I have a serious question about the Big Three bailout.

Let me prefece the question with some  background.

1) The taxpayers of the United States of America are being asked to loan billions of dollars to the Big Three auto makers.

2) Two of The Big Three say they will run out of cash before the end of the year, the 3rd says it will run out of money early next year.

 3) The Big Three say this "loan" is needed because of the millions of jobs that will be lost.

4) All three of the Big Three are multi-national corporations with factories in the following countries: 

Chrysler

http://www.allpar.com/corporate/factories/2005.html

Canadian Eastern Business Centre (Mississauga, Ontario)
Quebec Business Centre (Montreal, Quebec)
Canadian Western Business Centre (Calgary, Alberta)
Mexican National Sales Office (Santa Fe, Mexico)
Montreal (Quebec)
Red Deer (Alberta)
Vancouver (British Columbia)
Winnipeg (Manitoba)
Mexican Parts Distribution Center (Toluca Mexico)
Saltillo Engine  (Coahuila, Mexico)
Saltillo Truck Assembly and Stamping Plant  (Coahuila, Mexico)
Windsor Assembly  (Ontario , Canada)

Ford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories
AutoAlliance Thailand Rayong, Thailand        
Automobile Craiova Craiova, Romania
Barcelona Assembly Barcelona, Spain
Bahia Plant Camaçari, Bahia,Brazil
Blue Diamond Truck Escobedo, Coahuila, Mexico
Bordeaux Automatic Transmission Blanquefort, France 
Bordeaux Transaxle Blanquefort, France 
Bridgend Engine Bridgend, Wales
Broadmeadows Assembly Campbellfield, Victoria Australia
Browns Lane Assembly Coventry, England
Caracas Assembly Caracas, Venezuela
Castle Bromwich Assembly Birmingham, England
Chihuahua Engine Chihuahua, Chihuahua, Mexico
Cologne Body & Assembly Cologne, Germany
Cologne Engine Cologne, Germany
Cologne Forge and Die Cast Cologne, Germany
Cologne Tool and Die Cologne, Germany
Cologne Transmission Cologne, Germany
Croydon Stamping Croydon, England
Cork Assembly Cork, Ireland
Cuautitlán Assembly Cuautitlán Izcalli, México,
Dagenham Assembly Dagenham, England
Dagenham Engine Dagenham, England
Dagenham Tool & Die Dagenham, England
Ford India, Ltd. Tamil Nadu India
Ford Lio Ho Assembly Chung Li Taiwan
Ford Lio Ho Engine Chung Li Taiwan
Ford Malaysia Sdn. Bhd Selangor, Malaysia
Ford Motor Company of South Africa Port Elizabeth, South Africa
Ford Motor Company of Southern Africa, Ltd. Silverton, South Africa
Ford Motor Company Philippines Santa Rosa, Laguna Philippines
Ford Motor Company ZAO St. Petersburg, Russia
Ford Otosan Assembly Kocaeli, Turkey
Ford Otosan Engine Kocaeli, Turkey
Gaydon Assembly Gaydon, Warwickshire England
Geelong Aluminum Casting Norlane, Victoria Australia
Geelong Chassis Norlane, Victoria Australia
Geelong Engine Norlane, Victoria Australia
Geelong Iron Casting Norlane, Victoria Australia
Geelong Stamping Norlane, Victoria Australia
Genk Body & Assembly Genk, Belgium
Hai Duong Assembly, Ford Vietnam, Ltd. Hai Duong, Vietnam
Halewood Body & Assembly Halewood, England 
Halewood Transmission Halewood, England
Hermosillo Stamping & Assembly Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico
Hiroshima Plant Hiroshima, Japan
Hofu Plant Yamaguchi, Japan
IMMSA Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico
Ipiranga Assembly Ipiranga, Brazil   A    
Jiangling Motors Corp., Ltd. Nanchang, Jianxi China  
Land Rover Solihull Assembly Solihull, England
Langley Assembly Langley, Slough, England
Leamington Foundry Leamington Spa, England    
La Villa Assembly La Villa, Mexico
Manukau Alloy Wheel Manukau, Auckland, New Zealand
Metcon Casting Santa Fe Province, Argentina
Miyoshi Plant Hiroshima, Japan
Newport Pagnell Assembly Newport Pagnell, England
Oakville Assembly Oakville, Ontario, Canada
Assembly Buenos Aires Argentina
Rheine Assembly Rheine, Germany
Saarlouis Body & Assembly Saarlouis, Germany
Sao Bernardo Assembly Sao Bernardo do Campo, Brazi
Seaview Assembly Plant Lower Hutt, New Zealand
Southampton Body & Assembly Southampton, England
Setubal Assembly Setúbal, Portuga
St. Thomas Assembly Talbotville, Ontario, Canada
Swedish Motor Assembly Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
Taubate Chassis Taubate, São Paulo Brazil
TH!NK Nordic AS Aurskog, Norway
Thai-Swedish Assembly Co. Ltd. Samutprakarn Thailand
Valencia Assembly Valencia, Venezuela
Valencia Body & Assembly Valencia, Spain
Valencia Engine #1 Valencia, Spain
Valencia Engine #2 Valencia, Spain
Volvo Body Components Olofström, Sweden
Volvo Car Floby Floby, [[Sweden; ;]]
Volvo Car Plant Gothenburg, Sweden
Volvo Car Plant Uddevalla, Sweden
Volvo Engine Skövde, Sweden
Volvo Gent Plant Ghent, Belgium
Volvo Nedcar Born, Netherlands
Volvo Transmission Köping, Sweden
Windsor Aluminum Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Windsor Casting Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Windsor Engine Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Whitley Engineering Centre Whitley, West Midlands, United Kingdom

General Motors
http://www.gminsidenews.com/index.php?page=factory_guide
CAMI Automotive Plant—Ingersoll, Ontario
Oshawa Car Assembly Plant—Oshawa, Ontario
Truck Assembly Plant— Oshawa, Ontario
Catharines Engine Plant—
Windsor Transmission Plant—Windsor, Ontario
Ramos Arizpe—Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
ESilao Assembly- Silao, Mexico
oluca Assembly— Toluca, Mexico

Now the question that I have searched the internet for and cannot find the answer:

Has any of the Big Three, Ford, GM and or Chrysler, gone to Canada, Mexico, Sweden, Spain, Malaysia, England, Australia, Russia, Argentina, South Africa, China, etc etc and asked THOSE countries and their taxpayers for a loan?

Or does the Big Three only expect American Taxpayers to save those jobs in those foreign countries?

No votes yet

Yes

And

Yes 

This financial panic goes beyond the Big Three: Volkswagen Bank is applying for aid from Germany. BMW is likely to apply as well.

---------

"Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually dirty kitchen, andfive times out of nine I'll show you an exceptional man." -CharlesBukowski

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

Basically, my question is:

Are the Big Three asking for American Taxpayer money to subsidize jobs in their factories and holdings in foreign countries?

In other words, if the White House gives the Big Three a taxpayer funded "loan", will that "loan" money be used to pay foreign workers in foreign factories?

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

GREAT question!

Thanks, Sensor.

So apparently Canada DID pony up some cash for the Big 3. About 1/2 of what the car makers asked the Canadian Government for.

The Big 3 asked for $7 Billion Canadian dollars but the Canadian government put up $3.5 Billion Canadian dollars which equals about $2.5 Billion American dollars.

Now, since Ford has an assembly plant getting ready to go into production in Romania sometime in 2009 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Craiova), while the Maumee Stamping plant has been closed, will Romania come up with cash?

Or will Americans have injury added to insult by giving Ford BILLIONS to close Maumee and open in Romania?

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

With all these bailouts I'm still wondering who is going to bail out the American Taxpayer?

MikeyA

MikeyA

Obama has a plan.

The wealthiest taxpayers--those raking in more than 250,000, or maybe 200,000 or it could be 150,000 (the details are not firmly nailed down yet)--will bailout those taxpayers making less in the form of government assistance and programs.

With all this talk of bailouts, I think we need to find a bail bondsman.

From the LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-raynor18-2008dec18,...

When one compares how the auto industry and the financial sector are being treated by Congress, the double standard is staggering. In the financial sector, employee compensation makes up a huge percentage of costs. According to the New York state comptroller, it accounted for more than 60% of 2007 revenues for the seven largest financial firms in New York.

At Goldman Sachs, for example, employee compensation made up 71% of total operating expenses in 2007. In the auto industry, by contrast, autoworker compensation makes up less than 10% of the cost of manufacturing a car. Hundreds of billions were given to the financial-services industry with barely a question about compensation; the auto bailout, however, was sunk on this issue alone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1081624/Goldman-Sachs-...

The American auto industry has to grovel for funding to keep its operations afloat, but these corporate whores have taxpayer bailout money at their disposal to be spent on fucking bonuses...in the billions.

A pathetic joke.

You make a good point McCaskey, however there is at least one difference I can see.

The auto bailout would include sending American Taxpayer money to foreign plants in foreign countries to foreign workers to buy foreign houses for their foreign families. Granted, Ford, Crystler and GM are American companies, but where are PT Crusiers built? Mexico. Where is the F150 built? Canada. Where is the Buick Regal built? Canada.

Why would any American, including those Maumee Stamping plant ex-employees, and those losing their overpriced American homes due to American banks and the Americans who took out those loans so their American families had a house.

Now, besides shipping jobs overseas, Congress and the President want to send taxpayer money overseas and to hell with your American house payments.

YOU and I are losing our houses while Ford plans to open a production plant in Romaina?

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

What? Unlike Goldman Sachs?

Goldman Sachs’s Tax Rate Drops to 1%, or $14 Million

Dec. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc., which got $10 billion and debt guarantees from the U.S. government in October, expects to pay $14 million in taxes worldwide for 2008 compared with $6 billion in 2007.

The company’s effective income tax rate dropped to 1 percent from 34.1 percent, New York-based Goldman Sachs said today in a statement. The firm reported a $2.3 billion profit for the year after paying $10.9 billion in employee compensation and benefits.

.S. Representative Lloyd Doggett, a Texas Democrat who serves on the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, said steps by Goldman Sachs and other banks shifting income to countries with lower taxes is cause for concern.

“This problem is larger than Goldman Sachs,” Doggett said. “With the right hand out begging for bailout money, the left is hiding it offshore.”

Libs, does this mean you are also against foreign car makers setting up shop in the South by using taxpayer-funded subsidies?

Pink Slip

Pink Slip

However, if a foreign auto plant is built in the USA , it is built by American workers, will be staffed by American workers and pay American taxes. Since tax rates are one of the things driving employeers overseas, a tax cut or rebate would be preferred. That is a tax cut for everyone. Including corporations. But a Ford plant in Romania would take money right out of America.

What this Bail-out would do to Unions in America is actually pretty exciting to me since Unions are a Marxist idea, but I wonder if the "average" Union Joe has really thought about where this bail-out would go?

If they really thought about it and after learning what happened with the Wall Street Bailout money, I would think EVERYONE would be up in arms about President Bush giving taxpayer money to the Big 3. Otherwise, the UAW would be losing members, and losing MONEY as they send their money overseas to help the contries that took their jobs set up shop.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

Here's what Adam Smith said in regards to unions (and it certainly rings true today):

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual rate[.]

When workers combine, masters ... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, laborers, and journeymen."

Pink Slip

Pink Slip

As long as human beings are willing to work for subsistence wages, or below, those who want more than the bare minimum will always be undercut. Your comment that unions are a Marxist idea may be true if the Marxist idea predates Marx's working life. There have been combinations in guilds, professional organizations (that govern prices), and, after the fact, unions. What I believe is interesting is that I doubt auto assembly plants will continue to exist in Northwest Ohio no matter what happens. The costs of energy (especially to heat worker's homes ) are going up, not down, and once their wages are reduced they might voice a demand that their places of work be moved to areas where the cost of living is less. So, locally, those of us who depend on this industry are screwed.

Old South End Broadway

"This organization of the proletarians into a class, and, consequently, into a political party, is continually being upset again by the competition between the workers themselves,,,It compels legislative recognition of particular interests of the workers, by taking advantage of the divisions among the bourgeoisie itself."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

The quote you presented fails to back up your earlier comment that unions are a "Marxist idea". Sorry, but Karl Marx didn't invent the idea of organized labor.

Pink Slip

Pink Slip

http://legacy.usw.org/uswa/program/content/291.php, "It’s fitting that the Declaration of Independence was signed in the gathering hall of the local Philadelphia Guild of Carpenters in 1776. After all, the promise of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are only meaningful when workers are able to reap the just rewards of their labors."

Old South End Broadway

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