'Stones and bones ', 15 reasons to take Genesis as history

This little book overthrew 40 years of evolutionary indoctrination for me." -- Miles Cooper, PhD, MSc (immunology, molecular biology).

Third Edition - November 2007

By Carl Wieland

This booklet offers brief but satisfying answers to the major categories of evidence in the creation and evolution debate. You'll find answers to questions such as,
What happened to the dinosaurs?
Does radiometric dating really prove the earth is millions of years old?
Do fossils show evolution?
Why isn't there any evidence from evolutionists to show life forming itself from non-life?
...and many other topics in this brief and easy-to-read booklet.

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Your little book is simply propaganda & proves nothing. It is simply the attempt of Creationists to try to dispute scientific facts. There's too much proven facts on fossils, dinosaur bones, earth age, etc. & creationists can't make it 'mesh' with their version of 'facts'. So they write a book & build a museum. Keep reading - the last paragraph is a copy & paste from somebody who lives in the same town as the Creationism Museum. Read what they say about it - it is making our country a laughing stock to the rest of the world. (Christians only make up about 33 percent of the world's religions.)

The Bible claims the earth is 6,000 years old. Scientists say all the dinosaurs died out by about 65 million years ago. Those evil atheist evolutionists are attacking Christianity, so True Christians must use their heavy artillery, otherwise known as Lying For Jesus. Creationists must not only deny the science of evolution, they must also deny physics, chemistry, geology, as well as most of the rest of biology.(Isn't it against the Bible to lie? )

To reduce the Bible, one of the oldest collections of writings known, with huge amounts of information about early historical times, into a dumb-and dumber joke book. And why? So they can make idiots of themselves trying to disprove rock-solid science. Let's call it what is is - choose your favourite: masquerade, farse, fable, fiction, lie.. whatever. Anything but -science.
For the sake of argument that Noah did indeed load all the animals onto the ark - wouldn't it have been a monumental task to load the dinosaurs? On a wooden ark that wasn't all that large? Many were meat eaters, and their weight alone would have sunk the ark (and they wouldn't have fit anyway).

I haven't read this book yet, but perhaps Creationists will attempt to explain away the dinosaurs because maybe Noah simply didn't want to load those ferocious beasts. (This is a huge & laughable leap.) Bishop had attempted to suggest that there were dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible (as well as the prediction of the television set) & he posted scriptures to 'prove it'. I read those scriptures, as well as the explanations given by theologiests - and they were referring to hippopontamus & crocodiles, not dinosaurs. Anyway - take a look at the photo below, at the size of the T.Rex teeth & ask yourself if Noah could have loaded him or any dinosaurs onto the ark.

The T. rex had six-inch-long teeth that were sunk only about one inch into the jaw.
As the photo on this page shows:

But shucks, we're still left with the scientific proof that the universe is millions of years old, and the earth is tens of thousands (or millions) of years old, and the dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago. Prehistoric man wasn't around while the dinosaurs were either - & dispite what the Creationism museum depicts, they were not around the same time as Adam & Eve.

From a resident in the Creationism Museum town -
As a resident of Petersburg (yes, THAT Petersburg) I wish to express my shame that Ken's circus has pitched its tent in my beautiful state, and to give you some good local scoop from ground zero.

There is a large backstory about building this circus tent (I can't bring myself to validate it by calling it a m-seum). What REALLY drives Ken Ham is money - selling books and DVDs. Look at the building permit - this place is a freaking book distribution center! Adding a religious m-seum to his place of business allowed him to cry "religious persecution" when the zoning commission denied his application to build his book operation in un undeveloped area with an inadequate infrastructure. He successfully bullied the local politicians into allowing it. I am so ashamed, I wish I could move.

over 50 Ohio teaching proffessors at Ohio Universities endorsed the teaching of ID in Ohio schools. The atheist Darwin view will not stand up under open competition with other views

mailman - that is bullshit. It makes no difference if Mr. Ham is wealthy - or not. It is a sham, a lie, that he sells tickets to. You & bishop need to do your homework & stop spoonfeeding this nonsense to people. IF you can say with a straight face & actually believe that dinosaurs lived on Earth at the same time as Adam & Eve (or even pre-historic man, who also did NOT co-exist with the dinosaurs); IF you actually believe that carbon dating is a hoax produced by athiests to further it's cause & can just dismiss scientific evidence - then you are too far gone already; & are just hoping that this silly museum will add weight to dummied up religious timelines, so it makes 'sense' to you. IF you honestly believe that Mr. Ham is more 'right' than all the scientists, geologists, paleontologists, biologists who have dated fossils, bones, the earth itself - IF you honestly believe that Sue (dinosaur skeleten) and the Iceman was a made-up hoax (see links below), you're too far gone to be able to even discuss this on any level.

Just the existence of Sue & Ötzi the Iceman destroys Mr.Ham's claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old, as well as the claim that dinosaurs lived during Biblical times. Just the fact that this "museum" uses dioramas that depict pre-historic children during Biblical times is laughable. Pre-historic man pre-dates Biblical times by tens of thousands of years. Ötzi the Iceman is proof that man walked the earth & wore clothes, used tools & weapons, knew something about medicine, etc. - much longer ago than the 6,000 Earth age that this creation museum claims is true.

Ötzi the Iceman

Born fl. c.3300 BC
near the present village of Feldthurns (Velturno), north of Bolzano, Italy
Died fl. c.3300 BC (aged about 45)
Schnalstal glacier, Ötztal Alps, near Hauslabjoch on the border between Austria and Italy
Cause of death Victim of a crime or ritual sacrifice
Other names Frozen Fritz; Similaun Man
Height 1.65 m (5.4 ft)
Weight 50 kg (110 lb/7.9 st)
Known for Oldest natural mummy of a Chalcolithic (Copper Age) European man
Website South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology
Ötzi the Iceman (pronounced [ˈœtsi] (help·info)), Frozen Fritz, and Similaun Man are modern nicknames of a well-preserved natural mummy of a man from about 3300 BC (53 centuries ago),[1] found in 1991 in the Schnalstal glacier in the Ötztal Alps, near Hauslabjoch on the border between Austria and Italy. The nickname comes from Ötztal, the region in which he was discovered. He is Europe's oldest natural human mummy, and has offered an unprecedented view of Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Europeans.[citation needed]

Ötzi the Iceman while still frozen in the glacier, photographed by Helmut Simon upon the discovery of the body in September 1991.
Another early photograph of the body prior to its removal from the ice.Ötzi was found by two German tourists from Nuremberg, Helmut and Erika Simon, on 19 September 1991. The body was at first thought to be a modern corpse, like several others which had been recently found in the region. Lying on its front and frozen in ice below the torso, it was crudely removed from the glacier by the Austrian authorities using a small jackhammer (which punctured the hip of the body) and ice-axes using non-archaeological methods. In addition, before the body was removed from the ice, people were allowed to see it, and some took portions of the clothing and tools as souvenirs. The body was then taken to a morgue in Innsbruck, where its true age was subsequently ascertained. However, during a press conference that was held, people were allowed to take photographs and touch the body. As a result of this, fungus began to grow on the Iceman's skin.[citation needed]

Subsequent surveys in October 1991 showed that the body had been located 92.56 meters inside Italian territory ( 46°46′44″N, 10°50′23″E).[2] Since 1998 it has been on display at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, Italy.

Scientific analyses of Ötzi
The body has been extensively examined, measured, X-rayed, and dated. Tissues and intestinal contents have been examined microscopically, as have the items found with the body. In August 2004, frozen bodies of three Austro-Hungarian soldiers killed during the Battle of San Matteo (1918) were found on the mountain of San Matteo in the Trentino region of Italy.[3] One body was sent to a museum in the hope that research on how the environment affected its preservation will help to find out about Ötzi's past and future evolution.

Ötzi the Iceman, now housed at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, Italy.
The body
By current estimates, at the time of his death Ötzi was approximately 1.65 m (5 ft 5 in) tall,[4] weighed about 50 kg (110 lb/7.9 st)[5] and was about 45 years of age.[4] When his body was found, it weighed 38 kg (84 lb/6.0 st).[4] Because the body was covered in ice shortly after his death, it only partially deteriorated. Analysis of pollen and dust grains and the isotopic composition of his tooth enamel indicate that he spent his childhood near the present village of Feldthurns (Velturno), north of Bolzano, but later went to live in valleys about 50 km further north.[6] Analysis by Franco Rollo's group at the University of Camerino has shown that Otzi's mitochondrial DNA belongs to the K1 subcluster of the mitochondrial haplogroup K, but that it cannot be categorized into any of the three modern branches of that subcluster.

Analysis of Ötzi's intestinal contents showed two meals (the last one about eight hours before his death), one of chamois meat, the other of red deer meat. Both were eaten with some grain as well as some roots and fruits. The grain from both meals was a highly processed einkorn wheat bran, quite possibly eaten in the form of bread. There were also a few kernels of sloes (small plum-like fruits of the blackthorn tree). Hair analysis was used to examine his diet from several months before.

Pollen in the first meal showed that it had been consumed in a mid-altitude conifer forest, and other pollens indicated the presence of wheat and legumes, which may have been domesticated crops. Also, pollen grains of hop-hornbeam were discovered. The pollen was very well preserved, with even the cells inside still intact, indicating that it had been fresh (a few hours old) at the time of Ötzi's death, which places the event in the spring. Interestingly, einkorn wheat is harvested in the late summer, and sloes in the autumn; these must have been stored since the year before.

High levels of both copper particles and arsenic were found in Ötzi's hair. This, along with Ötzi's copper axe which is 99.7% pure copper, has led scientists to speculate that Ötzi was involved in copper smelting.[7]

By examining the proportions of Ötzi's tibia, femur and pelvis, Christopher Ruff has determined that Ötzi's lifestyle included long walks over hilly terrain. This degree of mobility is not characteristic of other Copper Age Europeans. Ruff proposes that this may indicate Ötzi was a high-altitude shepherd.[8]

He apparently had whipworm (Trichuris trichiura), an intestinal parasite. During CT scans, it was observed that three or four of his right ribs had been squashed when he had been lying face down after death, or where the ice had crushed his body. Also, it was found that his epidermis, the outer skin layer, was missing, a natural process from his mummification in ice.[5]

He had approximately 57 carbon tattoos consisting of simple dots and lines on his lower spine, behind his left knee, and on his right ankle. Using X-rays, it was determined that the Iceman may have had arthritis in these joints. Some scientists suggest that the designs might have been used to mark the passage from youth to manhood,[citation needed] or it has been speculated that they may be related to acupuncture.[citation needed]

Clothes and shoes
Ötzi with some of the equipment found with him.
Ötzi's flint knife and its sheath.Ötzi's clothes were quite sophisticated. He wore a cloak made of woven grass and a vest, a belt, a pair of leggings, a loincloth and shoes, all made of leather. He also wore a bearskin cap with a leather chin strap. The shoes were waterproof and wide, seemingly designed for walking across the snow; they were constructed using bearskin for the soles, deer hide for top panels, and a netting made of tree bark. Soft grass went around the foot and in the shoe and functioned like warm socks. The vest, belt, leggings, and loincloth were constructed of vertical strips of leather sewn together with sinew. His belt had a pouch sewn to it that contained a cache of useful items: a scraper, drill, flint flake, bone arrow, and a dried fungus to be used as tinder.

The shoes have since been reproduced by experts, and found to constitute such excellent footwear that there are plans for commercial production.[9] However, a more recent hypothesis by British archaeologist Jacqui Wood says that Ötzi's "shoes" were actually the upper part of snowshoes. According to this theory, the item currently interpreted as part of a backpack is actually the wood frame and netting of one snowshoe and animal hide to cover the torso.[citation needed]

Other equipment
Other items found with the Iceman were a copper axe with a yew handle, a flint knife with an ash handle, a quiver of 14 bone-tipped arrows with viburnum and dogwood shafts and flint heads (two arrows were finished, twelve were not), and an unfinished yew longbow that was 1.82 m (72 in) tall.[10] Also found were berries and two birch bark baskets.

Among Ötzi's possessions were two species of polypore mushrooms with leather strings through them. One of these, the birch fungus, is known to have antibacterial properties, and was likely used for medicinal purposes. The other was a type of tinder fungus, included with part of what appeared to be a complex firestarting kit. The kit featured pieces of over a dozen different plants, in addition to flint and pyrite for creating sparks.

Cause of death
The Ötzi memorial on the Similaun mountain, where Ötzi the Iceman was found, in the Ötztal Alps.Initially it had been believed that Ötzi died from exposure during a winter storm. Later it was speculated that Ötzi had been a victim of a ritual sacrifice, perhaps for being a chieftain.[11][12] This explanation was inspired by theories previously advanced for the first millennium B.C. bodies recovered from peat bogs, such as the Tollund Man and the Lindow Man.[12] In 2001 X-rays and a CT scan revealed that Ötzi had an arrowhead lodged in one shoulder when he died,[13] and a matching small tear on his coat.[14] The discovery of the arrowhead prompted researchers to theorize Ötzi died of blood loss from the wound, which would likely have been fatal even if modern medical techniques had been available.[15] Further research found that the arrow's shaft had been removed prior to death, and close examination of the body found bruises and cuts to the hands, wrists and chest and cerebral trauma indicative of a blow to the head. One of the cuts was to the base of his thumb that reached down to the bone but had not had time to heal before his death. Currently it is believed that death was caused by a blow to the head, though researchers are unsure if this was due to a fall, or from being struck with a rock by another person.[16] DNA analysis revealed traces of blood from four other people on his gear: one from his knife, two from the same arrowhead, and a fourth from his coat. Interpretations of the findings were that Ötzi killed two individuals with the same arrow, and was able to retrieve it on both occasions, and the blood on his coat was from a wounded comrade he may have carried over his back.[14] Ötzi's unnatural posture in death (frozen body, face down, left arm bent across the chest) suggests that theory of a solitary death from blood loss, hunger, cold and weakness is untenable. Rather, before death occurred and rigor mortis set in, the Iceman was turned on to his stomach in the effort to remove the arrow shaft.[17]

The DNA evidence suggests that he was assisted by companions who were also wounded; pollen and food analysis suggests that he was out of his home territory. The copper axe could not have been made by him alone. It would have required a concerted group tribal effort to mine, smelt and cast the copper axe head. This may indicate that Ötzi was actually part of an armed raiding party involved in a skirmish, perhaps with a neighboring tribe, and this skirmish had gone badly. It may also indicate that he was ambushed or attacked by a rival tribe's raiding party on his way to deliver the axe. When the Iceman's mitochondrial DNA was analyzed by Franco Rollo and his colleagues, it was discovered that he had genetic markers associated with reduced fertility. It has been speculated that this may have affected his social acceptance.
SUE - T-Rex
Sue's Significance
The first T. rex specimen was found in 1900. Since then, only seven skeletons that are more than half complete have been discovered. Of these, Sue is the largest, most complete, and best preserved T. rex ever found.
Most of Sue’s bones are in excellent condition and have a high degree of surface detail. Sixty-seven million years after her death, it is still possible to see fine details showing where muscles, tendons, and other soft tissues rested against or attached to the bone.

Sue’s completeness, combined with the exquisite preservation of the bones, makes her an invaluable scientific resource, permitting highly detailed study of T. rex anatomy. (© The Field Museum GEO86166_3c)

Sue's Vital Statistics
Scientific name: Tyrannosaurus rex (From the Greek and Latin for "tyrant lizard king")
Age: Late Cretaceous Period 67 million years
Range: Western North America
Discovered: August 12, 1990, on the Cheyenne River Sioux Indian Reservation near Faith, South Dakota, by fossil hunter Sue Hendrickson
Length: 42 feet (12.8 meters)
Height at hips: 13 feet (4.0 meters)
Estimated live weight: 7 tons (6.4 metric tons)
Weight of skull: 600 pounds (272 kg)
Length of skull: 5 feet (1.5 meters)
Size of brain cavity: Just big enough to hold a quart of milk
Number of teeth: 58
Length of teeth: 7 1/2 to 12 inches (19.05 to 30.5 centimeters)
Diet: Meat
Sex: Unknown
Comparative table of Homo species
view • talk • editComparative table of Homo species Species Lived when (MYA) Lived where Adult length (m) Adult mass (kg) Brain volume (cm³) Fossil record Discovery / publication of name
H. habilis 2.5–1.5 Africa 1.0–1.5 30–55 660[27] many 1960/1964
H. rudolfensis 1.9 Kenya 1 skull 1972/1986
H. georgicus 1.8–1.6 Georgia 600 few 1999/2002
H. ergaster 1.9–1.25 E. and S. Africa 1.9 700–850 many 1975
H. erectus 2 – 0.03 [27] Africa, Eurasia (Java, China, Caucasus) 1.8 60 850(early) – 1100(late)[27] many 1891/1892
H. cepranensis 0.8? Italy 1000 1 skull cap 1994/2003
H. antecessor 0.8–0.35 Spain, England 1.75 90 1000 3 sites 1997
H. heidelbergensis 0.6–0.25 Europe, Africa, China 1.8 60 1100–1400 many 1908
H. neanderthalensis 0.3–0.27 Europe, W. Asia 1.6 55–70 (heavily built) 1200–1700 many (1829)/1864
H. rhodesiensis 0.3–0.12 Zambia 1300 very few 1921
H. sapiens 0.25–present worldwide 1.4–1.9 55–80 1000–1850 still living —/1758
H. sapiens idaltu 0.16–0.15 Ethiopia 1450 3 craniums 1997/2003
H. floresiensis 0.10–0.012 Indonesia 1.0 25 400 7 individuals 2003/2004

"Modern man" debate and the Great Leap Forward
Until about 50,000–40,000 years ago the use of stone tools seems to have progressed stepwise: each phase (habilis, ergaster, neanderthal) started at a higher level than the previous one, but once that phase had started further development was slow. In other words, one might call these Homo species culturally conservative. After 50,000 BP, what Jared Diamond, author of The Third Chimpanzee, and other anthropologists characterize as a "Great Leap Forward," human culture apparently started to change at much greater speed: "modern" humans started to bury their dead carefully, made clothing out of hides, developed sophisticated hunting techniques (such as pitfall traps, or driving animals to fall off cliffs), and made cave paintings.[30] This speed-up of cultural change seems connected with the arrival of behaviorally modern humans, Homo sapiens. As human culture advanced, different populations of humans began to create novelty in existing technologies. Artifacts such as fish hooks, buttons and bone needles begin to show signs of variation among different populations of humans, something that had not been seen in human cultures prior to 50,000 BP. Typically, neanderthalensis populations are found with technology similar to other contemporary neanderthalensis populations.

Theoretically, modern human behavior is taken to include four ingredient capabilities: abstract thinking (concepts free from specific examples), planning (taking steps to achieve a further goal), innovation (finding new solutions), and symbolic behaviour (such as images, or rituals). Among concrete examples of modern human behaviour, anthropologists include specialization of tools, use of jewelry and images (such as cave drawings), organization of living space, rituals (for example, burials with grave gifts), specialized hunting techniques, exploration of less hospitable geographical areas, and barter trade networks. Debate continues whether there was indeed a "revolution" leading to modern humans ("the big bang of human consciousness"), or a more gradual evolution.

Starling: You seem to have a lot of explanation for why we are wrong. Can you back up your own belief (with anything other than what you can spew back out from other sources)?

What is your explanation for the logically necessary first cause of existence? It can't be "the big bang," because there had to be material with which a bang can be made. So where was the origin of that material? Evolutionary theory necessitates that one believes and accepts that the material from which the bang orginated just existed out of nowhere. This, however, is not logically possible. History has a starting point, it has to.

(If you need some info on what a first cause is or why it is necessary, you'd do well to read about Rene Descartes and his contemporaries (better yet, read his actual treatises) and brush up on that, but the philosophical community concurs that a first cause is necessary and there is much debate still today whether that first cause is necessarily God or not).

There is a tide in the affairs of men...

No Christians that I know of are going to spend very much time to post here knowing that the name calling and such as is already happening will be the result.

Starling has no intention of having an honest debate and in my opinion, is posting here simply to shame people and try to destroy their faith.

On another thread she called us back stabbing, God-Nazzi's and said she wants to club us in the head. Twice.

You labeled this thread for evangelicals. Her conduct is an absolute antithesis of evangelical behavior.

But I thought I'd just state that b/c you aren't getting alot of activity on this group. Only a masochist would have a discussion with Starling if they are a Christian. She has rejected testimony and has done nothing but try to destroy people's faith.

I know that because of Starling I have been upset enough that I am just going to quit coming to the site.

So another poster said that after she was treated like some kind of nut because of the smoking issue and how there is such harsh feelings toward smokers - the fact that she turns around and so much nastier to Christians when we're experiencing the same kind of treatment just made me terribly upset.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

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