'Probable cause' for bias found in cases

"The staff of the Ohio Civil Rights Commission
found "probable cause" that the administration of Mayor Carty
Finkbeiner discriminated against three black city officials when they
were fired last year.

A spokesman for the civil rights board in Columbus said the board could
take up the Toledo discrimination case as early as Thursday.


Toni Delgado said the staff would recommend the full board approve a finding of probable cause of discrimination.


Such a finding would only be one step in a lengthy process aimed at
getting the complainants' their jobs back, or awarding them back pay.


If the board approves the finding, the city could ask for reconsideration.

If after reconsideration the commission still supports the finding, it
would be reviewed independently by an administrative law judge. If the
law judge upholds the probable cause finding, it would be referred to
the Ohio attorney general, who would decide whether to file a case in
one of Ohio's common pleas courts. "



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Lord knows there will likely be a lot of "probable cause" found where this Administration is concerned.

I suspect on a great number of issues

Carty, God Love him, cuse no one else does.... He has always been a "player" to whomever (wife included) whom gets him what he wants.. (elected).. A good man, but with a way abt, him that just ticks people off.. I suggest a PR manager that knows how to deal with him and his past... Forget the FLOWERS & go after the JOBS!!

the chance. Now, if these people return, it would seem to be impossible for him to work with them. If we had a "do-nothing" mayor (a lot of people seem to put Jack Frod in this category) then perhaps this wouldn't have happened. Certainly, it would have been difficult to bring charges of discrimination against him. Perhaps this battle will drag out until the election of another mayor, and then s/he can get the blame for any large award that is settled. If it is decided that there was no discrimination (something that I find politcally impossible for the state government to do) then I guess that this might go to the U S Supreme Court for a settlement. I say throw money at the problem, and lay off by seniority from Toledo's work-force. We could get along with less police and fire, but God knows we need more middle-management to bring "equity" of employment.

Old South End Broadway

That chance can come our way again, this time with more organization, direction, and committment.

I think I mentioned that the Recall would have effectively ended this nasty practice by the OBC. At this point, I don't think kickin him early will help. No, most likely better to let it all play out in the Court so that the voters can have a healthy taste of what happens through apathy.

According to a press release from the city: OCRC Spokesman backs away from claim that probable cause has been found in case.


"Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually dirty kitchen, and
five times out of nine I'll show you an exceptional man." -Charles

There's a city full of walls you can post complaints at

It appears that the OCRC is backing up the ruling. Look at Feb 6, 2008 Toledo Journal. It looks like CF and company are guilty as hell.

It doesn't matter because no one worth voting for will want to run for mayor.



Have you considered D. Michael Collins ?
How about Tom Waniewski ?

Since Toledoans don't recognize their names they have a worse chance of becoming mayor as Ron Paul does of becoming President.



A lot can happen in 2 years.

statement. Who, in their right mind, would offer themselves - their families up to the Blade's character assassination? Look at what is happening to Darlene Fisher right now because she's talking out of class and not co-operating with the cool kids.

In my opinion, Toledo will never have a fresh face in the Mayor's office unless the Blade runs them. Er, comments on them. Uh - writes editorials for them -

There's not really a good way to say it - but it's painfully obvious so everybody can do their own math.

What we really need in Toledo is a solid daily to compete with the Blade. I think the advertisers would be co-operative :-)

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

“The City of Toledo has some real concerns with how this is being handled,” said Reinbolt. “How the findings could be reported in the press before we were informed is amazing. How they could have reached a finding without interviewing the witnesses and the person named in the complaint is incredible.

“The Mayor looks forward, as do I and other key members of the administration, to being interviewed for the first time. Until such interviews occur, how could any preliminary finding be announced?”

Going back to yet anotther case of bias, Richard Brown: Take a good look in the mirror at the way you have treated employees and then cry me a freakin river!

Priliminary finding by the City: Suspend Brown w/o pay pending the outcome of his charges. Yes, I said charges as no coviction has occured and no progress on the case, just continuing stalling by the Prosecutor and the Judge.

The City is in no position to be complaining about other groups returning the City's favorite volley...slam and then duck!

if it's a blatant case of discrimination? I'd think they would only use the time and resources to interview the other side if there was any opportunity that the complaint wasn't correct.

If there was no possibility to defend - why bother listening to someone trying to defend indefensible conduct? I wouldn't waste the time.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

the words you've written, Chad.

voters can have a healthy taste of what happens through apathy

What makes you think they'll suddenly start caring?

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

true enough, however ,I think we've all been to a buffett or 2 we didn't care for. We become more selective in our choices.

From now on I'm not voting for any mayoral candidate or councilman for my district unless he or she is black or hispanic. That way I won't have to worry about being taxed for a settlement based on discrimination. I don't remember Jack Ford having this problem. I would rather have an ineffectual mayor (of whatever color or creed) rather than be part of a bankrupt city destroyed by a discrimination settlement. But I'll be damned if I vote for any more taxes. To hell with them all.

Old South End Broadway

The mayor's race didn't save Detroit from a $9 million settlement.

Perhaps you should focus on attempting to vote for the most qualified candidate (whatever that person's race/ethnic background may be). ;)

Of course, that's presuming we actually get any qualified candidates to run for the job. lol

Kilpatrick, Finkbeiner, and Ford do all have one thing in common. They're democrats.

This shows what happens when one party gains so much control that any debate becomes left in the dust.

I am not shocked Detroit is out 9 mil and is half the size it was half a century ago. In fact I'd be more surprised if a similar situation in Toledo doesn't occur in the coming years.

Between racist mayors, back room campaign financing, and former councilwomen who fake kidnappings the city is going down the drain. The smart ones leave for a reason.

Would the last person in Toledo remember to please turn out the light?



God knows that Carty is the world biggest Ass, but he is no racist. He’s an asshole to everyone regardless of skin color.

it's often cheeper to keep em.

CF may be perceived to be the wold's biggest ass, and there are no laws against being an ass. There are laws that prohibit ass's and non-ass's from discriminating against people because of race, religion, ethnic origin, lifestyle, height, weight, age,etc. Because CF is is an ass doesn't give him the right to break laws. I recently had an interview for a job at the local location of a national retailer. The thirty-something interviewer told me that because I had been in the work force for over forty years, I had already had my career and therefore he wasn't going to hire me. According to some people this type of behavior by the retailer is okay. Frankly, it's against the law to discriminate against me because of my age and it was against the law for CF to discriminate against the three black employees who he terminated. When this case are made public I'm curious to see the the details surrounding the dismissals.

There is a difference between firing a black man and firing a man because he's black.

Had the guy been white he'd still be just as fired. Everyone knows Carty is an ass and treats everyone like dogshit on his shoe.

I think the people in this suit are just taking advantage of their color by filing a suit that would be impossible if they were white,

We had to have them and name 'protected' classes of people simply to protect them against people who behave likes asses.

No one has the right, as an elected government official, to perform their duties with bias toward race, religion or any other protected class.

And yes - I have a very strong belief that our Mayor is bigoted against black people. Predominantly because the people who have complained that they were treated discrimination, have each been black. As well as having observed the Mayor offering the tired old standard defense I see white males use when they are asked about their bias - when the Mayor listed all the 'colored' people he knows.

These factors with the absence of any people saying that the Mayor fired them for being white is a very strong case, in my mind.

If anyone has heard a claim of the Mayor firing someone for being white - speak up!!!

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

I have a very strong belief that our Mayor is bigoted against black people. Predominantly because the people who have complained that they were treated discrimination, have each been black
Well how seriously do you think anyone would have taken a claim is discrimination had they been white?
Honestly.. he's a racist because the only people who cry discrimination are black?
Hell even if a white person had claimed discrimination when Ford was in office they would have been laughed out of the court.
Carty discriminates against anyone who doesn't kiss his ass period.

"And yes - I have a very strong belief that our Mayor is bigoted against black people. Predominantly because the people who have complained that they were treated discrimination, have each been black."

Thats a terrific argument. I was approached several times for crack in downtown Toledo by black men. Because they've each been black, I guess I have probable cause to believe all black people must be crack heads.


I asked some people downtown and they said, not a single one.

I find it hard to believe that only three people lost their job in trying to balance the budget. Thats' hardly a savings to put a dent in a $10 million budget shortfall.

The March 2, 2007 issue of the Toledo Blade (this can be accessed for free through the T-LCPL database if you have a card) said that two departments and 27 executive positions would be eliminated. In addition, the restructuring would eliminate 124 jobs (most of them already vacant). The color or creed of those eliminated wasn't mentioned. Perhaps that would have been a dumb move because it would have evidenced "discrimination", or what was considered such if "color" or "creed" was taken into accout. This is a direct quote from The Toledo Blade: " 124 city jobs would be eliminated, but most of the jobs are already vacant. Assistant Chief Operating Officer Dave Moebius said about 35 people will actually lose their jobs, but may have opportunities to fill other vacant positions, bump someone with less seniority, or retire." Perhaps most of these 35 people were also black.

Old South End Broadway

I know a white person who was laid off from the city - she worked in our office as a temp for awhile shortly after her layoff.


Kat> Well how seriously do you think anyone would have taken a claim is discrimination had they been white?

Response> Me? My opinion on this is if anyone is discriminated against because of the color of their skin - it should be taken very seriously.

Kat>Honestly.. he's a racist because the only people who cry discrimination are black?

Response> this is how it is supposed to work if you've been fired because you're black - I think I missed your point here.

If he fired someone for being female - he'd be a sexist. And that's illegal under the law. If he fires someone because they're black and that person would prefer an all white, male cabinet and management team - then that person is a racist and also in violation of the law.

I guess I'm missing your point here. I'm sorry.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

IF you're fired because you're black its discrimination. If someone is fired because of their sex then it is also discrimination.
I never said it wasn't.
But I don't happen to think that every time a black person gets fired its because they are black. As I said in another post, there is a huge difference in firing a black man and firing a man because he's black.
I guess my issue is coming more from the idea that it seems like every time a person of color loses their job they cry discrimination. I think its an easy crutch to use and that its overuse demeans the cases of true discrimination.

I think Carty is livin large in Cartyland and thinking in a "if you ain't with me you're agin me" kind of way and that it applies to everyone regardless of color.

Is Carty a racist? Probably so. Does he discriminate? I don't think you could separate the discrimination from the normal abuse.

I think it's likely that these people were wrongfully terminated, but as to the motivation I wouldn't even care to speculate.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

+++I think the people in this suit are just taking advantage of their color by filing a suit that would be impossible if they were white,+++

It would be impossible to fire someone because they were black if they were actually white. Of course it would be impossible filing a discrimination suit if you were white unless you claimed that you were black. I don't even see how that would work.

that just because a black person is fired doesn't mean that they were not fired because they were doing a piss poor job, or that they had less seniority.

I've worked places before where a white employee was fired for doing the same things black employees were doing but they weren't fired because the bosses were afraid of a discrimination suit.
That to me smacks of discrimination of the white employee because they were treated differently based entirely on the color of their skin.
There are people of color who abuse that.

I worked at the Main Post Office most of my working life. I remember a black guy who was just a lousy soft-ball player. He filed a discrimination complaint against the batting coach of the softball team at the Main Post Office. From what I heard the EEO administrator for our local office seriously watched while this guy demonstrated swinging at an imaginary ball and catching an imaginary fly ball. It's not just a job, it's entertainment. I also remeber blacks filing EEO complaints against other blacks because they "discriminated" against them. The black supervisors weren't "black" enough.

Old South End Broadway

on the news tonight..Fink lost in his "P/C" cause. Probable Cause that is. OCRC makes ruling and finds "Probable Cause".

Fink of course intends to challenge the ruling. Shocked I tell ya, Shocked! ;-)

Would you not attempt to challenge the ruling? What's so shocking about defending yourself?

Bet the local OCRC rep didn't recuse herself despite her friendship to a complianant.

Old South End Broadway

At a time like this and with a complaint like this, the Mayor and staff, could consider some diplomacy, which has not been a strong suit for any of them.

While he is fighting the matter in the public arena before the conciliation, he would be well advised to choose his words carefully.


it's hard to tell sarcasim ;-) Not shocked at all, I would expect anyone to defend themselves.

Think about this though, what if in defending himself and the decisions, right or wrong, it ends up being more costly than it's worth?

The mayor does need to be diplomatic and bring this situation to a reasonable end as soon as possible. The longer he lets it fester the more it will polarize the community, but maybe that's what he wants to do is divide the community, so the community will be so busy fighting itself it won't see whats really going on. Stealth can come in the form of physical invisibility or by distracting the intended victims.

...without resigning? Can he work with these people after this? Will his administration just buy these people off? How much is "conciliation" going to cost us taxpayers? A $1.00 each? Compensation for all the salary thev've lost since being removed from pay status? Compensation for any possible promotions that tney didn't receive because they weren't in a pay status? Are we talking $200,000 total for all three, or $500,000 for all three if we consider lost promotions? Or is this just the tip of the ice-burg? Is it cheaper to fight, or do we just open the treasury to their grasping fingers?

Old South End Broadway

It's more likely they will have to come to some terms for a settlement. I think the situation is too polarizing for there to be a kiss and make up at this late date. No, just cut em a check for 2 yrs severence and write a good recomendation for them. Being fired w/o just cause is worth much more in Court than what I suggest. I honestly feel it's in both sides best interests to quickly bring this to an end. Kirk is right, the longer it festers, the worse it will be for everyone.

I imagine that the three people have families to support just like the rest of us and over the last year their financial situation may have been greatly impacted. As far as the mayor resolving this matter quickly, I would be surprised if he did. Last night I was over at a City employees house and she told me that the three plaintiffs asked the Democratic Party to arrange meetings with the mayor last April 2007 to resolve the issues. Nothing happened because the mayor sent a message back to the three plaintiffs that they could go pound sand up their butts. If the mayor did say this, I wonder if the Mayor is open to such meetings today with charges from the State of Ohio looming over his head. If the Mayor really loves Toledo like he says he does and if he really thinks Toledo is the most livable City, this situation will be resolved in just a few months. If the mayor doesn't get it resolved quickly, Toledo may never recover from it and become known as the Most Unlivable City.

It's Finkbeiner we're talking about.

This weekend I heard talk about a group of people of all races has been organized to go to Columbus, Ohio and address the Ohio Civil Rights Commission about the despicable treatment of minorities and women by Carlton Finkbeiner. It appears that the City of Toledo Legal Department has sent a letter to the head of the Ohio Civil Rights Commission chastising him for the way the investigation was conducted and the conclusions and recommendations of the investigations. This group plans to go to Columbus when Carlton and his bullies go before the Civil Rights Commission to request reconciliation. I've seen the letter that the City of Toledo sent the OCRC. I wonder if such a scathing letter would have been sent to the OCRC if the head of the OCRC were not a minority.

for so long while allowing others to identify our leaders that when a minority is in a position of power it is very easy to feel empowered to disrespect them and the office that they hold. It is time that we shoulder our own responsibilities to each other. Then we can begin the process of working together.

Rev. Rose said it very well when he said that white people will champion our cause when it is a right cause.

It is time for this nonsense to stop with the mayor and his cronies. He is such a duplicitous being and we ALL need to hold him accountable.

allowing others to identify our leaders

Ain't that the truth! Commercial media has been pulling this crap for years - more years than I've been alive - and it's way past time to stop.

Moreover there are too many people who consider the source and not the issue. I'm willing to support any issue that will actually help the intolerable situation in Toledo government, but the issue must actually help fix the government. We still have many politicos and would-be civic leaders who seek to promote their own agenda under the guise of civic improvement.

Mad Jack
Mad Jack's Shack

I am curious if CF is going to go to Columbus himself to plea for reversal of the findings.He sometimes thinks he is somewhat of a magician with his words.

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