Now we know why

Now we know why the Lima SWAT shooter gunned down an unarmed woman and shot off the fingers of her infant son. "When Sgt. Chavalia heard other officers in the house firing at two pit bull dogs, he mistakenly believed that the figure at the top of the stairs was firing at him, Mr. Kluge said."

This kind of "misunderstanding" on the part of police is inexcusable. If the cops are running around shooting animals and that causes one of their own to start shooting unarmed people, then the cops are squarely to blame for this tragic incident. The actions of the police caused this death. No action of the dead woman caused the police to shoot her. She may have made the wrong choice of boyfriends, but she did nothing to justify her being shot and killed.

SWAT should be disbanded and Chavalia should be sent to prison.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/NEWS02/390248082

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so instead of re-training this vital resource, you'd rather disband this group because allegedly he (Chavalia), one officer who obviously shouldn't have been in this squad, reacted wrongly to the situation?

I just want to make sure I understood correctly.

They are a paramilitary organization that has no place in our civilian society. They are in no way vital to our society.

We don't need no stinkin' SWAT when we have MS-13 to protect us from, umm, from, well, errr FROM THOSE EVIL AMERICAN ANTI-DRUG LAWMEN! VIVA LA CRACK!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-05-gang-grows_x.htm

"In recent years, MS-13's reputation as a particularly brutal gang was cemented by a series of incidents, several of them in Northern Virginia. In one, a former MS-13 member who had become a police informant was fatally stabbed and her head almost severed. In another, MS-13 members used a machete to cut off several fingers of a rival gang member.

The Houston shootout, however, raised questions about whether the gang — whose original members in Los Angeles included people with paramilitary training who fled the civil war in El Salvador during the 1980s — is evolving into an organization that is in their image."

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

MS13 has got nothing to do with the Lima shooting. Why even bring the LA drug gangs up in this context? Also, judging from the amount of drugs they confiscated from the boyfriend, I hardly think he even begins to qualify as a drug lord. He was small time, small potatoes and wasn't worth the effort of a SWAT drug raid.

But getting to your real point about drug gangs, the only reason many of the bad guys exist is because of our troglodytic attitude toward drugs. If drugs were all legalized and controlled by the government, we wouldn't have most of our gangs and drug lords, our burglaries and murders, and we'd have a much better organized way of dealing with addiction... and we'd be eliminating the profit motive that now makes selling this stuff attractive. Bootlegging used to be profitable, too, when it was illegal, but hardly anybody bothers with it now. If all this were legal, there wouldn't be any reason for SWAT.

Until all these "forbidden fruits" are made legal and controlled, we will continue to fill our jails with poor slobs who are either trying to make money or to get high on these substances. What we are doing now is just plain crazy because you can't control something that you have made illegal.

«He was small time, small potatoes and wasn't worth the effort of a SWAT drug raid.»

This is exactly the point. The use of SWAT (note that TPD's version is called "Directed Patrol", or DP) is greatly excessive. They are a blunt instrument used too many times by a police command structure that is largely out of public control.

Disbanding the Lima SWAT team would be foolish. Yet it would be equally foolish to continue using them in the capacity they used. They should be downsized, given a sufficient margin of training over that, and farmed out to other PDs to share costs and give these men and women REAL SWAT work to do.

right about MS-13. It's a spurious argument and has no place here.

I would not disband SWAT teams nor prohibit no-knock warrants any more than I would ban firearms. Now, abuse or misuse of authority is something else entirely. Here's what bothers me about this case:

From The Blade: Officers previously had made several undercover drug buys from Terry, whom they had observed coming and going from the house.

If police wanted to arrest Terry, they could have done so outside the home. Having made undercover drug buys from him, they had enough evidence to arrest and convict Terry. Evidently that wasn't good enough for the jack booted thugs in Lima, Ohio.

This raid and shooting wasn't about the war on drugs, or the arrest of a drug dealer, or any of that. This was motivated by a desire on the part of the police and the prosecutor to humiliate, oppress and terrorize an impoverished African American family. That's abuse of the very worst kind.

Joseph Chavalia belongs in prison for manslaughter. His fellow gang members belong in prison as accessories - every single one of them. The judge who signed the no-knock warrant should be disbarred for life.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

Joseph Chavalia violated the fourth rule of gun safety:

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.

Courtesy of http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

Unlike other laws, the rules of gun safety are absolute. No excuses for violation are accepted, ever.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

drastically on the "disbanding of S.W.A.T." issue.

But I do respect your opinion, thank you.

Why did Lima spend all that money training Sgt Chavalia just so he could made such an amateur error? He effectively freaked out in a combat situation. Given the results were lethal, at the very least, he can't serve in a government-authorized combat unit again.

Pete said SWAT was a "paramilitary organization that has no place in our civilian society" and also now says that MS-13 is an "LA drug gang".

And through example, I proved that Pete is wrong now on TWO counts.

The existence of a known "paramilitary drug cartel" who is capable of military tatics like "The MS-13 suspects swept through the house like a well-trained assault team, using paramilitary tactics including perimeter lookouts, high-powered weaponry (an AK-47 rifle was among the weapons recovered later), and a quick, room-by-room sweep of the house that was notable for its precision and sophistication, Houston police spokesman Alvin Wright says."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-05-gang-grows_x.htm

Yes this "L.A. Drug Gang" is somehow operating in Northern Virginia, Houston, the Mid-Atlantic, Rhode Island and Connecticut. Doesn't sound like a little "L.A. Drug Gang" to knowledgeable people.

And SWAT is "a paramilitary organization that has no place in our civilian society. They are in no way vital to our society."?

Especially in Toledo where it takes 90+ minutes to get a police car to come over and check out a kidnapping, YOU NEED SWAT more than you know.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

If police response gets that terrible, then you need the Second Amendment more than you know, not SWAT.

In fact it was discussed right here about the 93 minutes it took TPS to respond to a call about a kidnapping.

http://swampbubbles.com/bubble/primetime-live-toledo-prostitution-now-na...

In Toledo, it looks like you need to own a gun AND keep SWAT.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

SWAT doesn't do kidnappings unless someone is hostage in a home. SWAT is used 99% of the time to bust druggies and other perpetrators in their homes - no-knock, busting in the doors with guns held to the head. It's a wonder more people aren't killed by these cowboys.

Swat wasn't called.

Toledo Police was. And it took 93 minutes for TPS to respond. At least that is what was on NATION-WIDE TELEVISION.

If only there were documents regarding the Port Authority in that house, an entire team of Toledo lawyers would have shown up to save the kidnapped girl.

So you want to get rid of SWAT because TPS has proven crappy response times? I don't get it.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

I want to get rid of SWAT because it is a quasi-military force that should never be used except in the most unusual circumstances, such as if the earth is hit by an asteroid. For the most part, these cowboys have no justifiable purpose in our society except to menace and intimidate. They are an out-of-control bunch of would-be soldiers who are itching to beat the shit out of people and shoot them. Their equipment comes from the military. They ARE military. Using this shit against MOST civilians is crap.

I knew a guy years ago who had a package of marijuana mailed to him via UPS, except the stoner who mailed it sent it to the wrong address. It finally got delivered to the right address, along with the SWAT crew who then proceeded to terrorize everybody in the house. Guns held to heads, breaking furniture, the whole nine yards. None of these people were a threat to anyone and they all could have been arrested by Barney and the Mayberry police force. It is WRONG to use this kind of excessive force against our citizens (even if they are breaking the law) except in the most unusual and direst of circumstances.

We are becoming a militarized society and most of us just go along with the program. Well, one of these days, BlowMe, you might wake up and discover that YOU are the next target of our government.

should be responding to a kidnapping!

If THE LAW in Toledo doesn't respond to a 911 call, then who should?

Maybe that is why it took 93 minutes to get ANYONE with a badge to show up. They were confused as to who is responsible for answering 911 calls.

Don't blame me,
I didn't vote for a
socialist.

TPS - Toledo Public Schools

TPD - Toledo Police Department

:)

Pete's got a good point about the misuse of SWAT teams. SWAT team members are happiest when they can terrorize unarmed civilians who are unable to fight back. Want proof? Consider the Columbine HS shooting. SWAT surrounded the place and refused to enter, and as a result one person bled to death. Some of the students escaped on their own, only to be roughed up by SWAT team members.

If the police department wants to keep SWAT around, they the individual SWAT team members must be held accountable for their own crimes.

And another thing, when was the last time any Ohio SWAT team was involved in a pitched gun battle with a group of terrorists or gang members?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

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