to ordinances the public wants to implement when a legislative authority has not acted.
For example: the red-light camera charter amendment IS subject to this ORC section and does have the required wording in red at the top of each page of the petition.
Not being an attorney, this is a questioning of the applicability - not a definitive answer...
ORC 3501.38 does apply since that ORC chapter deals specifically with election procedures.
That being said, it doesn't mean Carty won't challenge the petitions under every possible ORC reference he can find...
IMO, he had no business vetting this petition if he did.
you can't commit legal malpractice if you don't get paid for advice. who in their right mind would ask Carty's lawyer for legal advice?
The Board of Elections can just throw out all pages of petitions that do not conform to the ORC. The law-abiding men and women of TBT should have no trouble conforming to the law. They also have time to go to the public to request more signatures. After all, they are still learning the business of politicking.
Old South End Broadway
You mean like every one? lol
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3501.38
Bottom of the page, section (L)
(L) If a board of elections distributes for use a petition form for a declaration of candidacy, nominating petition, or any type of question or issue petition that does not satisfy the requirements of law as of the date of that distribution, the board shall not invalidate the petition on the basis that the petition form does not satisfy the requirements of law, if the petition otherwise is valid. Division (L) of this section applies only if the candidate received the petition from the board within ninety days of when the petition is required to be filed.
If ''CON' is the opposite of 'PRO', does that mean Congress is the opposite of Progress?
We are not making blanket assumptions here about sections J and L, but rather discussing possible legal challenges that Finkbeiner will explore. Besides, our interpretation of the law is moot, since judges will make the final call if Carty goes to court on this.
http://historymike.blogspot.com/
not the Lucas County Board of Elections. Though perhaps I am wrong. I checked TBT's website, and their petition online did not have the phrase noted in ORC 731.33 at the top of their petition (a .pdf). If lots of people downloaded this form, and it was not corrected before use (it should be easy for some people to remember if the phrase was at the top of the form) then the form is invalid. Of course, people could lie about whether the form had that phrase at the top. If they really want Carty out then they will not admit to signing an invalid form so this may just be a technical problem if those handling the forms pasted strips with the phrase printed on them to the tops of the form before submission. It will be an interesting test of the integrity of those opposed to Carty.
Old South End Broadway
However the phrase is on the TBT petition, just not in red ink as outlined in ORC 731.33.
If ''CON' is the opposite of 'PRO', does that mean Congress is the opposite of Progress?
..."the top of each part" of the petition. In my world "the top" would be the top of the page. It makes it much clearer to the signee of what s/he could be guilty if s/he falsified the signature or address information. Of course, why be a stickler for rules in this case.
Old South End Broadway
OSEB, you're reading of things in your post is non-sense re: the "Of course, people could lie about whether the form had that phrase at the top. If they really want Carty out then they will not admit to signing an invalid form so this may just be a technical problem if those handling the forms pasted strips with the phrase printed on them to the tops of the form before submission."
Libs, you're post about section L is irrelevant in this case.
...Either the statement was on the original petitions before they had signatures put on them, or not. The copy of the petition supplied as a .pdf on TBT's website for downloading does not have the statement (as you pointed out in your post on ORC 731.33). Perhaps they corrected this on the petitions that they presented to the public for their signatures. Or perhaps this statement was added after the signatures were added. All's fair in politics.
Old South End Broadway
Looking at the picture in the front page of Friday's April 10th Toledo Blade I now know why Andy Stuart is in radio!
~The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism~
Sir William Osler
Amen brother!
Here's to the crazy ones, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
If Carty does find a loophole and avoids recall, it would just infuriate more people because we don't want him. Why doesn't he leave on his own.
WE DON'T WANT HIM !
If he is smarmy enough to re-decorate the Erie Street Market using 13 checks for $9999 each in order to bypass city council, then he has proven that honor is meaningless to him.
If ''CON' is the opposite of 'PRO', does that mean Congress is the opposite of Progress?
It's interesting how almost everyone gets passionate about how taxpayer's money is being spent. I for one don't get passionate about how it's spent because even though I'm a taxpayer, once the money leaves my hand and goes into the government's hands, it's not my or your money anymore. It's money paid to the government by taxpayers. It's the government's money !
OSEB, not everything is fair in politics. What you suggest about adding the language after the signatures is a FELONY.
Nothing to do wtih his honor on this, it is about the petition following the law.
It would come down to how you define the word "measure" The measure would be the question of recalling the mayor and this clearly is an initiative petition.
731.32 Copy of proposed ordinance or measure filed with auditor or clerk.
Whoever seeks to propose an ordinance or measure in a municipal corporation by initiative petition or files a referendum petition against any ordinance or measure shall, before circulating such petition, file a certified copy of the proposed ordinance or measure with the city auditor or the village clerk.
As used in this section, “certified copy” means a copy containing a written statement attesting that it is a true and exact reproduction of the original proposed ordinance or measure or of the original ordinance or measure.
...still refers to actions of a legislative nature - not an election matter. Additionally, since the term 'measure' is coupled with the term 'ordinance,' it's clear that the context of the chapter relates to matters of legislation, not of election. 'Recall' is clearly an election matter.
This is why I don't believe ORC 731 is applicable to the recall petition. But, as I said earlier, if Carty thinks he can use that section to challenge the validity of the petitions, he will. If he decides to challenge the petitions, he'll throw everything at it.
I would hope the Board of Elections would settle this quickly before they spend 10-15,000 on counting suspect petitions. This would be county money in this case.
Re: waste of taxpayer's money. If you were in Carty's shoes you would fight this however you could. You know you would.
Re: measure, one could ask then why was it even put on the petition in the first place if it isn't required. Where would the petitioners get the language from; out of the air or from 731.33? And also, legislative intent would have to come into play in the court's opinion. They could mean to use measure generically to include any other item that could appear on the ballot. What would the purpose be to limit a certain election matter that this would apply to?
....while ORC 731 may not be applicable, the other section you referenced which calls for similar type of language is...
Even your use of the term 'legislative' intent implies (for the city's case) an ordinance or law. A recall is neither - it is a matter related to the selection (or removal) of an office holder.
There is a difference between items appearing on a ballot versus items dealing with the 'election' of officeholders. That's why there are different chapters within the ORC.
Matters dealing with the selection of office holders are not treated the same as legislative matters in many areas of the ORC despite both appearing on a ballot.
HONOR?? SHAME?? You people never cease to amaze me! You have to have a conscience for things like that. You always totally ignore the fact you're dealing with a sociopath.
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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'
You also must realize that the mayor is a misanthrope.
Let's face it folks, if Carty were smart, he would have resigned a long time ago instead of torturing the people of the city he claims he loves so much. A very good fiend of mine, who is a mayor of a small city in Ohio, was with Carty a few days ago in Cleveland meeting with Governor Strickland and a representative from the Obama Administration. Word is, Carty was received very coldly. Word is, Toledo ain't getting very much unitl Carty is out of office. If Carty loves Toledo so much why isn't he stepping down so we can get some of the Federal funds now before it's all gone.
Hmmm...perhaps...but I still think sociopath fits him better. I've also suspected for decades that he was a wife-beater.
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'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'
From: Dictionary.com
sociopath [(soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-uh-path)]
Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others. (Compare psychopath.)
Sounds accurate to me.
I think this whole recall things is a waste - it's so close to the next election, the whole idea seems pretty pointless to me. And yes, it is going to cost the taxpayers.
Pointless waste of human energy! Will the principles reimburse the taxpayers for monies lost on this folly? I think city council should address this issue at least bring it to the public's attention.
~The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism~
Sir William Osler
If you claim that the this recall is a "pointless waste of human energy" and want to know if "the principles reimburse the taxpayers for monies lost on this folly" then I also have to assume that you were "outraged" when 13ABC did the story on your mayor spending $120,000 behind the taxpayers back and in spite of your "City Council".
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=6357256
Are you demanding that Carty and City Council reimburse the taxpayers for that waste of money?
Are you demanding City Council do an investigation into the abuse of power by your mayor?
If ''CON' is the opposite of 'PRO', does that mean Congress is the opposite of Progress?
I never said that I do not agree with some of your reasons for the recall. I agree that government transparency is a legit argument but I don't think kicking the man out three months early will solve anything probably will cause more problems as has been previously stated. Look within the next two months Northwest Ohio region will need to work together because a sunami is headed our way. I have spoke in an earlier post of this weeks Deadline Now April 10 show. GM and Chrysler are headed for a disaster that none of our local leaders will be in control of. Bickering and pissing in the sand will solve nothing. It will be a lifestyle change to say the least for the entire region. I've talked about this issue for years its about to land squarely on Toledo like a ton of bricks. I fear for what will happen this summer in the central city areas. This has been in the making for decades by our national elected leadership pertaining to trade agreements but that is water over the dam now what will be is what will be... get ready.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-midwest-auto-demiseap...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-090411auto-link,0,585...
~The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism~
Sir William Osler
Remember, as long as Carty is in office, the longer we will be the laughing stock of America. We need to show the rest of the country we mean business instead of continuing to being enslaved by villians. It's never too soon to overthtow the oppressors.
Talk about drinking the Kool-Aid.
What part of Carty's anatomy do you have your head stuck in, Dave? I am glad we do have a democratic process of sorts. If we didn't we would be no different than some bananna republic. God Bless America and down with the despots. We don't want Carty anymore. Carty says he loves Toledo. Well, we don't love him.