It'll be business as usual

""It'll be business as usual and we will say thank you to the voters who
know that we have been spending their money wisely," Mr. Sobczak said."

No votes yet

Business as usual is exactly right.....

It's quotes like that which will lead me to vote with me feet.

This sort of statement from a Union guy is exactly why the 40+ % of people voted no. Mr. Sobczak, in this quote esentially states that the citizens who are angry with how the policy makers are spending and how both the Administration and Council have some splainin to do, do not count. Only the people who voted for the tax are represented by these bodys. Ta hell with the concerns and voices against.

Well, I've got news for the Sobczaks of the world, we who feel the ways and means of this City are faulty are not going to shrink away into the potholes. Just becasue the tax(s) passed doesn't mean we're giving you policy makers a pass. If anything, this will bring the budget and the City far more civil intervention than in years past.

The thing about a renovational change is that it takes time, perserverence and inginuity(sp). The passage of the 3/4 is not a "win" for the city, it's a continuation of loss based on poor management and faulty reasoning.

"The passage of the 3/4 is not a "win" for the city, it's a continuation of loss based on poor management and faulty reasoning."

That wins as the best comment for today. No, I won't shrink away. It actually encourages me to do more now and be more involved.

i was trying to decide what would be a better use of my tax money burning it, or letting the city and school district do it for me. if i burned it i would have the satisfaction of knowing it didn't go in the hands of greedy union yahoos, that's just going to ask for more and give me the same shitty service.

i thank God that we are blessed to send our kids to a private school, otherwise we would pack up and move out of the city into possibly a smaller house in the burbs. that is so appealing right now. too bad i couldn't get what i paid for out of my house to sell it. i'm stuck here in toledo. i just can't wait to see what business as usual is going to do for the city, oh yeah more of the same.

anyone heard what the city/ carty is being sued for today, seems like there is something new every day? i just love reading about all the lawsuits we have to pay for because of him. yet another cost saving idea, get rid of carty!!!!!

i think i'm going to start a levy campaign for myself, seems like the union voters will vote for ANYTHING their union tells them to. i just need to figure out how to appeal to them since i am not of that mindset. i've seen them go to the polls with the card the union sent them telling them who to vote for, like they are puppets.

greedy union yahoos?

Funny, I don't think my best friend who has to put on a bullet proof jacket, carry a gun and patrol the streets every day as a "greed union yahoo". He does for around $40k per year. I don't think is wife is a "greedy union yahoo" either for teaching some of the poorest kids in the intercity for $35k per year. These are both college educated people and hardly living the life of luxury.

The stories they share about the kids and people they encounter is just heart breaking. My cop friend just the other day had to wrestle a guy twice his size when the guy went for my friends gun. You couldn't pay me enough to do the job.

These people are hardly "greedy union yahoos".

If police and fire are the focus of the 3/4% tax renewal, why isn't the ENTIRE tax given to them? No, where it stands is the MAJORITY of the tax goes into the General Fund and the Capital Improvements Fund, not police and fire. So, I'd vote for the tax, if it was a 1/3% tax, as that was the share given to the police and fire.

You made three errors.

First, your numbers are off. A LOT. The cops and teachers have about the same average income -- $48K. Teachers START at $32K, and rise to over $60K. Thanks for your propaganda.

Second, the "greed" element comes into play when they demand pay and benefits that cannot be sustained on a shrinking tax base which also includes people have haven't seen pay or benefit increases in years, and too many of those have in fact LOST ground due to layoffs, wage cuts, and wholesale cancellation of benefits. Unions have lost their way, by enforcing the creation of a "worker elite".

Third, it doesn't matter what YOU think is sufficient pay for the job if YOU were doing it. What YOU have to consider is that your vote is for spending OUR money, and how OUR money fulfills our TRUE needs. Since taxation is basically having 51 people rob 49 others, such decisions should be made with such robbery in mind. The 3/4% tax is unnecessary since Toledo was perfectly livable before 1982, and the right to keep and bear arms was never revoked. The wider view should have prevailed and the robbery should have stopped.

(That's all why a limited government solves a lot of problems, and puts the remaining problems in the hands of the people themselves, who should have always taken responsibility for such problems.)

First - neither of my friends make $48K per year. Not even close. Second - those teachers who are making $60K per year, have a decade + experience and a master degree. Having the same in most industries/businesses would earn you considerably more then $60K.

And yes, the people who operate above the street level cops are greedy union yahoo's. Their member's are just puppets. As a poll worker in the past, I've seen people come in with the Blade in their hand voting right from the newspaper all the way down to people coming in with their union cards telling them which way to vote. People who CANNOT inform themselves and take the time to do research on issue's and candidates and need a card or newspaper to vote ARE MINDLESS PUPPETS. I'd guess maybe only 5% of the YES votes for the tax renewal are people who actually took the time to inform themselves, but still concluded YES, and that's completely fine with me because at least they educated themselves.

Good deal of assumptions here and there.


They are mindliess puppets because they read a newspaper?

Do we know that is the only source of information they used?


Do we know that they voted or thought the way they did because of a card?


The ballots are secret.


"As a poll worker in the past, I've seen people come in with the Blade
in their hand voting right from the newspaper all the way down to
people coming in with their union cards telling them which way to vote."


People also claim that they will vote for one and then get in the booth or station and they vote for someone else.


Here we were treated to the same old, same old, vote this way or else, the Budgetary Scissors will be let loose.


I do not know what the percentages were last year whern the temp tax was voted back in, but the problem rests with the leadership to make the changes that need to be made.

On the other side of the negotiating table is management.
Management runs the business, the workers perform the work. The workers formed an association, to deal with the management.
Now, the parties come to the table at contract time.
They both have agendas.
They both want this or that, cannot have all.
So, when there are two parties involved and the one who is in charge of the financial side, and that is not the workers, do the same, remember it's business as usual, and does not take the steps to properly manage the company, city, county, what ever, the blame falls on the workers for getting what they wanted?
The people on the other side of the table need to stop with business as usual and do something different.
As Quigley has pointed out, less people working, less people in the city, equals less income tax to rely on but yet the management keeps doing the same thing for years and years and years.
It's not greed, it is typical of people we do not want to give what we have, but what both parties fail to understand that when the balance sheet is going more and more negative, which it will with more and more job losses and more and more foreclosures and less and less revenue from the income tax, there will be less for all.
But the Council President sees, business as usual.

The budget and expenditures?


If we remember from last year, after the budget task force meetings and brain storming sessions there were funds that were suddenly found and spending on side line issues took place.


Can we expect more window dressing and spending on fluff, even though we have been told that cuts might have to be, will be made, could be made, etc.

I sure hope your not trying to make sense of a union's purpose somewhere in there. :).

I was a Recording Secretary in a Papermakers Local, the mill and the Local are both history.


Times were good we could bargain for good pay and good bene's. It was hard work and the paper industry is not a safe place to work in, people lost limbs and some even died, so the people got together and formed locals as permitted by law.


There came a time, when a customer called and said the party was over and they were switching to plastic. The loss was 25% of our total product and in small tonnage per order mill, 25% was a big gap to fill.


We were presented in a bargaining session a 25% pay cut, take it or the mill closes.


Of course we took it and through meetings and working together we were able to regain some of the wage loss. But through economic condition, loss of product to the plastic industry, the mill owners moved the product to Canada, which triggered retraining bene's under NAFTA.


Management has to make the decisions and if management decides to keep with the business as usual attitude, who is to blame? The workers or Management.


Major and lesser cities have stepped up and made tough decisions and taken steps to stop the fiscal downward spiral, can we expect the same here?


The Administration runs the city, the Administration is responsible for the decisions that are made. The workers, work.

I agree, that Police Officers (on the street) and Firefighters who actually fight fire are well worth the compensation they get and in some cases more. In an abstract way, the unions that rep these safety forces are to blame for the gimme state of things at the negotiation table. Who can actually find fault in an individual or group that gets a great deal? We all do that from shopping to relationships.

One cannot say that just because 2 people work for the same unit say 1 on the street and 1 pushing papers, are entitled to the same compensation rate. That's obsurd. The person pushing papers is at risk for a paper cut, the person on the street in a vest is a "life's on the line" worker. The "Brotherhood" mentality of the safety job force cannot be extended in times of economic struggle to all just becasue they have a uniform or badge. This is where the City drops the ball at the negotiation table, every time.
IMO, once a person is no longer willing or able to perform street duty, their compensation package should change to reflect that status. I say this as a person who has 4 family members that are or were Police officers, here in Toledo and in other cities/states. Logic says that the Street Officers and the Active Firefighters are at the highest risk and therefore should be compensated at the highest rate. Any Civilian with computer skills can do the desk jockey stuff and can be compensated less as it's a virtually no risk job.

The Unions are a problem here as they feel that seniority/position should be/ is the only determining factor(s) in compensation and the whole Brotherhood thing. Becasue of the Union contract(s), we the sheeple pay $100 per city car for an oil change that can be had anywhere in town for $30. This is a lot like the the Fed's $500 toilet seat. Simple math says you can get 3 cop car's oil changed at Jiffy Lube for the price of 1 car in the City garage. If say, the City were to sign a yearly contract with one of these providers, oil changes could likely be had for closer to $20 a car, or 5-1 over the City garage.

This 1 simple thing would save a lot of money for the City along with keeping Toledo business alive. You'd see some serious competition from vendors if the bidding were to be opened up. This tactic can and should be utilized for many of the services that are currently costing the city a fortune.

This along with negotiating on health care costs with all city employees that are not either a street cop or active fierfighter (80/20 or even 90/10 plans) would put us well on the way to fiscal responsibility and provide a buffer between tax increases.

Even an Appeals Court in Ohio, highlights the problem in Toledo;


"If the city adhered to its own argument regarding the strict language of the pickup provision, it would have ceased picking up the employees' contributions after 1999, instead of continuing to pick up 100 percent of the employees' contributions through 2005."


And who was the Mayor in 1999?

Mayor Carlton S. Finkbeiner

To try and over turn an arbitrators finding of a contract provision that is now coming back and biting us in the wallets and pocketbooks and yet the same person who had to sign off on the agreement failed to act then to curtail spending, all the while knowing but not recognizing the downward spiral.


Just pass the temp tax and keep business as usual.

Chad, I have a question for you, what exactly is the purpose of the city garage? Is it simply where the police cars are serviced and what-not? Becasue if thats the case then i think, your idea of using Jiffy Lube is two-fold, it would be putting money in the economy as well as saving the tax-payers some money.

Is that the City Garage services the City fleet ops. This would be all of the veicles in the service of the city from the plows to the crusiers to the administrative staff.
2008 ops budget for Finkbeiner Administration:
"• Municipal Garage Costs were assumed to rise by 7.4% in 2008,
due to significant increases in fuel, parts, and labor. It is also
the result of a review by Fleet Operations that resulted in a
better matching of cost and benefit of the program."
That's from King Carty's

Further reading of the 2008 Budget lists the Municipal garage at $11,060,115.64

11 million bucks in service(oil changes, repairs etc)
That's a lot fo money in "Garage Services" for a fleet that for the most part looks like junk yard cars.

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