This is simply incomprehensible:
This is a travesty. Eight years after the Florida debacle, we're still dealing with this situation? Hey, it's only the most important thing we do as a democracy. No need to get it right.

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We're still dealing with Florida voter denials since we were never willing to address the issue in full in the first place. Not even the NAACP was willing to pursue the matter dutifully and diligently.

Face facts: The Black voter in Florida quite simply HAS NO ADVOCATES. Not even the snot-nosed Liberal Whitebrats are willing to leave their comfy universities in the North and go South like they did in the 1960s to try to rally Black voting by canvassing and assisting with affirmative voter registration.

We can't even fix our OWN voting system in Ohio. In a week or so, since my registration is an affluent and White area, I'll just walk into my voting station, and vote, and leave ... well within 8 minutes. In comparison, poor Blacks in Cleveland (i.e. Democrats) will stand in line for fucking HOURS. Students in rural Ohio campuses (i.e. Democrats) will have to endure the same. And we still tolerate it! Here! In Ohio!

P.S. Bev Harris of has well documented what a SCAM these e-voting machines are. They are not secure. They are not auditable. In fact, they seem to be DESIGNED for committing vote fraud.

While it's true this may happen to Homer Simpson Sunday, I won't believe it until it happens on Family Guy. I think we all know Simpsons is not always accurate while Family Guy and King Of The Hill stick pretty much to the truth.
Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only th

Any statement I make is the opinion of me exercising my first amendment right to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is generally permitted.

I always try to say nice things about you, too.




That's a fancy new name you've got there. Have you been to "The Captain's" recently?


"Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually dirty kitchen, and
five times out of nine I'll show you an exceptional man." -Charles

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

It's called 'enable rich text'.
Anyone can use it .
Even you.
Want me to show you how ?

Why don't you drive over to my place... oh, nevermind, you can't.


"Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually dirty kitchen, andfive times out of nine I'll show you an exceptional man." -CharlesBukowski

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

See if I can't drive.

Go play internet toughguy somewhere else.


"Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually dirty kitchen, and five times out of nine I'll show you an exceptional man." -Charles Bukowski

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

the same douchebag re-invent himself so he can continually not contribute to the thread, troll away from the topic and harass legitimate posters who actually contribute to the site.

but that's how Chris wants things to run around here, I guess....

I don't know what you mean by "internet toughguy".
I merely responded to your crap.

But as long as you are asking, I would answer you the same way Herbie Howard told your butte Finkbeiner - "Hey, I don't own a restaurant". That means he is not John Skiadis and won't take his crap - he will kick his ass. "

"Don't walk away when you are losing an argument"

Because of their close ties to their good friend President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela who just happens to be part owner of Sequoia. The company that makes voting machines used in New York, Illinois, Indiana, Pennsylvania, California, New Jersey, Florida etc.

"The American company, Sequoia Voting Systems, was bought in March 2005 by the Smartmatic Corporation, a Venezuelan-owned software company whose only previous experience in the voting-machine business had been to overhaul Venezuela’s electoral machinery before a referendum that confirmed Hugo Chávez as president in August 2004."

"New York state is in the process of replacing its lever voting machines with new voting equipment, but the state revealed recently that it has found problems with 50 percent of the roughly 1,500 ImageCast optical-scan machines that Sequoia Voting Systems has delivered to the state so far - machines that are slated to be used by dozens of counties in the state's September 9 primary and November 4 presidential election. "

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a

The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

but anyone know why the old 'lever' machines were put out of commision? They were incredibly easy for everyone to use, from first-time voters to old-timers who might get flummoxed by a touch-screen setup. I loved taking my kids into the booth where they could pull the lever I told them to pull (although my then three-year-old almost mistakenly voted for Dole in '96, ha, ha). I don't recall any accuracy or tampering issues with them that were common-knowledge or well-publicized.

Media always likes to run "will electronic voting machines" cause problems before every election and you know what, there are not many problems. Nothing like spreading fear of the unknown and of technology before an important vote. Why are you suggesting there will be a problem? Electronic voting machines do not have a worse record than any other medium, but many people love to kick them around. You will not have good elections until you have good workers and a good process, plain and simple. Any medium (paper, optical scans etc) will have problems if the process is not good.

You can read more on my way out of date (but still a good read) site .

Chris, it's clear from what I said before. At the very least, e-vote machines simply can't be audited. It's very easy to UNDETECTABLY alter votes.

On top of that, the error rate for a computer-controlled voting machine should be so close to zero that it may as well be zero. Properly designed and of OPEN ARCHITECTURE, such a machine can not only check the voter's responses for errors, but can constantly diagnose ITSELF.

If we can make a HA (highly-available) computer server that essentially never crashes or loses data, then we can make one that tabulates votes without the astounding errors that BEV HARRIS of BLACKBOXVOTING.ORG has well documented so far.

Given the evidence she's dutifully uncovered over the years, it's become apparent to me that there are THREE major problems with these machines:

1. Closed architecture. In the professional computer world this mistake is called "security by obscurity". It never works. Simply hiding the design of the machine doesn't work. At the very least, the design doesn't undergo rigorous industry evaluation. The labs who make them tend to insularity and a frank failure of rigor. Since the architectures are closed, literally no one can say for sure that they're secure, and in fact corporate practices essentially predict that cost-cutting has compromised the security in the first place.

2. Time-to-market rush. These machines were rushed to market in order to score all those billions the Congress was handing out. Obviously that never ends well.

3. They're literally designed for fraud. This is true since each elections board is the real customer, NOT the voter. There is no real democracy in the USA, since each voting region is governed by a long-time political machine (as Toledo is ruled by a Democrat machine, as you well know, Chris). These political machines WANT vote fraud, since they will and DO do anything to secure their power. Hence each board of elections wasn't very insistent on security features. Again, Bev Harris' documentation shows this often enough.

The old mechanical switch and lever machines were decommissioned because of the 2000 election complaints. No other reason.

To give an analogy of GZ's admirable explanation, suppose you have your own business and you use a cash register. From time to time you do an audit, and the numbers don't always look right. Your staff swears innocence and point to the register as being the culprit. You decide to audit the register itself, but it turns out that validating the register is impossible. That's right. You own the register, your business depends on it, but neither you nor anyone you can hire outside of the manufacturer is able to tell you if the register is working properly.

And that, kiddies, is why the current electronic voting machines are no good.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

The older punchcard or tape systems were designed so that about the only fraud you could do was replacing entire tapes (which was quite an undertaking), or invalidating single votes that you didn't want. Hole-pattern alterations could NOT be made to grant votes, just invalidate the ones that existed.

In contrast, these e-vote machines can do anything. All it takes is a guy in a room with a reader/writer unit for one of these electronic storage cards (often an industry-standard interface, too!) and he can falsify the entire election. All the votes are merely on that card, often not encrypted*, and if you change that card, you've change the ONLY RECORD OF THE VOTE. Just by plugging the card in and running a program or tapping some keys. That's how easy the system is to commit fraud, and obviously a "recount" is pointless since the officials will just refer back to the same electronic storage cards.

Paper trails are still necessary. If a big fraud does take place, then the paper receipts from the machines (which the voter should have looked over while voting) can be matched to the cards. A SINGLE mismatch is more than enough evidence of tampering, hence fraud, hence in my opinion the entire election is a DO-OVER following the summary replacement of the entire local Board of Elections. Blackwell was a bit of an asshole, but when he slammed the Lucas County BOE for losing ballot boxes and double-counting boxes, he was RIGHT.

* Remember, Bev Harris caught one of these bastards (e-vote machine manufacturers, like Diebold, Sequoia or ES&S) assuming the card would NOT be read, hence there was ZERO encryption protecting it. SECURITY BY OBSCURITY DOESN'T WORK!)

the "Diebold" elections. I have told you that I firmly believe that the school board election was stolen from you because of the machines. So you don't think that your losing the election was a problem?

More W.Va. voters say machines are switching votes
In six cases, Democratic votes flipped to GOP

"WINFIELD, W.Va. -- Three Putnam County voters say electronic voting machines changed their votes from Democrats to Republicans when they cast early ballots last week.

This is the second West Virginia county where voters have reported this problem. Last week, three voters in Jackson County told The Charleston Gazette their electronic vote for "Barack Obama" kept flipping to "John McCain".

In both counties, Republicans are responsible for overseeing elections. Both county clerks said the problem is isolated.

They also blamed voters for not being more careful."

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