During a deficit, the city sponsors a religious event???

The City of Toledo's 2009 EGG XTRAVAGANZA will be held this Saturday, April 4 from 1 - 3 p.m. at the Liz Person Open Air Shelter at Ottawa Park (2200 Kenwood Blvd.). This free, family-oriented event will feature an Easter egg hunt, face painting, arts & crafts, and a special visit from the Easter Bunny. EGG XTRAVAGANZA is sponsored by the City of Toledo Department of Neighborhoods, Division of Recreation. For more information, call 419-936-2700.

So we're 27 million in debt, but they can still afford an Easter event? I am a Christian, and I say let our churches sponsor Easter events.

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..to be pagan celebrations.

Old South End Broadway

Why should the city sponsor them?

In good times or deficit?

I suppose we ought also to get rid of the word Easter, which comes from the name of an old Anglo-Saxon goddess. As well, we might trashcan the names of the week: Monday (moon day), Tuesday (Tiewes day, a Norse god), Wednesday (Woden's day), Thursday (Thor's day), Friday ( Freyja's day, another Germanic god), Saturday (Saturn's day, a Greek-Latin diety), and Sunday (day of the sun). Many of the churches in Europe are built on the sites of ancient Roman and Greek temples so I guess we could destroy the churches and move them to other places. Christianity is built on the physical cultural-religious ruins of paganism, as well as on the intellectual works of Plato, Aristotle, and the Neo-Platonists. It's not like Christianity sprang whole out of thin air.

I fail to see what your post has to do with the city sponsoring an event.

dont pretty much ALL english works have roots?

And destroy european churches just because they were built on pagan sites?? What brought that up?

Or are you just playing "look what I know?"

I was replying to OSEB's observation about Easter egg hunts being pagan. Sorry if I strayed from the topic of your post and excluded you from my remarks. I'll be careful to walk on tiptoes around you from now on and stay on topic so as not to bruise your fragile ego.

Be sure you do.

...civil organization to sponsor a pagan event rather than a Christian organization. Christians use Easter to celebrate the death of Christ and his resurrection, not the Easter bunny and the hunts for its eggs. Unless we are going to claim that Easter egg hunts are now "religious" and ban government participation in this ritual also.

Old South End Broadway

Paganism is a religion
Christianity is a religion.
Your point is incorrect.

Now, if you mean it makes more sense for (and Im not going to say 'civil organization' , Im going to say the government) to sponsor a 'secular' event, rather than a "Christian" event, I might agree.

BUT- Easter Eggs or a Crucifix, Santa Clause or a Manger - if the city is 27 frigging million in debt, they shouldnt be sponsoring either one.

In fact - not even when the city's NOT in debt.

Our entire society comes from somewhere besides the here-and-now... it's our cultural heritage. We'd be living a pretty sterile existence if we decided to eliminate ALL vestiges of the past from our culture. Easter eggs, Santa Claus and trick-or-treating (and even Christmas) are part of who we are. You come off as a kind of Scrooge if you want to get rid of Easter egg hunts. I also doubt the city is spending that much on this.

I also doubt the city is spending that much on this.

This is the type of thinking that got us here in the first place. Tell me, if you couldnt pay your mortgage, but you REALLY wanted that hot new CD that just got released would you justify it because you didnt spend all that much on it?


It's time to cut the bleeding. NOW


You talk about Santa Claus, trick or treat, easter egg hunts - they're all fine!! and YES they are part of our heritage - but you can find Santa in malls, paid for by the mall. Trick or treating is free, or sponsored by different organizations. Easter Egg hunts are everywhere, just go look for them!!

Scrooge? I think Im being more like the ant, there - grasshopper!

Easter egg hunts would seem to violate the separation of church and state (although do pagans have "churches"). Time to get the ACLU involved. It would also cut the wasteful expenditure of our taxes in these trying times. Put this question out there to be answered, http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090403202842AAYjRKn.

Old South End Broadway

Anyone who claims that Christianity is of pagan origin either showst their "aggressive ignorance".


"It is not at all surprising in view of the wide and growing influence of these religions that when the disciples in Antioch and elsewhere preached a crucified and risen Jesus they should be regarded as the heralds of another mystery religion, and that Jesus himself should be taken for the divine Lord of the cult through whose death and resurrection salvation was to be had. That there were striking similarities between the developing church and these religions cannot be denied. Even Christian apologist had to admit that fact.

"Christianity triumphed over these mystery religions after long conflict. This triumph may be attributed in part to the fact that Christianity took from its opponents their own weapons, and used them: the better elements of the mystery religions were transferred to the new religion. "As the religious history of the empire is studied more closely," writes Cumont, "the triumph of the church will, in our opinion, appear more and more as the culmination of a long evolution of beliefs. We can understand the Christianity of the fifth century with its greatness and weakness, its spiritual exaltation and its puerile superstitions, if we know the moral antecedents of the world in which it developed."

"Christian doctrine then established itself in this chasm, while at the same time reinterpreting the Below as the created and the Above as the Creator, and with weapons thus reforged, it set itself against antiquity [as Paganism] and distorted it. And so Nietzsche is right to say that Christianity is Platonism for the people."
Introduction to Metaphysics, Martin Heidegger

"The third of what we called the scientific religions, which outstrips the others in historical significance, inasmuch as it provided the foundations for Christian philosophy, is Neoplatonism." The Origins of Scientific Thought, Santillana

"With the advent of Neoplatonism founded by Ammonius and developed by Plotinus, Platonism definitely entered the cause of Paganism against Christianity. Nevertheless, the great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists. They appreciated the uplifting influence of Plato's psychology and metaphysics, and recognized in that influence a powerful ally of Christianity in the warfare against materialism and naturalism. ... there are many philosophers and groups of philosophers in modern times who owe much to the inspiration of Plato, and to the enthusiasm for the higher pursuits of the mind which they derived from the study of his works." Catholic Encyclopedia (1911), http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12159a.htm

"That which is known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the beginning of the human race until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed began to be called Christianity." Saint Augustine of Hippo, Retractions, Book One, Part 12

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians (who differed from their fellow Jews only in the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah,) was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief. The doctrine of the incarnation, and the mystery of transubstantiation, were both adopted, and are both as repugnant to reason, as was the ancient pagan rite of viewing the entrails of animals to forecast the fate of empires!" History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon

Etc., etc. The bottom line is that Christianity drew upon ancient philosophy and cultures to form its tenets.

everytime I read anything that has to do with religion on this site. So many of you are clueless! Stick to politics and all your other complaints....leave religion to the experts.


I nominate this post as "The Best Post Ever!"

well done, Kooz.

jayott - your link is pretty meaningless, as far as your wanting to make a point that Christianity did not evolve from paganism. I've read entirely too much from many other sources that shows that Christianity did evolve from paganism. (try watching Part 1 of Zeitgeist for starters - it provides an excellent timeline & explanation). I do not want banter religion on this board, but geez, just because somebody is religious & doesn't like to hear how Christianity began & evolved (the facts), because it conflicts with what they believe - does not mean the facts are wrong. It's the same mentality that religious people leap to when they're confronted with scientific evidence that the earth is older than 6 thousand years old, and that skeletons have been found that are dated to millions of years old - it throws off the Biblical time line, so therefore, they say the scientists made it all up.
Don't bother arguing this with me because I'm done discussing religion on this board & will not banter back & forth on it anymore.
I agree with Billy - that the city should not be paying for anything like this right now, and the fact that this is related to Easter has nothing to do with it. This is what churches should be doing - not the city, especially when the city is so broke it's laying off cops & firemen. The CD/mortgage analogy was a good one.

I've taken course work on this very subject....

Christianity did not evolve from Paganism. Christianity evolved from and through the worship of Christ.

Modern day Christian celebrations incorporate Pagan practices, celebrations, feast-days, etc..They basically invented their own holidays that fell around the same time as Pagan festivals--to rival them. BUT they did so to make the Pagans feel welcome and follow Christ instead of Pagan gods.

So, some Christian sects celebrate using once Pagan practices. This was a marketing/recruitment ploy --that, of course, is a nice way of putting it, and a nicer means of recruitment than say, that of the Inquisition

. No matter how or when Christians celebrate, they are celebrating Christ, not Pagan gods, therefore, they are practicing Christianity. OF course all Christian holydays are enjoyed secularly, too. The Easter Egg and Santa Claus are two of those secular icons that have EVOLVED from Christianity.

If the city can't put up a nativity display at Christmas, then they shouldn't be sponsoring an Easter Egg hunt, budget crisis or not.

I've got my own feelings about Easter Egg hunts--they
are just another way that we socialize children to redistribute wealth and to acheive no more than mediocrity. When I was a kid, I could take all the eggs I could find. If I found fifty and Billy found two....too bad for him. I might share with him, if he was cute or if he cried hard enough, but that would be my choice. I was faster, smarter, and got more eggs. Nowadays, there is a limit to the number you can keep. Everyone has to stop at, say, five so that no one is treated unfairly, no one cries. Everyone's happy? Happy Easter!

I've got my own feelings about Easter Egg hunts--they
are just another way that we socialize children to redistribute wealth and to acheive no more than mediocrity

Heh...sounds like someone's looking at clouds and picturing scary monsters. Very telling...

Pink Slip

Pink, I thought you knew me well enough to at least get a chuckle out of that one.

PS: I don't like Pinatas either.

Or clouds. They redistribute water to cities that don't earn it by having their own lakes.

Countering an assertion with documented evidence is not meaningless.

In fact, just the opposite is true. What is meaningless is when someone says--"I've looked at some evidence, yet I refuse to believe it. I suppress it.  Therefore, I want to silence you. Instead, I will just keep raising the amount of evidence required so high that it will be impossible for anyone to give any more evidence."

The problem is not with evidence, the problem is a matter of "aggressive ignorance" regarding evidence. The problem might also have to do with the standard of proof.  If one is looking for 100% certainty, then of course no one will be convinced of anything.  Not even crossing the street.   It makes no difference if you are an Asian or a Westerner,  finding one's way to a Chinese restaraunt or a McDonald's is done exactly the same way.  And that was my point.  

The broader application is it is the same kind of reasoning some of our elected officials use and some of our voters. 

I admit that it's possible that the article is wrong, but I'll never know because no one is capable of refuting it. The most likely reason is because they haven't read it. It's not my problem if people are not convinced by evidence.

But why should I roll over and let an ad hominem assertion go by? I don't cut and paste here and I didn't have time to go thru notes and write a brief answer. Besides, there wasn't enough space and I certaintly was not going to plagarize like the mayor does.

You yourself admitted that you've looked at some evidence, yet remain unconvinced. That's fine, but you are not the "only elephant in the room."

I could be wrong, but you say that you are not going to argue with me but you respond to my post yet it sounds like you don't want me to respond back.

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