Ohio job losses worst since WWII, report says

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The more than 209,000 non-farm jobs Ohio lost from 2000 to 2007 comprised the largest proportionate decline in employment since the end of the Great Depression, a national manufacturing trade group said Wednesday....[more]

Damn that Carty. But as Fred would say, at least we're exporting more corn to Mexico!

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Damn that Carty. But as Fred would say, at least we're exporting more corn to Mexico!

I was unaware that Carty was somehow responsible for all of Ohio between 2000-2007. Michican lost 431,000 jobs. Was that his fault also?

Hey, I've got an idea! Let's ban some more stuff that will make it even harder for Ohio businesses and put more people out of work. We've already done that to restaurants and bars. How about the fast food industry and, maybe, convenience stores? Come on, let's REALLY make it inhospitable to do business here.

I wish some politician would come up with a really original idea and make this area the Sin City of the north. Open gambling, hootchie-cootchie girls, smoking, and adult good times that would draw people from all over. It works in Las Vegas. We don't seem to have anything else going for us.

But the people here are too conservative and the local newspaper too hostile for such an outlandish idea. Ah, well, we'll just slowly wither away and remember what a bustling city we once were forty years ago.

Craig--I was kidding

Sorry. I guess I don't find the loss of over 600,000 jobs very amusing. But your "joke" articulates what I read here and on other sites. Alot of people seem to think that the problems Toledo faces are somehow unique to Toledo and all the fault of the city administration, taxes, and, of course, unions. Could some things be done better? Yes, but the fact is, "free trade" agreements combined with states, counties and cities stealing business from one another through the use of tax abatements has gutted local economies while corporations laugh all the way to the bank. Throw in King George's federal tax cuts and royalty relief for multi-billion dollar oil companies and local resources get stretched to the breaking point. And, with the mortgage debacle, the future doesn't look very bright, either. Again, I apologize, I just don't find much to chuckle about these days.

You have got to be kidding me!! You sound like a Protectionist!! So if a local city or state can't compete, your answer is to subsidize them.
Here's a question for you, why does Toledo have more public employees now than when it had much larger populations?

... Craig didn't mention subsidies except to critique their use (tax abatements, etc.). He certainly didn't advocate them.

As for the public-employees issue, Toledo's government is simply out of control, and that's also a natural consequence of the flight of wealth and wealthier folks. What you end up with is over-worked poor people, and they don't start participating in politics at all until they're STARVING. Hence, Toledo's parasite population (i.e. city workers) could ONLY grow.

How do local cities and/or states "compete" against each other?

What do you think makes Toledo less competitive?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. You said this:

So if a local city or state can't compete, your answer is to subsidize them.

So I'm just trying to determine how local and state governments are competing against each other.

Local and state governments compete against each other for business through the use of tax abatements, land grants, and local infrastucture construction. Walmart does it all the time. When their tax benefits end for a store in one town, they move to the next town over for an even sweeter deal. And since they usually lease the building from the city their in, the abandoned building sits vacant.

Tax break awarded to Ann Arbor company

 

"One of the things we told the city council is if there is ever a blip
in hiring, the venture capitalists will say 'Are you sure you don't
want to hire in Lexington? There's a lot of good people in Lexington.'
And we say we think we can do OK here," said Harry Wan, Arbor Network's
vice president of engineering. "These tax credits can help us continue
to do that."

 

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2008/01/tax_break_awarded_to_ann_arbo...

 

"So Toledo, following a practice that is common across the country --
from New York to Tuscaloosa, Ala., -- paid to keep the company from
moving out. And Chrysler agreed in late July to invest $1.2 billion to
build a new factory and upgrade its existing downtown factory, where
workers build Jeep Wranglers and Cherokees. The Toledo Blade reported
on Sunday that the financial package was worth $232 million. City and
state officials confirmed that figure today.

Among similar
deals in other states, New York has agreed to packages of city and
state tax breaks and other incentives to keep companies like Merrill
Lynch ($27 million), IBJ Schroder Bank and Trust ($3.1 million) and
about 30 other companies in the city. Most recently, the city has been
negotiating with Reuters, the British media giant, which may build an
office tower in Times Square if it can work out the financial details
and reach an agreement on tax breaks.

Critics say cities and
states should not compete for corporate investments. ''We call it
economic war,'' said Arthur J. Rolnick, director of research at the
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. ''It is going on between Kentucky
and Ohio, between New York and New Jersey and between Minnesota and
Wisconsin.'' He added that the Chrysler deal was only the latest of the
lot."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE0DE1E3CF931A2575BC0A...

Is this the role of gov't? To provide sweetheart tax breaks for business? I must have missed that when reading about Locke, Hobbes, Rosseau, etc...

Washington Local School District gave GM Powertrain $21,000,000 in tax breaks to keep their plant here. Out of curiosity, do you know how many tax breaks TPS has given to corporations to stay in Toledo?

No I do not.

Well, the city was formed as people settled and set up shop here, so to speak, a governing body was formed and city paid into the city with taxes and so on.

 

As time went by the city grew and grew and needed more and more in the way of services, etc., which all cost money.

 

People need jobs and they want to purchase this or that and businesses set up shop to allow people to work and shop, etc.

 

The local government sees that there are needs to be met and acts to meet the needs and when more and more people come, there is a need for more and more and the local government goes out and seeks the resources to meet the expanding growth and uses incentives to bring in those from the outside as the growth continues, all the while not planning for the inevitabel decline.

 

Maybe if we limited a city population to a defined amount and turned away those that would exceed the number we would see no need for incentives from the local government.

 

As to the role, if there is nothing limiting the local government then it will act to sustain itself or close up shop when the balance sheet is tipped the wrong way.

 

When I lived in New England there were small communities that simply unincorporated themselves, when expenses out paced income.

 

 

Sorry. I guess I don't find the loss of over 600,000 jobs very amusing

That's not the part I was joking about..

Alot of people seem to think that the problems Toledo faces are somehow unique to Toledo and all the fault of the city administration, taxes, and, of course, unions

That it is the part I was joking about.

...in non-farm jobs in Ohio anyways. If a factory maintains its equipment (even without investing in new, more efficient machines) wouldn't the productivity of the plant continue to rise as better manual methods were adopted to work with the existing equipment? If a factory buys newer more efficient equipment that is usually to increase the units manufactured per hour, or decrease the number of employees needed to manufacture those units. Does Toledo's existing manufacturers employ the same number of employees 10 years ago to manufacture the same number of units as they did then? We have lost factories to other states, and overseas, but I think we would still have seen a decrease in factory jobs if we continued to manufacture the same number of units years after year. But we have probably lost "market share". And even if new factories relocate to Toledo they will continue to increase in efficiency, and decrease the amount of man-hours they need to manufacture products. As other nations begin to take over the majority of their own manufacturing needs, and compete with us for market share this will become more and more of a problem. I guess this is the price of a "peaceful" world where we permit other nations to prosper.

Old South End Broadway

If we blame foreign competition and tax abatements for the economic down turn then I would ask why was Ohio different than everyone else?

Ohio hasn't been on strong footing since the last recession. In the time between it made no significant gains in job creation when other areas who were dealt the same deck of cards did better.

Why is the rest of the nation only now in a recession when Ohio, and most importantly Toledo, has been in a recession for the better part of two decades?

Why did Ohio miss out on the tech boom? The housing boom?

MikeyA

MikeyA

Maybe because the leadership lacked the vision to react as the other states did?

 

We relied on the auto industry and its ancillary businesses as they had been good for so many years.

 

"Our priority now is to get out and aggressively sell our tax reform,
lawsuit reform, and technology investments so that Ohio is the first
place that comes to the minds of corporate decision makers in America
and around the world,” Taft said.

Taft recently touted Ohio during a trade mission to Europe and both he
and Johnson will be engaging in a number of “domestic trade missions”
to cities throughout the U.S., talking with companies about the
benefits of expanding in Ohio."

 

http://www.odod.state.oh.us/newsroom/2005pr/releases/1365.asp

 

Seems that people did not take to the incentives or talk, yet?

 

“Branding Ohio: State of Perfect Balance,” is the strategy developed by
the coalition as the marketing arm for the state's Department of
Development. Ohio offers an uncompromising balance of life, with both a
rewarding career and satisfying lifestyle."

 

http://www.toledofreepress.com/?id=7101

Ohio didn't miss out on anything. It participated. Ohio politicians laid out the red carpet for businesses with legions of tax abatements and grants. What happened is now history. The 1990s were a decade of choice, selection, and investment. Ohio wasn't chosen. THE. END.

Look, every state without a high-tech industry pulls this kind of bullshit reasoning. High-tech doesn't require that kind of manpower in the first place. Hence, most states will "lose". It's a pure math exercise.

So it's really not Ohio's fault that there's no Silicon Valley around Columbus or wherever. The centers of the US's high tech have already been determined, and those centers ARE NOT HERE.

Centers imply CONCENTRATION, not dispersal or distribution. Time to put your hopes in another bucket, guy. You sound like one of those many people I hear around Toledo who make plans to win the lottery, and it's equally pathetic.

I disagree GZ for multiple reasons.

Ohio and Michigan became so intrenched on manufacturing and manufacturing related jobs that they couldn't give enough funding towards opening other industries.

An example. Iowa is the magazine capital of the country. Virtually any and every magazine has a headquarters or major hub located there. This too was part of the tech boom.

Likewise Minnesota invested heavily into telemarketing and that too was a part of the tech boom.

Now Iowa and Minnesota are demographically similar to Ohio and Michigan in population, income, and industry. Why could they do it but Ohio and Michigan could not?

I believe we need to look no further than Toledo for the answer. The local bureaucracy stalled on virtually any change. The Mud Hens stadium was put up for vote in the early 90's but didn't open until 2002. This isn't bad if you're talking a 70k seat arena but it's bad when it's a 10K seat stadium.

What Ohio, Michigan, and Toledo lack is enough visionaries to push projects like the Marina District along. The result is slow projects like the MD or failed projects like the Rossford Arena.

MikeyA

MikeyA

Ohio didn't miss the "housing boom". House prices rose significantly in Ohio ... just not as much as the hugely overblown areas did. Since Ohio lost lots of jobs and industry during that period, house prices should have FALLEN to match what the economy was really doing.

And you should be grateful that it DID miss such outrageous rises, since you'd be in foreclosure right now otherwise. If you think we have plenty of foreclosures NOW -- and we do -- then imagine how many more we'd have if 200K people in Lucas County would have 50% to 100% more of a mortgage payment to make. Remember, those who didn't have a mortgage still did re-fis and took money out of their home equity (google "HELOC") and then re-joined the mortgaged population. As house prices rose so steeply, people confused DEBT with WEALTH, and then got into deep debt.

Such boomish rises in house prices DON'T lead to home affordability. House prices FALLING, is what leads to affordability.

I still see fliptards trying to do their grisly and ruinous work in Toledo. Fuck them. I hope they bankrupt and suicide for what they've done to our nation.

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