No New discussion or comments - This religion & racial hating brush I've been painted with blows me away.

I've been told that some people seem to think I have attacked their faith. I don't believe I attacked people's faith - I took issue with, questioned, and challenged those points they made - but I have never attacked their faith or religion.
When somebody posts a topic, I assume they are creating a public forum for discussion. I took issue with some users who didn't agree with me, who seemed to feel they owned the right to judge other people, determine if they are sinners or not (when, even though I am not religious, if I WERE, I'd believe that would be for God to do the judging, not man - isn't God supposed to be the judge of man?).

The topic was NOT about religion - it was about whether people are born gay, and whether it was possible for them to switch to heterosexual. I voiced my own opinions, and questioned whether people are born gay & whether they could switch. I questioned the methods of Exodus, and how any loving parent could send their child there - against their will, to 'earn' that parents love. I did NOT attack anybody's faith or beliefs. I explained what I meant by that, repeatedly.

I realize, that being gay is a sin in the eyes of many religions. So in fairness, I guess I did challenge their religious belief that gayness is a sin. But why are non religous people not allowed to say what they think about it, without being blasted as Christian haters? I enjoy research - I enjoy looking deep into both sides of a debate, I enjoy an intelligent, heated debate - and I can be contrary, and say what's on my mind, even when I know my views will be different than others. I expect that there will be those who disagree with me - they have every right to disagree, to believe what they believe. I guess I'm just just stunned at how some of the users have twisted my words into ugly meanings.

I was told that a comment I'd made seems to have caused people to paint me with a brush of hatred & racism (in regards to 'love the sinner, hate the sin'). I've explained what I meant (twice), and apologised (twice) on sb for my bad choise of words (clubbing). (When I said I wanted to 'club', I did NOT mean it literally - I explained that it was a figure of speech - said in frustration after being accused of hating Christians. I lost my temper & chose my words poorly. I do regret & did apologise for that comment (twice) - it was ill thought out & badly stated. To clarify for the last time - that comment I made was NOT directed at all Christians (or any religion). It WAS directed at the people who claim to be loving, Christian people who say things like that, but they let their disqust & distrust be known in other ways (judging, intolerance, distrust, unacceptance) - and when confronted, they paste on phony smiles & say 'love the sinner, but hate the sin". But they don't mean it. And it makes me want to swat them (not literally) because they are lying, and cloaking their lie in the Bible & their religion. Of course, most Christians are NOT like that - but some are. It is the hate, disquised in the smile, with the phoney words they don't mean - that I detest, that I want to literally "swat" (like a child's fanny - I admit, clubbing was a horrible choise of words & I should know by now, that some posters take things entirely too literal & read all types of horrible meanings into comments where none are intended. It was a stupid figure of speech, that I did not mean in the context it was taken - but geez, the outrage.

I was also told that I ".....offended minorities because you could just as easily have been talking about them by you saying you have close friends who are Christian is like the racist saying he has a few black friends...". WOW. Again, people are reading hidden ugly meanings where none were intended. I only said that I have close friends who are Christians to make the point, that I do not hold ill will to Christians, ONLY because, I got blasted with accusations that I hated Christians (I do not). I do not hold ill will to anybody, of any faith, color, sexual identity - I may disagree with something they said & explain my point, but I am not racist & do not judge people's by their religion or race. It was a point I was trying to make, that some users twisted meaning to & read ugly things into. I did NOT mean it to imply that I had "token" Christian friends, like some people claim to have "token" black friends. I'm stunned at how that got twisted around.

This ugly attitude & word twisting, & anger because I had a different opinion & voiced it - only confirms to me that there are, indeed, some people who call themselves Christians - who paste a smile on their face & say "Love the sinner, hate the sin" , who are lying, that it is a fake smile - fake words, to disquise their disqust of anybody different or anybody who disagrees with them.

I have never had problems with other people's religious faiths & beliefs, with a caveat, that they do not ignore proven scientific evidence & do not present falsehoods as truths, unless they expect to be debated about them. All religions believe they are the only true faith - and perhaps, maybe all of them are to some degree. I know that most Christians (and Buddhists, Muslims, etc.) are good, loving people who believe in God (or their version of God). That said - I would never presume to tell anybody what to believe, or not. I do not have the knowledge, education to do so. But I believe that tolerance needs to go both ways.

It was suggested that I am no longer welcome on sb or tt. I find that interesting because those who were posting anti-smoking ban threads were being told to 'start a group', and yet, religion threads are posted often (but they don't really want open discussions or they get angry). There is a religious group, so why aren't these threads posted there, if they really don't want open discussions, if they only want input from those who agree with them? I think this is pretty pathetic, to paint me with a religion & racial hating brush - which blows me away. But I am not one to hang around where I am not welcome, and that has been made pretty clear to me. No comments are needed, I did not post this to stir the pot. I just wanted to make myself clear, closure if you will.

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To those who have painted me with this 'hate brush', and to the person who informed me I had been painted, I wonder if you've even read ALL the posts in the original thread - if you've even read what I'd posted. I suggest you go back & re-read all the posts, in order.

roost, starling. As far as I am concerned. Now you know how it feels to be painted with the same brush you and others have painted me with.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

On this forum, all Christians are painted as hatful bigoted homophobes, and all athiests are painted as hate filled Christian bashers.

you can choose when to post and when to ignore the whole thread.

... majority with minority, and participation with invitation.

If I said that you're wholly welcome here, Starling, how will you categorize my statement?

At any rate, "so too this shall pass", and the furor dies.

We've a Depression coming up in Toledo, and it behooves us to pay strict attention to what's happening to each other. So let's just continue talking.

But Billy, I have never painted Christians as "hatful bigoted homophobes" - EVER. I"ve always been pretty honest on these boards - was honest about not being raised or being a religious person, but I've never said I was an athiest. Religion is something I've tried to 'get', to learn & there's been many decades trying to find that place that gives so many religious people their faith. I haven't found that place, but just because I don't share all the same beliefs, does not mean that I mock or put down other people's religions or beliefs. We've all bantered about religion before, but it's never escalated like it did with the topic of whether people are born gay, and whether they have the ability to change. My comments were directed to that topic - not at religion or religious beliefs. I also was clear that I understood that many religions believe that homosexuality is a sin, and I never argued their right to believe as they do. My argument was more about whether one person owned the right to judge another person - and whether it was right for a parent to make a child feel damaged if were gay, and demand that child 'switch'. It was not about the Christian belief of gay being a sin.

The comment I had made that seemed to have angered so many, was poorly phrased & said in frustration & anger at those who talked of love, but didn't 'walk the walk' - but people also twisted the meaning of what I'd meant. That comment was NOT directed at all Christians (or any religion) & I was clear about that when I made the comment. I was referring to SOME people who call themselves Christians & throw that word "love" around freely (how they love all God's people; 'love the sinner, hate the sin") - but when it comes to being gay, they paste smiles on their faces & spout those platitudes, but they do NOT live what they say. When I made that comment, I was clear that I was not suggesting it applied to all Christians - only the hypocritical ones. I then presented a question, that I thought would shed light on whether the words they spoke were genuine, or simply empty platitudes - I got no response, but I didn't really need one. I asked the question just to make people think.. But a few posters on sb made the giant leap that I was bashing & persecuting all Christians. I only meant it apply to some. .

littlered fired away at me by saying that when I said I had many Christian friends, it was no better than if I'd said I I had a 'token' black friend, and therefore, I was a racist in addition to a Christian hater. She said that's how everybody here took that comment. That stunned me. The only reason I even said that I had Christian friends, was because a few posters were blasting me & saying I was a Christian hater. If my closest friends are Christians (nothing would sway their faith & I'd never presume to try), then how can I be a Christian hater? THAT was why I said that. Not to show I have a "token" Christian friend (geez). I do not hate Christians - I dislike hypocrites, liers & haters. And one does not have to be a Christian to be one of those things.

I was not debating anybody's religious beliefs or faiths. My comments were directed to the topic at hand - whether people are born gay & whether they are able to switch their sexual orientation. I admit that I don't know enough gays well enough to have answers, but the medical community does not recognise homosexuality as a disease, which suggests the possiblity they are born gay (somebody suggested that gays can choose to not act on their gayness the same as an alcoholic can choose to not drink), It has not been proven, as far as I know - but the medical community seems to lean towards it being what you're born with. Regardless of what any of us believe, the point I was trying (poorly) to make, was that God should be the judge of man

I questioned whether it's "love" when a condition for that love is laid down to be accepted (change sexual orientation, go to Exodus, etc.). I wonder how some of those who are so intolerant of homosexuals will handle it when they discover one of their children is gay. My mother always warned me to be careful about pointing fingers, labeling & judging people, because life has a way of humbleing us. I don't ever recall a time in my life when I ever looked at people, as anything other than people - I never measured them by religion, age, race, gender or sexual orientation. Rather, I look to their character. Some Christian posters on this board were claiming persecution of Christians overall - claimed it to be a history. I can't speak to that, I honestly don't know. But from what's occurred from that topic, my guess is, that it is the Christians that stand in judgement of other people that causes it.

Anybody who knows me would be stunned at the labels I've been given - hater (Christian or any) & racist. That topic fired people up, got people upset, and some of us spoke in anger & frustration at being labeled. At any rate, I do apologise (again) for my poor word choise, and how my meaning got twisted. That comment was aimed at a small segment of people who say one thing & live another, who throw the word 'love' around freely, but that love seems to come with conditions, when somebody is gay. I've been told that I've been "forgiven", but in the same breath, I was told that I'm not worthy as a friend - a very arrogant, self-righteous attitude. Not how I'd expect a Christian to be at all. And that is exactly the narrow, fake-smile, phony platitude mentality my comment was referring to. I will refrain from commenting on topics pertaining to religion. In the future, if people only want a discussion with those who agree with them, then perhaps those topics would be better posted in a group (isn't that what they told us about second hand smoke & smoking ban topics?).

But Billy, I have never painted Christians as "hatful bigoted homophobes" - EVER.

I never said you did - what I DID say was that ALL Christians whomever speak their minds will be labled out here. ALL athiests will be labled as christian bashers as well. Your case in point is a prime example. There are plenty of examples where Christians said absolutely nothing hateful at all, but have been blasted by people unwilling to listen to another opinion besides their own.

Ironically, this sounds just like the Expelled movie - it's not about what you said, it's that you said it at all...

I hate to do this, but as a loyal non-denominational diety worshipper, let me clarify something.

I never said you did - what I DID say was that ALL Christians whomever speak their minds will be labled out here. The problem I have is that Christians, whom I respect very much, have this tendency to shower you with Scripture when one does not agree with "God's view" (ie: transcripts from the Bible) even if a statement has been backed up with some sort of reinforced proof. ALL athiests will be labled as christian bashers as well. I'm labelled as a "Christain Basher®" because I've closed my ears to the preachings of delusional zealots and have called to task said zealots only to be ignored because the facts will expose their fraud. (ie: gene for male-female lust is the same gene for male-male lust, adult-child lust, human-animal lust and alive-dead lust. Made in "His Image", if I recall the comment) Your case in point is a prime example. There are plenty of examples where Christians said absolutely nothing hateful at all (except that homosexuality is a choice), but have been blasted by people unwilling to listen to another opinion besides their own. Blasted how? I'm not seeing the examples you perceive to be available.

See what I mean?

nice shot, man

Its very clear to me that religion shouldn't be discussed.

From Starling: littlered fired away at me by saying that when I said I had many Christian friends, it was no better than if I'd said I I had a 'token' black friend, and therefore, I was a racist in addition to a Christian hater.

Well then, we'll just turn LittleRed over our collective knee and paddle her bottom!

Seriously Starling, pay no attention. The kind of attacks you suffered are fairly typical, having no truth or accuracy to them, and so can be ignored. If you truly feel offended, flag the post and see if the SysOp will intervene.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

billy, l tend to agree with brianinvero, that SOME (not all) people who proclaim to be Christians, tend to throw scriptures out, en masse - whenever anybody disagrees with what they believe is law according to the BIble - even when presented with proven scientific/medical facts - they do this, & call us Christian haters for daring to have a differnce of opinion or belief. What I find interesting, is that I've had some facinating, heated discussions with Christians in my life - many in fact, and they have never resulted in the nastiness that's been shown by the Christian posters on this forum. I have never been called a Christian hater (or even an athiest) in my life, pre-swampbubbles. Some (NOT all) Christians seem to border on zealot. Some simply seem to be close minded to anything that may seem contrary to how they've interpreted the Bible. This is obvious when any discussion of the earth's age is brought up. However, the Bible can be interpreted in many ways - for every scripture sited to prove a point, I'm sure there's one that could dispute it, if interpreted so.

That said, I admit I have conflictions about religion - for many reasons. But I have never said I was an athiest, I am just conflicted and have difficulty blindly accepting words on a page written by man (who the authors of the Bible have also been disputed), I can accept some of it - that the people in the Bible lived. But I can't accept all of it - too many 'holes'. But I do try to understand the beliefs of people - I may not agree with all of them, but that doesnt mean my opinons aren't valid, and aren't allowed to be voiced without being branded 'hater'. Too much like the witch trials here sometimes. I personally do not believe that people choose to be gay - there's too many that say they've always known they were gay. And the Christians who believe it's better for them to suppress their sexual inclination & 'fake' marriage & kids - the all American family so to speak - I find that to be a horrific life sentence to the gay person, as well as their spouse. I don't tell others what to believe, but my kids have always known, that nothng would make me turn away from them - even if they were gay. I haven't had to deal with it in my family - yet. (who's to say what my great grandchildren will be?). But my kids have a few gay friends that are as sweet & loving as can be, and I know that for them, it was never a choise. Rather, being gay made their life more difficult - so who would choose that? But some Christians believe that they should suppress their inborn sexual inclination - to live their life in a lie. That goes against everything I"ve told my kids - to be true to themselves, and to never be ashamed of who they are, just be the best they can be.

There are a few posters who get nasty to Christians - just because it's a button to push. But for the most part, most posters on this forum aren't doing that - they may have a button pushed when false information is put out (ignoring proven scientific facts to make it 'fit' with their beliefs) . But that is not attacking people's faith. It is debating or arguing their point of view, a difference of opinion. On the other hand, there's a few Christian posters on this forum who are too quick to call people Christian haters & claim persecution (puleeez) if anybody disagrees with them. If there's anybody who does not stand & cheer at what that Christian poster said, or at least mildly agree with them, tlhey claim persecution. Personally, I think "persecution" is a pretty strong word, and I highly doubt Christians are persecuted in this country for their religious beliefs - as long as those beliefs do not stomp on the laws of the country. What amazes me, is that these Christians who say they are insulted by those who disagree with them about whether people are born gay, don't seem to see that they have insulted homosexuals by their words. There are religions that subscribe to the BIble that do not claim homosexuals are doomed to hell, that they can just choose to not be gay. Not all religions subscribe to the Bible. Again, Christians comprise about 30 percent of the world population. I'm not saying Christians aren't 'right or wrong' - I am saying that there are many beliefs, all of which think theirs is the only true one. To be honest, one of the biggest reasons for my 'conflictions' about religion in general, are those zeolots that double-talk, who throw scripture out rather than answer in their own words, and that holier-than-thou, self-righteous attitude that just seems to me, should be so NOT what God would want man to be. Smug & arrogant.

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