This coming Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 7 pm at the West Toledo Public Library on 1320 Sylvania Ave. We just want to organize the troops and get ready for this effort which is happening sooner than you think.

Tom Morrissey
Recall Carty

No votes yet


would we replace him with?


Why should one more drop of our soldiers blood be spilled on foreign soil? Why fight/die for 'freedom' anymore when our citizens are pissing it away at the voting booth?


'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

You don't have much time to organize if your goal is to try to get this on the November ballot, if you manage to get farther than the last attempt to recall Carty or the attempt to recall Jack Ford.

Council does have a Democratic majority, yet the amount of scrambling and deal making that would happen if it looked like a recall could happen would be interesting to see if was Frank Szollosi or Michael Ashford that ended up being the next Council President. Or if they continued to not be able to agree...

Is it worth it to consider that? Maybe if it looks like close to the 25% of the electors voting at the last regular City election for that office are interested. I listen to WSPD enough to know this is something they are pushing/supporting yet I wonder when it comes actually down to it with the huge unknown of who would end up being Mayor if you'll get close to 20,000 people willing to think it's worth the risk.

We don't remember days only moments...

Dumb move to attracting future leaders. Why would anyone want to devote time / resources to lead this city or schools in the future when you start changing the rules in mid stream such as with Harner and now with Carty.

Votes and Elections mean something. Let the term play out so future leaders don't get spooked by the precendent sent by your good intentions. I know you mean well, but short-term wants NEED to be balanced with long-term discipline.

Time flies by, heck, this year's almost half over, and Carty knows this!

And here we go again............

When stupid people are voted into office in EVERY election one must wonder who would replace them when we remove them? More stupid people?



"I'm a 21 year old UT student. I see my city shrinkning - 11th fastest in the country, I see my city doing plain awful. I've lived here 21 years, and if i can do anything about it, I will. And this is it."

For your information, Toledo has been a shrinking city without Carty's intervention. If you want to do something about it, start a profitable business and employ people. People go where the jobs are. And this isn't unique to Toledo.

The people elected the mayor-Twice. It won't be Carty who will look foolish in the national media it will be the voters.



As Cool Hand Luke (Paul Newman) said to Dragline (George Kennedy) in the 1960's prison movie Cool Hand Luke...

"Quit beating it in the ground. You're not doing anyone any good."

I'm curious, Thomas. You present this as some sort of pre-existing movement where your group has a plan. I'm not going to get into the merits of your movement, but I want to know a few things.

1. How many people are in this group so far? Or is it you simply trying to start such a movement? What people are involved in this group (politicians, businessmen, students, preachers, teachers, your mother)?

2. If there is such a group, what is your plan of action? Above you stated that this will be different from previous efforts to oust the mayor. How is it different? What exactly is your plan?

3. Lisa Renee stated above that it is unlikely you have the time to get the requisite signatures for the November ballot. I tend to agree with her assessment. How would you expedite collecting signatures?

If there enough people out there that feel strongly about removing the mayor, then this is a valid cause. It is just as much of the electoral process as an election itself. Don't let these folks dissuade you from your passion, but if you answer my questions, you might demonstrate a viable movement and get more support.

Junta said, "If there are enough people out there that feel strongly about removing the mayor, then this is a valid cause."

Really? Since when is getting involved in anything valid just because the majority says so?

Junta, would you jump off the new bridge because 51% of Toledoans did it?

How about coming up with ideas that enable and empower Carty rather than trying to get rid of him? Oh...we won't do that...that would require that we admit we are all responsible to some degree to the success of Toledo. Its much easier to sacrafice nothing of ourselves and keep blaming one person.

Section 75. Ordinances may be initiated.

Any proposed ordinance may be submitted to the Council by petition filed with the Clerk and signed by electors of the City equal in number to twelve percent (12%) of the total number of votes cast for all candidates for Mayor at the most recent general municipal election at which the Mayor was elected.

(Amended by electors 11-3-92)
Section 76. Duty of Council when petition sufficient.

If the certificate of the Clerk shows the petition to be sufficient, the Clerk shall submit the proposed ordinance to the Council at its next regular meeting. The Council shall at once proceed to consider the same and shall take final action thereon, within thirty days from the date of the submission thereof. If the Council fails to adopt such proposed ordinance it shall be submitted to the vote of the electors in the same manner as for an ordinance upon which a referendum vote is demanded.

(Amended by electors 11-7-00)
Section 77. Proceedings for referendum when Council amends.

If the Council passes the proposed ordinance with amendment substantially changing its tenor or effect, the ordinance in its original form shall be submitted to a vote as in the case of failure to pass in any form, provided that the proponents thereof secure and cause to be filed with the Clerk, within fifteen days after final action by the Council, an additional petition for the adoption thereof signed by electors of the City equal in number to at least one percent of the total number of ballots cast for Members of Council at the preceding municipal election; provided that no elector having signed the original petition or for such ordinance shall be eligible to sign the additional petition, and no signatures made or petition paper signed before action by the Council on the original petition shall be valid for the additional petition. If the ordinance as originally proposed is adopted by the electors, the amended ordinance as passed by the Council, shall be without effect, and in any case the operation of such amended ordinance shall be suspended until a referendum is possible to be had.

(Amended by electors 11-7-00)
Section 78. Ordinance to repeal may be initiated.

Proposed ordinances for repealing any existing ordinance in whole or in part may be submitted to the Council as provided in the preceding sections for initiating ordinances.
Section 79. Compulsory referendum of certain measures - franchises.

No ordinance or resolution for a public improvement requiring or authorizing the expenditure of more than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding, or for the granting of a general public utility franchise, shall be effective until the same shall be approved by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon; provided, however, no convention center, exhibit hall, sports arena, or municipal theater, other than a sports arena located in the City's Marina District, being the area bounded by the Maumee River, Interstate Highway 280, Front Street and Main Street, shall be constructed, acquired, or leased unless the ordinance or resolution authorizing construction bidding, acquisition, or leasing shall have been approved by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon, whether or not such ordinance or resolution requires or authorizes the expenditure of more or less than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding. A general public utility is one in which all the people of the City may have an interest.

(Amended by electors 9-11-01)
Section 80. Duty of Clerk to request election thereon.

Within five days after the passage of an ordinance or resolution within the provisions of the preceding section, the Clerk of the Council shall request the election authorities to call a special election to be held not less than thirty nor more than fifty days after the passage of such ordinance or resolution.
Section 81. Referendum on Petition.

Every ordinance shall be subject to the referendum if at any time within thirty (30)days after its adoption a petition signed by electors of the City equal in number to at least twelve percent (12%) of the total number of votes cast for all candidates for Mayor at the most recent general election at which the Mayor was elected be filed with the Clerk requesting that such ordinance be submitted to the people for consideration.

(Amended by electors 11-3-92)
Section 82. Ballots on referendum.

The ballots used in voting upon any measure submitted to the electors for approval shall contain the title and subject thereof, which may be stated in the title, and underneath the two propositions, "For the ordinance (resolution or amendment)" and "Against the ordinance (resolution or amendment)." Immediately at the left of each proposition there shall be a square in which by making a cross (X) the voter may vote for or against the proposition.

(Amended by electors 11-4-19)
Section 83. Elections on Referendum and Initiative Petitions.

Elections as to initiative and referendum petitions shall be held at the next regular general or primary election occurring not less than seventy-five (75) days after the Clerk certifies the issue to the election authorities.

(Amended by electors 11-3-92)
Section 84. Effect of approving vote.

If a majority of the votes cast be in favor of a measure submitted to referendum, the same shall thereupon become adopted as if it had been passed by Council; or in case of an amendment to the Charter, it shall become of full force as a part thereof.
Section 85. Emergency measures subject to referendum.

An emergency measure shall be subject to a referendum as other ordinances or resolutions. If, upon a referendum, it be not approved, it shall stand repealed, but any expense incurred in accordance with the provisions thereof and before the disapproval by referendum shall be paid under the authority thereof as if the measure were still effective. Until repealed upon referendum it shall continue effective.
Section 86. Power of the Council to amend or repeal.

After the people have legislated for themselves, either by initiating legislation or passing favorably or unfavorably upon legislation referred to them by any body, their action is final and shall not be subject to amendment or repeal, without a general vote of the people of Toledo on same.

(Amended by electors 11-2-15)
Section 87. Recall of officer by petition.

(Repealed by electors 11-6-34)
Section 87A. Removal of Officer by Recall Petition.

Any elected officer provided for in this Charter may be removed from office by the electors by the following procedure:

A petition for the recall of the elected officer containing a statement in not more than two hundred (200) words of the grounds for the recall may be circulated once in any calendar year within a circulation period not to exceed ninety (90) days, and may be filed with the Clerk of Council. Such petition to be sufficient shall be signed by at least that number of electors which equals twenty-five percent (25%) of the electors voting at the last regular City election for that office. Within ten (10) days after the day on which such petition shall have been filed, the Clerk shall determine whether or not it meets the requirements hereof. If the Clerk shall find the petition insufficient, the Clerk shall promptly certify the particulars in which the petition is defective, deliver a copy of the certificate to the person who filed the petition, and make a record of such delivery. Such person shall be allowed a period of twenty (20) days after the day on which such delivery was made in which to make the petition sufficient. If the Clerk shall find the petition sufficient, the Clerk shall promptly so certify to the election authorities, shall deliver a copy of such certificate to the officer whose removal is sought, and shall make a record of such delivery. If such officer shall not resign within five (5) days after the day on which such delivery shall have been made, the election authorities shall thereupon fix a day for holding the recall election at the next regular municipal election held not less than sixty (60) days after the expiration of the period of five days last mentioned. No petition to recall shall be filed within one (1) year after an officer takes office.

(Added by electors 11-3-92)
Section 87B. Ballots.

The ballots at such recall election shall conform to the following requirements: With respect to each person whose removal is sought, the question shall be submitted: Shall (name of person) be removed from the office of (title of office) by recall. Immediately following each such question there shall be printed on the ballots the two propositions in the order here set forth: For the recall of (name of person); Against the recall of (name of person).

(Added by electors 11-3-92)
Section 87C. Filling of Vacancies Created by Recall.

In any such recall election, if a majority of the votes cast on the question of removal of any officer is affirmative, the person whose removal is sought shall thereupon be deemed removed from office upon the certification of the official results of that election and the vacancy caused by such recall shall be filled in the manner provided in this Charter for filling vacancies in such office. The officer removed by such recall election shall not be eligible for appointment to the vacancy created thereby.

(Added by electors 11-3-92)
Section 87D. Term Limitations.

(a) No person shall serve more than twelve (12) consecutive years on the Council and shall not be placed on the ballot for election for any term if service for the full term would constitute a violation hereof; except that the two (2) year term served by district Council members during 2002 and 2003 in order to commence "staggered terms" will not count against the permitted total of twelve (12) consecutive years or be considered an "interruption" for purposes of determining the twelve (12) consecutive years a person has served. For purposes of this section no distinction shall be made between an at-large or district Council member except for the district Council members serving two years terms during 2002 and 2003. A Council member who has completed service of twelve (12) consecutive years may be elected or appointed to City Council if such term or partial term for which the Council member is elected or appointed shall commence no earlier than one year from the date on which such Council member completed his or her twelve (12) consecutive years of service on City Council.

(b) No person shall serve more than two (2) consecutive four (4) year terms as Mayor; provided, however, that service in the position of Mayor pursuant to appointment or succession to that office, or service on the Council pursuant to appointment to the position of Mayor, shall not be credited toward any term limitation.

(Amended by electors 11-7-00; 11-7-06)
Section 88. Validity of recall petitions.

(Repealed by electors 11-6-34)
Section 89. Proceeding when petition sufficient.

(Repealed by electors 11-6-34)
Section 90. Conduct of election - candidates - ballots.

(Repealed by electors 11-6-34)
Section 91. Limitation on recall elections.

(Repealed by electors 11-6-34)
Section 92. Requirements of petition.

A petition to initiate an ordinance, or for a referendum of an ordinance or resolution, or of an amendment to this charter, need not be made on one paper, but may be the aggregate of two or more petition papers. Each signer of a petition paper shall sign his or her name in ink or indelible pencil, and shall place thereon, after his or her name, his or her place of residence by street and number. To each paper there shall be attached an affidavit by the circulator thereof stating the number of signers thereto and that each signature thereon is the genuine signature of the person whose name it purports to be, and that it was made in the presence of the affiant.

(Amended by electors 11-7-00)
Section 93. Uniformity of petition papers.

Petition papers circulated with respect to any proposition shall be uniform in character and form. The Clerk shall determine and keep on file forms of blanks to be used in the several instances of petition, and all petition papers shall conform to such forms, respectively.
Section 94. What the petition shall show.

If the petition is to initiate an ordinance, or to refer an ordinance or resolution, or for an amendment to this Charter, each petition paper shall set forth the proposed measure in full. Every petition, whether for initiating an ordinance or other purpose, shall bear the names of five electors whose names shall appear on each petition paper, and who shall thereon be designated as the proponents of the proposition of the petition, and who shall be recognized as the committee in charge thereof.
Section 95. Clerk to determine sufficiency of petition.

The Clerk shall determine the sufficiency of a petition within ten days after the same is filed with him or her, and endorse his or her certificate thereon. When supplemental petition papers are filed, as herein provided, the Clerk shall determine the sufficiency of the petition as supplemented within ten days and endorse thereon his or her finding.

(Amended by electors 11-7-00)
Section 96. Supplementing certain insufficient petitions.

If the Clerk certifies that a petition to initiate an ordinance, or to amend this Charter, is insufficiently signed, the same may be supplemented by the filing with the Clerk within fifteen days, of an additional petition paper or papers, prepared, signed and authenticated as in the case of the original petition.
Section 97. Effect of Clerk's decision.

The final decision of the Clerk that a petition is insufficient shall not prejudice the filing of a new petition for the same purpose. The finding of the Clerk as to the sufficiency of a petition shall be a final order.
Section 98. Duty of Clerk when petition sufficient.

After the Clerk determines that a petition is sufficient, the Clerk shall certify the fact to the Council, and, if the petition requires an election, also to the election authorities, of whom the Clerk shall request that provision for an election be made.

(Amended by electors 11-7-00)
Section 99. Notice of election.

In case of a referendum election, the Clerk, not less than twenty days before the date thereof, and on the tenth day before said date, shall cause to be published in the City Journal a notice of such election. The notice shall set forth a true copy of the measure as given in the petition or resolution.
Section 100. Publication of initiated ordinances.

Initiated ordinances, if passed by the Council, shall be published as in case of measures originating in the Council. Ordinances or resolutions, or amendments to this Charter, adopted upon a referendum need not be subsequently published, but a statement that they are effective as a result of the referendum, giving the full title of each approved, shall be made in the City Journal.$fn=altmain-nf.htm$q=recall%20$x=server$3.0#LPHit1

Thomas I'm know knocking your plan I just don't think you'll be successful.

However I think you'd have a better chance if you had a politician that wanted to run for mayor that was not on the general election ballot endorse your idea.

For instance I'd say Keith Wilkowski. He was kept out of the general election despite getting over 25% of the vote in the primary. Now if the rules were changed to allow for other candidates who recieved over 10% of the results Ludeman and Wilkowski would have been in the general election. I'd argue with them in the election the results may have been different.

If you had a name like one of them support your changes then you'd get more momentum especially if they announced their intentions to run in a special election. Hell if you had Wilkowski and he brought all of his supporters that would mean over 25% of the city's voting public would be with you, in theory.



The list provided that gives you idiots a reason for a recall are rediculous and you will fail. The shortcomings of Toledo are economics with a shrinking manufacturing base and not the policies of our mayor. There is plenty of room for blame and you can start with city council. This city has voted in Democrats year after year and the city has been going down hill for years. As long as you vote with your heart and not your brain, if you have one, this cycle will continue.

"All evil and unhappiness in this world comes from the I-concept."

"All evil and unhappiness in this world comes from the I-concept."

progressively worse since around the mid-80's. PLENTY of blame to go around. Also-I maintain Wilkowski was/is a phony that only ran to try to keep a member of the JFo 'team' (is it A or B? I don't really care)in power-and Lud (the dud) was never serious about running in the first place. The repugnant party here knew it'd be between ford and another dem (and Probably The Fink), so as usual, they didn't try, showing once again their total gutlessness, and the reason Lucas Co. has been a one-party ruled county since before I was born-hell, maybe since its creation. So-I repeat-who do you replace him with? And, yes, I confess to all once again, although I've said it before-I voted for Herr Finkenbeiner for only the second time in my life that election-but-ONLY to get Block's puppet Ford out of office. That's the only reason he became mayor again. Well, it's also true that 50% of toledo loves him. Why, I don't know. Just because he's a cheerleader for the town doesn't excuse his obvious emotional problems. The thing that really gets me was all the lies he told about turning over a new leaf and controlling his anger after his 'brush with death'/heart surgery. Anyone else notice you haven't seen Sweet Amy (who helped with the 'new Carty' image)since the election? LOL


Why should one more drop of our soldiers blood be spilled on foreign soil? Why fight/die for 'freedom' anymore when our citizens are pissing it away at the voting booth?


'I used to have compassion, but they taxed it and legislated it out of existence.'

It is a startling recommendation for it.

Junta - my hat is off to you :-) Wonderfully put.

Tell me more Thomas. I'm interested.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

the election results prove that. Re Call Carty? Why? Because he is trying to make Toledo an environment that will attract business and residents alike.

If we straighten out our poor school system, clean up the neighborhoods and yes, keep lawns groomed, city streets pleasant with flowers, bridges lit up, bike paths...people may know what: Toledo has alot to offer...I'm starting my business here, I am making my home here.

As far as flowers on opinion, the trail is a very busy area with the ZOO as an attraction bringing folks in from areas outside of Toledo, should we not want it to look pleasant and taken care of.

I am sorry Thomas, I cannot see recalling Carty, as much as he may be a passionate, high strung, leader with that still... he has done more for this city than...

My advice to you...Simply do not vote for him should he run again...possibly you yourself could run...

Into nice ones and then talk about my level of maturity. Real nice.

Little hint to you - when you post two things happen. It changes the time listed on the post and we see it as grayed out on this end. And it adds it to the recent posts columns on the right hand side of the screen.

And secondly since I didn't name any names and you aren't the only person who has a problem with this idea - the flurry of activity on your end would appear to have been a guilt response.

Have a great day.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

The first thing that must be taken into consideration is: What is in the best intrests of the City of Toledo?

The blame game is relentless and pointless. We, the voters, one way or another put the Administration in place. Sure, they lied and fed us a line of bs so long a accurate count is impossible. The facts are clear..Not just Carty and his administration, not just City Council and their staffers, not just the Voters...WE ARE ALL TO BLAME!

The reality is that the city has had single party rule for way tooooooooooooo long! City manager sounds a lot like even more red tape,there's already plenty to dispense with. Changing it now, mid term..silly and costly.

Re-calling the Mayor and his staff will ultimately do little more than throw our city into the crapper for the forseable future. We can ill afford the negitive publicity and the sharing of our "distress" nationwide will prove to everyone, Toledo should be avoided.

Rather than squander tallent and resources trying to expell the Mayor,wouldn't it make more sense to convince the Administration on the error of their ways and help lead them and us to a more successfull future? Rather than sitting on your chair complaining and running away with sensless,trite, dangerous and self-distructivve comentary and guilt ridden action, get downtown with concrete ideas and push your way into the places that you will be heard.

Please use your head(s), we cannot afford either financially or in our reputation to go through a re-call election and it will consume the population in scandal rather than triumph. We can re-define the way this Administration goes forward by stating in mass number..the end game. To get the attention we need and deserve, we have to be more intelligent than they are, rather than sinking to nasty tactics that will result in more chaos. Rise above the retoric and defend your stance with facts and solid ideas that have hope...not harm in mind.

Check the times.

One posts above you at Mon, 2007-05-21 08:57.
YOU post at Mon, 2007-05-21 15:45.
One posts below you at Mon, 2007-05-21 09:06.

This means you posted somewhere between 8:57 and 9:06 Monday morning. Then edited that post at 3:45 p.m.

C'mon - this isn't a new post.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

"Last week, the owner of the shopping center signed a $35 million deal with Toledo Mayor Jack Ford to put the store on the Westgate property. The project still has to be approved by the Planning Commission next month. Until then, Finkbeiner is doing everything he can to put a stop to it.

"The Costco warehouse simply does not fit at this site and its gas station is not needed or wanted period -- end of discussion," said Finkbeiner."

Tuesday, May 22, 2007
Comments on the Re-Call Effort
A Re-Call of the Mayor and his Staff will ultimately do little more than throw this city into the crapper for the foreseeable future!!!!!!!!

I admire the effort and tenacity of those involved in the re-call effort. however, I believe this is a mis-guided and dangerous path to follow that will have the same result as the Clinton impeachment. Youth and vigor are no match for age and treachery. Not only does the re-call effort show immaturity, it shows a broader problem that people are frustrated by the current system and lack of forward progress.

Here's the BIG picture: Toledoans will look like idiots in the national media and on the Internet. It will show we, as citizens are unable to handle our problems in house and that we would rather be a scandal and show the world that Toledo should be avoided at all costs as we are unable to manage a small city.

Businesses will run to the border, residents will will continue the exodus to the burbs and Toledo will end up like Detroit and Youngstown...VACANT, BROKE AND unable to attract people and business. Toledo will end up the laughing stock of the the area and become the armpit of humanity that does little more than stink up the place.

We have plenty of natural and man made resources to expand on. We have a huge lake, air, ground and rail transportation and we have a bedrock of people that have great ideas and there are a few business leaders that are still willing to go for the brass ring. We must encourage positive forward movement by demonstrating that we are brilliant and able to move beyond this current stagnation and set aside personal gain for the greater good. We can show by example, how to save a city in distress and we can bring Toledo out of the mire and into the new age of high speed transactions that offer incentive and promise of brighter days.

We must draw positive national attention by showing we are not crap eating bottom feeders, but we are progressive and engaged in reform. Sacrifice, team work and non-stop aggressive forward movement is all we are interested in. We're not going down a path that leads to destruction if we join together and stand firm on reality.

I implore each and every Toledoan to rise above petty gripes and get busy making a difference that will positively impact the lives of the whole. Don't do something foolish and ill-advised that will ram our children into the dark ages.

Posted by Chad at 4:14 AM 0 comments

Monday, May 21, 2007

Which dozen of empty stores and buidlings are you referring too?

Literally there are so many.

I lived a great deal of my life in New England and this is not even close to being comparable.

The comments by our Mayor are a matter of public record and it would prove interesting to see if they do and have affected the business friendly atmosphere, here.

The City of Toledo can be a very frustrating place, from inside and out. Getting attention from City Departments is often way to much work, considering it's a "Service" we pay for..and pay dearly at that. A lot of people have contacted me or left comments that ask how I went about my business with City hall.

To that end, I'm working up a full list of details and contacts that may help. untill I get it all down, here are some easy, no brainers that will help in the Municipal anals and the rest of life. Please feel free to add your most successfull tactics and we can all learn from eachother.

Toledo is an 88 sq mile city with no neighborhood untouched by the flaws that glare in the inner city. Even Ottowa hills has a few eyesores. By the numbers, the City feilds a 2500 complaint line...that's 2500 + complaints that must be handeled one way or another on a constant basis. Basicly, we function on a complaint driven infrastructure plan that is clearly failing. There's no noticible plan of action, it's scattered attention and murky planning that leave all of us wondering...Huh???...laf!

First of all, my complaints were not handeled instantly, it took a year, hundreds of emails and phone calls to everyone from the bottom of the ladder to the top. It took getting involved with Councilman Ashford and his crew, it took contacting every Council memnber and it took a radio apperance just to get it started. It took almost daily communication ,(including dozens of personal visits to the 22nd floor among others)with all of these people and it took a lot of time and perserverance, and a refusal to accept no for an answer. In their face , all the time..that's what I did then and am doing now.

I had to point out over and over again to anyone willing to listen the nature of the problem, the direction I wanted to solve it and the bennifit to them that would result from capitulation with me. I also had to point out very clearly that I was/am willing to go to the mat for what I believe to be the right thing and there would be no compromise on the substance. Show no fear or intimidation, don't get into loud or ugly conversations and always stick to the subject and the facts.

Research is key, do your homework. Have details and numbers, stats and a laundry list of pro/con reasons. Swamp them in details and keep it flowing non-stop! Eventually, fear and loathing will win and they will act.

I'm sure we've all heard the phrase " Ya catch more flies with Sugar than salt...don't be too mean or let the "tone" of your comments sound impish and entitled. Basicly, follow the golden rule, do unto others as you want done with you. Be direct, informed and persistant. Patience for the right time/place will help. Choose your battels wisely and don't sink to a leval of indignant. A smile and charm go a longggggggggggg way.

There's a quote that says the definition of "Experience" is this:

"Experience is what you get, when you don't get what you want".

Take the experience you have gained and put it to work for you. If you've gotten nowhere, a change in tactics is in order. Draw people together on your side and the win is in sight.

I've seen alot of it in Toledo. Quite alot particularly in politics. And in dialogue. I'm interested in debating people who are honestly debating. Not going back and changing their positions and then calling peoples' responses out when they changed what the people responded to.

Where did I say liar in this thread? I pointed out what I saw as a startling discrepancy. And was just wrong.

If you consider that immaturity - you're more than welcome to.

The post itself was made about recalling the Mayor - who I believe has not kept his campaign promises. I still have them - I've reviewed them recently. I'm interested in the recall process.

However if winding up with Rob Ludeman as the Mayor - no disrespect intended, I understand he's a very nice man but not the strong personality we would need to tackle the problems that we have.

Is there no other alternative?

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

"Government's job is to protect our freedoms and lives, do the jobs nobody else wants to do and are willing to pay taxes to get them done, and then get out of the way and let the free market work."

It is? Is that what they teach in civics class these days? Oh that's right, they don't teach civics anymore.

I will outline our mission and agenda:
Our mission

The Finkbeiner administration will unite and promote, in every way possible, a clean, green, and safe city with vibrant colors everywhere , a city that inspires our citizens to improve our neighborhoods, educate our children and create jobs that offer a future in their hometown.
\nTo accomplish our mission, we will:
1. Work with the University of Toledo, Bowling Green State University, Medical University of Ohio and Owens Community College to develop a “technology corridor,” creating the jobs of the future.
2. Develop the marina-housingrestaurant-entertainment project on the east side of the river that voters approved in September, 2001. The Marina District project will act as a complement to The
Docks, which we built in 1995.
3. Seek private-sector developers to build a new sports arena in the city.
4. Meet with the ownership of Southwyck Mall to forge a compact leading to a revitalized mall in 365 days.
5. Meet with the ownership and property owners in the Westgate-Cricket West district to define the future redevelopment of this area.
6. Nurture small-business development, and establish a 25-person business advisory council, consisting of our best and brightest small-business leaders, to advise the administration on how it can help business develop in our region and eliminate government obstacles. This advisory council will review council legislation passed during the last 25 years, and we will rescind any laws that
\nhave hampered job creation.
7. Work with Ann Arbor and Detroit public and private leaders to create an automotive R&D corridor linking our cities. The purpose , job creation.
8. Fill the vacancies and voids in the Central Business District with new entrepreneurs and businesses, using tax breaks and incentives..
9. Encourage and promote a regional government to include, city, county and suburban governments all under one roof, in as many ways as possible.
10. Establish a grass-roots neighborhood program, in which every neighborhood has representation in City Hall and will be involved in decisions impacting them. This will be modeled after the Dayton program.
11. Develop a "neighborhood pride" program to encourage home ownership, civic pride and urban beautification. This program will include neighborhood competition to honor outstanding efforts to improve properties.
12. Restore the urban beautification program on main streets and in city parks while expanding these efforts into neighborhoods. We will raise $250,000 annually from the private sector to accomplish this.
13. Revitalize the urban-blight program, and return the demolition program for blighted housing to 300 demolitions annually.
14. Commit to hiring more police officers, so Toledo will no longer have the fewest police per 1,000 residents of any major city in Ohio.
15. Will actively and personally work to restore the Erie Street Market as a centerpiece of downtown revitalization.
16. Implement a city Gateway project that will utilize the resources of the city as well as the private sector to improve the appearance of the main entrances to the city.
17. Increase emphasis on repairing potholes more swiftly and permanently.
18. Commit to prioritize city Capital Improvement dollars to resurface city streets, with a target of 40 miles per year.
19. Commit to return every phone call to citizens within 24 business hours, and respond to specific concerns within 7 business days.
20. Establish monthly "Meet the Mayor" nights that will rotate locations throughout the city.
21. Establish a City Hall mentoring program that will pair city officials with young people seeking such guidance.
22. Establish privately funded, summer youth-development programs in city parks.
23. Develop a summer-job program for high school students, working with the Chamber of Commerce.
24. Seek commitments from our local companies to hire college students as "interns" during the summer months.
25. Develop job training and retraining programs for the unemployed and underemployed while working with corporations, labor unions and our universities.
26. Work with public and private school leaders to assure that new and/or improved academic campuses become the stimulus that creates family oriented neighborhood living opportunities around the academic setting.
27. Encourage adaptive reuse of vacated school properties into neighborhood community centers.
28. Monitor the levy requests of TPS to assess that the taxpayer is getting his money's worth from their product.
29. Work with county officials, local civic leaders and regional organizations to seek ways to share resources, reduce costs and improve economic conditions in Northwest Ohio to the benefit of all.
30. Pursue further discussions on establishing a regional water/sewer authority to serve our area while ensuring Toledo residents a reasonable return on their infrastructure investments.
31. Will appoint a health and fitness honorary chairperson to promote a "healthier lifestyle" in Toledo.
32. Establish a courageous and boldcommittee to define how utility rates can be reduced in Northwest Ohio.
33. Restore the minority health commission to improve the life expectancy and general health of those
34. Seek "loaned leaders" from the business and union sectors to seek ways to reduce city costs and implement modern systems to promote increased productivity.
Toledo needs a leader who not only hears, but listens to, the voices echoing throughout the city. Toledo needs a leader who not only sees problems of joblessness and lost vision, but sees solutions involving the creation of jobs and growth. Toledo needs a leader who will awaken this city to the great dreams that helped turn this once-stagnant swamp into a jewel set along both shores of the Maumee River. And Toledo needs a pro-jobs, progrowth, pro-Toledo citizenry. It is a time for citizen/heroes. It is a time for each and every Toledoan to take up the cause of building a
better, stronger Toledo. With every Toledoan's help in this endeavor, I seek to be your Mayor , your leader.

If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

Contempt and loathing are no match for self preservation. Considering that more people show up for a 7-11 opening than they did to your lil meeting, I'd re-think your "Demands"

Perhaps the focus should be to demand that the Mayor replace some of his cabinet and advisory panel. Clearly he needs a set of people around him that are not skiddish about shuting down his less stellar ideas and keep him focused on the serious issues at hand.

The Mayor has some flaws, but he also had more than 60% of the popular vote and 25% of that will be hard to achieve. Simple fact, for 25% to reverse their decision, they have to admit failure in judgement and that's not so likely. You cannot toss the Mayor without the bulk of the citizens looking stupid!

Cobra's may be a dealy snake, but nothing stings like self incrimination.

The three cornerstones of modern direct democracy-initiative, referendum, and recall were products of the so-called Progressive or Populist Era in American politics. Between 1900 and 1925, citizens in many Western and Midwestern states incorporated the initiative,referendum, and recall into local and state law as a means of "reclaiming" political processes deemed to have been high-jacked by corrupt political and corporate officials. All three processes were designed to enable citizens to circulate petitions and, if sufficient signatures were gathered, to place questions directly before the voters.

Pros and Cons of Recall
Some of the most common criticisms of recall are as follows:

  • Because the election that follows a successful recall petition drive is a special election, the process can be costly for the government entity required to foot the bill.
  • The threat of recall may intimidate elected officials, thereby affecting their independence and the exercise of sound judgment on issues of public policy.
  • Recall can be used for retribution against public officials who make wise, yet politically unpopular, decisions.
  • Recall undermines representative government and destabilizes the political process by making them subject to the momentary whim of single-issue agitators.
  • When compared to term limits, however, the advantage of recall is obvious: Term limits sweep all elected off icials-good and bad-out of off ice; by using recall on the other hand, voters can target the "bad apples," while leaving the best representatives in office.
    I'm the guy doing my job. You must be the other one
  • If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth. ~Japanese Proverb

    So I take it you had a.. uhh.. less than stellar turnout at your meeting?

    I'm sure if it went as well as you predicted ("It WILL happen") we'd all be hearing about it today...

    Shane - getting in a pissin' contest with a 21yr old kid? How suave of you.

    I was just thinking: who would the people on the forum like to see as mayor? Any suggestions? And what are the qualifications we are looking for, and who displays them? I know Chad has thought about putting himself in for the job, but has anyone else got ideas? And (contrary to above title) do we have any women who are interested (and display talent) in the job? And let's not limit ourselves to mayor. If the city goes back to a city manager-style government who would we like to see in that position. I was looking back through the old articles in The Blade from before the election.

    One of the reasons people got interested in a mayoral form of government was that the city manager began to get involved in politics (rather than be above the fray). So just because we have a city manager doesn't mean we'll get the best "professional" in the position. Although, it will be easier to remove him (no recall required).

    Old South End Broadway

    Maggie, one of the nice things about the Main Library is the Local History Department. I went there to find out how the recent change to mayor occurred. I spent a couple of afternoons looking through old clippings from The Blade.

    The newspaper may be getting a bad rap from people on this forum, but it is about the only source I can find for information about local politics (that views it from its then current perspective). I wish The Blade would take their old files, and start putting them on the net.

    It hasn't happened yet, but if you have the patience you can go through old newspapers on microfilm. And some member(s) of the library's staff took the time (and patience) to do clippings on various topics (such as the efforts to go from city manager to mayor). I found about 40 entries from The Blade dealing with this struggle from 1988 until the effort succeeded this last time.

    This is not something in a vacuum. I even thought about scanning these clippings to my blog (but that might violate copywrite restrictions). Anyways the effort to go from city manager to mayor, and back again has occurred quite often in the city

    Old South End Broadway

    I've made a choice in the re-call effort and I encourage everyone to read my reasons and then act as I have to give Toledo a choice.

    The following is a series of Blade articles detailing a history of the modern

    Old South End Broadway

    I don't know if this "recall" petition will work, or even if it has any value. At the beginning of this post it was stated that Rob Ludeman would replace Carty. Won't this recall go on the ballot about the same time that Ludeman runs out his term. He will leave office in January, correct? Who has expressed interest in running for mayor, and what kind of personalities do they have? Would we replace Carty with someone even more off-the-wall? Maybe I will stay with "the devil I know" unless someone can show me we will get someone more "reasoned" to take the job?

    Old South End Broadway

    name somebody more off the wall.

    Is there "evil" in an earthquake, a hurricane, or a tornado? And yet these do damage. Do we need to look for evil or can we realize that even the "foolish" can do harm. Witness what happened when rabbits were brought to Australia for a "little bit of the English countryside".

    Old South End Broadway

    But he is a Republican. What would a city council look like with members who would accept Sarantou

    Old South End Broadway

    James, This Is Easily Said,Less easily done. The political "animal" has a long memory, and voting out old faces for new (if I remember history correctly) can also be disastrous. If I remember from my history the "French Revolution" brought a lot of "new faces" into politics, and, eventually, to baskets below the guillotine.

    I don't think a new mayor is going to get much done without a council in which the majority of councilman can either be convinced of his positions, or he becomes a "rubber stamp" for their collective opinion.

    I doubt there has been a mayor who hasn’t had an opposition (and even those without opposition eventually grown old in office, and die). So unless you can come up with something more substantive than "get rid of Czarty" I can't really take that position seriously.

    Old South End Broadway

    Dump C, vote in S, S can't work with council, get rid of S...and "on and on it goes, where it stops nooobody knows".

    Old South End Broadway

    ...If Carty is recalled, he loses his office the day the votes are certified - which is usually the end of November. Ludeman would still be the president of Council (until Dec. 31st), so, according to the Charter, he becomes the new mayor. He gives up his seat on council and, in taking the mayor's office, I believe he serves until the end of the mayoral term. The fact that he is term limited for a council seat does not impact his ability to assume the position of mayor and fulfill the mayor's term when the mayor cannot.

    So, the question is this - who will council elect as president if it appears that the recall effort is going to be successful? The recent non-public meeting of elected Dems with their state party chairman was supposed to help 'heal the wounds' of the a/b team split. Will they come together to ensure that a Dem succeeds a Dem when it comes to the mayor of the city? Will 2008 be an issue in their decision - holding a key area for the Dems to ensure strong party support for a presidential candidate?

    And, with the choice having to be a current council member (only a current member can be elected president of council) who will be the one who gets majority support?

    If they're smart..they will elect Joe M.

    still votes, and considers McNamara an ass. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the votes to get the position, but many people sit back, and watch a do-nothing council that seems to engage in confrontation and little else. Other people like the fireworks, though. So it depends on who votes, and who doesn't, I guess.

    Old South End Broadway

    Michael Ashford is not the person we, the people want as Council Prez. I ;live in his district, and getting his attention requires it to be a flashpoint against the Mayor. He's a politician, in the worst sense of the word. So be sure and write your councilperson and tell them.."No on Ashford!"

    can he work with the council as it is now constituted? Does he have a temper like Carty, does he delegate, and is he likely to put himself in the center of negotiations (that seems to be a lot of the complaints about Carty)? Will he be the "royal" mayor who sits on his throne, and does little but take credit? Maybe we need a "do nothing" mayor.

    Old South End Broadway


    I think the Dem's will want a Dem, but what is Czarty? He's really a Republican anyway. Well, so what if Ludeman is a Republican. Czarty started out as a Republican. He couldn't get elected to some offices so he became an independent and later on he declared himself a Democrat just to get elected. I have worked with Czarty and he is a Conservative Democrat/Moderate Republican. Czarty has at least twenty different faces. I would like to claim he has multiple personalities but instead I'll call him multi-dimensional. In my opinion he could be a poster child for Zoloft. Did you know that it is rumored Czarty is a member of every major Black Church in Toledo? Why? So he can claim he supports Black people and get their vote and make them think they are going to get support from him. Czarty is a politician in the classical sense. Smoke filled rooms and deals with everybody and against everybody. We need to recall Czarty. This type of politician is a dinosaur. Toledo is falling apart and we can slow it down and stop it when we get him out of office this Fall.

    no one who knows the goings on in the Dem party is contributing. So we are depending on Maggie for insight. And she is reaching her limit, I think. So if Ludeman isn't in the running then who will it be? I wonder what kind of "deals" will have to be made to get a new mayor if Carty is recalled. Not likely we'll be lucky to get the equivalent of an Ahhrnold S (don't want to take the chance on misspelling). Maybe we would get Jack Ford back again.

    Old South End Broadway

    if the Democrats chose among themselves they would have at least two options: 1. chose someone without the ambition (and hope he doesn't catch fire) to be in office beyond the end of his term; 2. pick someone who really wants the job, and be prepared to deal with his incumbency in the next election.

    Old South End Broadway

    I imagine will have to be replaced on council. Does that mean another special election, or could someone just chose a new member of council to replace whoever is chosen as mayor?

    Old South End Broadway

    Last night the news media reported that the people in East Toledo who attended Czarty's Town Hall Meeting said they were very pleased with Czarty's performance. Am I missing something or are the people in East Toledo even aware that a recall effort is in progress.

    "Preformance" in theater

    The mayor left 10 minutes before 7 pm before any real questions were asked. He left Reinbolt to do his bidding. Carty didn't do much talking either. Larry Dillon talked about the Marina District and then he had directors fielding questions. Most questions concerned the pond and train whistles before he left. The only tough question was why are you knocking the Sports Arena down so quick and he said the Storm didn't want to play the 07-08 season in anticipation for the season in the new arena. I know some people involved w/the Storm organization and didn't get the feeling that the Storm wanted to get out so quickly.

    He left at 6:50 because he'd promised the media a statement on the Nazi's at 6:45.

    He came back into the building and talked with a man whose home was damaged in the early June floods and felt that he'd been ignored by the city. This happened outside.

    He then came into the hall with the man at about 7:05 and introduced him to the Director of Public Utilities. They talked in the back of the room until about 7:25. He and I discussed a couple things in the back of the room and he departed at 7:30. The meeting was only scheduled to last until 7:00, but we ran long to get through the whole list of questions.

    He didn't answer questions about Hecklinger Pond because he has no expertise in water pollutants or silt pollutants. He let a person who did answer the questions.

    The idea of a town hall meeting is not to put the mayor on the spot -- and most people understand this. It is to get answers to questions. That is why the entire city of Toledo executive management team is required to participate -- to lend their expertise to citizens to answer those questions.

    I know the few Carty detractors out there were disappointed with the civil tone and incisive (as opposed to hostile) questions that were asked last night, but that is more reflective of reality than the zealotry exhibited by some on this board.

    In the interest of full disclosure, this post comes from my city computer after business hours. I'm working late.

    But of course, Mr. Schwartz, you know and realize that the Mayor is a public person and he is in a political position and the buck stops with him and the public and people on this board view it as that.

    Commenting about a Mayor, City Council member and so and so forth are the bread and butter of discussion in America and will continue to be so when we all are long gone.

    It's nothing personal but you know that, so your vain attempts to portray the citizens and the comments by citizens on a publicly accessible internet resource is really quite insipid.

    So the people who were at the other Town Hall meetings who chose to ask the TOUGH questions are zealouts now?


    Not disappointed at all but rather shocked that Carty didn't loose his cool..... He must have taken his meds Monday. Keep on him - it's less embarrassing for Toledo when he pops his bi-polar pills

    Now Carty was the "quiet" Carty, and some people didn't like that. If he involves himself he screws things up, and if he doesn't he's not doing his job. Boy, running a business must be better than political life.

    Old South End Broadway

    OldSouth, if you are referring to my post, please re-read. I am not disappointed with a civil tone as Mr. Schwartz said, but rather happy. Let's keep Carty in that civil tone- it's good for everyone. It might be less entertaining, but that's a good thing - leave the entertainment to the private sector.

    but there are others who damn Carty when he engages in negotiations, and then damn him when he sits back and let the bureaucracy do its work. Maybe we will be better off with a city manager. But I bet there will be the same (or similar) complaints in two or three years after we get one back.

    Old South End Broadway

    We get our signatures, we vote to kick him out with a simple majority in November, President of City Council takes over. From what I understand, the president of city council can be voted in or out at anytime Council pleases. Being that Council has Democrat majority, Ludeman probably won't keep that position long.

    And I'm not so certain all the intentions here are "good."

    I'm working with experienced people and we have been planning since the beginning of April. I don't want to say too much, but this effort will be drastically different from the others. Did you know the Mayor has had a recall effort against him twice before? The most notable,, met on a Friday, launched on a Monday. Proper prior planning and preparation prevents poor performance.

    There is no doubt in my mind that these politicians would be very wary of what they do after they see that Toledo is sick of their Mayor. I'm sure they would be watching their steps.

    To me, this effort is well worth the risk. We've got to do something before we really hit rock bottom hard.

    I honestly believe if we let Carty finish his term in office - 2 and a half more years - Toledo will have hit rock bottom - and who would want to lead that mess? This recall will show Toledo does care what happens and that we deserve better.

    The people elected the mayor, city council, and the school board. The Toledo voters voted to look foolish. PERIOD. Unless one of elected breaks the law, you're stuck with them until the next election. To simiply recall based on political perspective is even more foolish in the long run.

    Thomas, you're 21. Toledo can survive til the next election. Perhaps now you'll encourage more to vote.

    How business friendly is Toledo?

    Taking over 40% of an industry, publicly embarrassing hotel managers, not having any business experience while being the economic director really doesn't help the situation.

    Actually, Mayor Finkbeiner has been elected 3 times. But why should the voters be the blame for the Mayor's out of control spending, tax raising, and free market interference in this term?

    And Maggie is right - Council is not helping.

    And to keep on that theme.. well.. thomas, "Some men you just can't reach"...

    It's clear by now that I think your plan, Thomas, is:

    1. Foolish
    2. A waste of time
    3. Destined to bear no fruit
    4. Not what Toledo needs
    5. Lacking of any real novel idea that can be sold to the electorate about why this will actually change toledo for the better outside of getting rid of a guy you just don't like.

    However, here's some sincere and good advice:

    If you want even a chance, even a hint of a chance, you better do one thing:

    Make this as transparent as possible. Thomas? Thomas who? Who are you? What is your biograhphy? Who are your cohorts? What are their stories?

    To me (and I'm going to guess MANY toledoans) this is going to seem just a little too politically expedient. That you or your colleagues either just don't like Carty or have political ambition yourself.

    Without transparency, this really is a DOA.

    I don't mean to come across as dissuading Thomas, I just have the feeling that beyond a few supporters who I have heard on WSPD that there is not a firm foundation in this recall attempt that is different than any of the other past recall attempts for both Carty and Jack. The number one statement I have heard from people when this has been brought up is that Carty despite evoking strong emotions in some people, has not done anything at a severe enough level to demand a recall.

    Your questions are very good ones and I'd also be interested in the answers.

    We don't remember days only moments...

    Yes, I've been critical of Thomas and his plan because I think it's NO GOOD FOR TOLEDO.

    And I think most people will be skeptical about this.

    So I ask once more:

    GIVE ME YOUR IDEAS. You want carty out? Don't tell me it's because of the things he's done (Boo Hoo Hoo, Recall him because he built a f'in shower). Tell me you want Carty out because there are GOOD IDEAS from COMPETENT LEADERS that AREN'T BEING HEARD or AREN'T BEING IMPLEMENTED.

    You're suggesting, thomas, a radical action. A rare but important power of the citizenry be invoked to change our lives for the better.

    But all you can seem to say when asked "why" is all the things that Carty did that you just don't like. How is that possibly going to make toledo better?

    Well Kooz, apparently I did not realize I was dealing with the lowest common denominator here. You see, we have this thing called a government. For the most part, the people who serve in government are elected by the majority of the people, unless there are laws that state otherwise. Additionally, the legislative branch of the government creates laws. The legislative branch of the toledo city government is city council. City council, at some point in the past, created a law which allows for a community recall of the mayor. While I'm not certain of the particulars of the law, I'm fairly certain there doesn't need to be any reason given for such a recall. You see, if the law allows it, then it is valid. While I don't think Thomas will succeed with his movement, to say that a reason is required and then to diminish democratic principles as you have raises serious questions about any legitimacy you bring to the table.

    ...dictates the process. If the mayor is recalled, then the president of council becomes the mayor. Vacancies that are the result of a recall are filled like any other vacancy.

    Having someone willing to run and supportive of the recall doesn't really impact the outcome. If you've got someone ready and willing to run, they should be actively campaigning - presenting alternative ideas, taking stands on various issues, providing comment before council, writing op-ed pieces - right now...building their support and showing that there are other options than what Carty is presenting. And it can be done in such a way as to be 'polite' without being the start of a multi-year campaign...

    That's about the level of maturity that I've come to expect from you kate.

    I didn't go back and change any of my old posts. I did write a couple new ones, though.

    You might want to check again, Katie.

    I'll be expecting your apology as soon as you get your foot out of your mouth.

    I am going to be on Fred L's show on WSPD tomorrow morning on WSPD @7:30 am. I'm in touch with reality and I understand there is a risk of failure, but it's something worth trying. We are about recalling the Mayor. There is enough brain power in this city to figure out what is next. One thing at a time.

    One question... is Shane a democrat or something?

    If you want more details email me @

    Good luck with your business.

    But.. But.. But.. ..Carty built a shower?!?!

    I'm not a "green thumb", but both my younger brother and mother garden. They felt that the city would have gotten a cheaper deal in the long run if they had planted bulbs (perennials) rather than plants that require replanting every year. I suppose that the greatest cost is in manpower so I don't know. Would it have been cheaper to use perennials, or would the manpower costs be pretty much the same either way. Is this just a "lucky break" for some middle-class landscaper/business man who got the contract, or a real value for the city?

    Old South End Broadway

    Where ever you decide to hit reply indicates where your post will go and has no bearing on the time. It's not like Toledo Talk where the posts go in order of time. I could post a reply to the very first comment and it would show up there rather than at the bottom.

    Frankly it's one of the things I don't like about Swamp Bubbles as it makes it very difficult to follow a thread with a great deal of discussion since you have to basically re-check thru the whole thread to see who is marked as "new".

    Yes, it appears it's related to where you hit reply given that I just posted a test response towards the very beginning of this thread...

    We don't remember days only moments...

    pretend I'm not here...


    We don't remember days only moments...

    Now you've got BOTH FEET in your mouth!

    This is fantastic.

    I love it when you get so rabid to prove me wrong that you end up making yourself look like a total dumbass. You did it before in the "Weak Dollar" thread. After I smacked you down like so many fat men smacking the gnat in their potato salad, you just avoided the thread. This time, though, you couldn't resist.

    Unfortunately for you it just underscores my original point: this is about the level of maturity that I've come to expect from you.

    Your sleuthing skills need some work, Katie, but I'm flattered that you care so much about me to be checking timestamps and all, despite the fact that you're entirely wrong. :)

    Say what you want about being business friendly, but the "Pharmacy Wars" that have left us with dozens of ugly abandoned boxes littered throughout the city haven't done us any good as citizens.

    Last election cycle I worked for a Prez campaign and I spent most my time in New Hampshire, split between Manchester and the Upper Valley. Manchester is about the size of Toledo but is a cut above our fair city in nearly every way I could measure.

    One of the most striking things was the prevalence of SMALL, LOCAL business and the relative absence (compared to Toledo) of national chains and the ugly buildings they often erect.

    bathroom politics is for the crapper.... No positive change results from 2 negitives

    "I still have them - I've reviewed them recently. I'm interested in the recall process."

    Please, can you remind me of them. I know one, more of a slogan, Was Carty Gets Results.

    Well, I don't think they it was a DECLARED war. More a... uhh.. Police Action ;)

    ... I'm actually talking about the period, oh, between 4 and 9 years ago when you could throw a spitball behind your head and have a 80% chance of hitting a Rite Aid, Revco, CVS, or Walgreens. Or all 4.

    Now we're left with a bevy of empty stores that are too small for grocery and retail and too large for small businesses.

    Amen Junta!!!!!!

    Why does his age matter? ... And I think he'd be a little unappreciative at being labeled a "kid," and at the notion that he can't hold his own every bit as well as anyone else here.

    This is the same subtle age discrimination and back-handedness that I complained about before and other dismissed as all part of my imagination.

    This is kind of in the past. I live in the area, and I did feel a twinge of regret when the old buildings (that were "old" when I was young) were torn down to make way for the new. But that is part of life.

    I do regret seeing the "old" Rite-Aide sitting empty on Broadway. I do see work being done on the property occasionally. It might well be a "white elephant". I went on AREIS ("google" it), and found that the property at 1715 Broadway (now owned by another "entity") is treated as two "properties" for tax purposes by the county. The building and property is values at $320,400, and brings in $14.02 in property taxes for each half year.

    The remainder of the "property" is mostly the parking lot, and brings in $349.61 a half year. It is .138 acres. It is valued at $18,500 (I guess because of the parking lot). There is a nice picture of it when it was a "Rite-Aid" (or at least the signage labelled it as such).

    There is an empty lot over at 438 Langdon (about two blocks from it), and is smaller. It's valued at $2,500. That guy pays $300.36 for .110 acres.

    So I don't really see how "businesses" are getting the shaft as far as real estate taxes are concerned. There are probably other things I am not taking into consideration though.

    Old South End Broadway

    ...lives in Toledo - or even the county - since he took a job with Perrysburg, but I've always thought so very highly of John Alexander. I still think he'd make a great mayor. He used to be Carty's chief of staff during the first term in office...then he was the County Administrator until Pete Gerken got elected and he and Tina Skeldon Wozniak decided he had to go (and be replaced by Mike Beazley).

    He is professional, focused on the 'business of the government,' makes excellent decisions, surrounds himself with good people, knows how to develop talent...I can't say enough good about him.

    And I know he knows how to sell a community - just look at the impact of his involvement with Owens Illinois (I saw the proposal he did for Perrysburg versus the 2-page letter Toledo sent), not to mention all the good things he's continued since taking the position in 2005.

    He's a good man, a good administrator and would make a great mayor - especially considering the two people who've held the position since 1993...

    ...that John Alexander would want to leave his current position. He's got a really nice position with people who truly appreciate him! But since you asked about the 'type' of people we'd want to see, he's the 'type.'

    As for the history, I remember some of it, but you're right about the Library's resources and the staff - they're terrific! I think that having old files from the Blade on the internet would also be a good thing. I know that if you search their archives, at some point, they begin to charge for the older stories.

    Opal Covey

    Your assessment is correct. There is no evil in these natural events, but they will do damage. I also agree that the foolish can cause much damage as well, unintentionally. A foolish person I can tolerate much better than someone who I feel is trying to intentionally send me to the gas chambers. I don't know details about what Czarty's agenda is, but whatever it is, it doesn't appear the agenda benefits the citizens of Toledo. I'll take my chances with Ludeman or whoever else may be Czarty's replacement. I have a pretty good sense that Czarty needs to be escorted out the door before we all go down the tubes.

    Donna Owen was a Republican on and for a while we all loved her. I think George Sarantu is a business man and he would run Toledo like a business. Lets forget about what political party he belongs to, we need good, fair leaders. What we don't need is Czarty.

    We knew what the old Czarty was like and we didn't like it. Czarty got elected again saying he was the new Czarty. Well the new Czarty is the same old Czarty. He lied to us and we fell for it. At this point I prefer the unknown rather than Czarty. When Carty's out someone will replace him. If that someone doesn't work out we'll replace him. I am very acquainted with the French Revolution and the most ironic player in my judgment was Maximilian Robespierre. We'll probably have someone like him along the way also.

    If there enough people out there that feel strongly about removing the mayor, then this is a valid cause.

    Theyre half way there. Junta, would you say that if Ten Thousand people feel strongly enough that's valid? they have more than ten thousand signatures now.

    I wonder if either you or one of his other apologists can explain why Carty felt the need to increase the number of signatures necessary for a recall - in a city where the population has been decreasing for years??? If a population is decreasing wouldnt that in and of itself make a recall more difficult? Why would Carty need to cover his ass with a writ that upped the ante it takes to boot him out?? Maybe he got it from an old dukes of hazzard rerun, seeing as how he's pretty much modeled himself after Boss Hogg.

    I wont hold my breath for an answer to my question, Ive asked before and been answered with an eerie silence.

    "The recent non-public meeting of elected Dems with their state party chairman was supposed to help 'heal the wounds' of the a/b team split."

    I am not clear on the public nature of a meeting of people in this case, elected officials, that was not dealing with public matters but internal matters.

    Having the meeting open to the public would have helped or was required? that he can work with council, as he obviously does so now. He doesn't have a temper like Carty...he's a very steady individual with a reputation for working hard without grandstanding.

    I don't know his management style, as I've never experienced it. But I know he's not likely to 'sit on his throne and do little but take credit.'

    I don't believe that the Dems will let him become mayor. They'd rather have a D in the position...and this may unite the a/b teams - at least for this particular issue...I think their position will be: better a member of the opposite Democrat Team, than a republican!

    ...selects a district rep to be the new president (and then the mayor if the recall goes through), there is a special election to the fill the vacancy, unless there is already an election scheduled between 45 and 180 days after the vacancy occurs.

    If council selects an at-large rep, then council fills the vacancy until the next general election that happens at least 90 days later...

    "Am I missing something or are the people in East Toledo even aware that a recall effort is in progress."

    They are probably feeling the same way I do. I am aware of the recall effort but I don't care. Because I have yet to see someone in any facet of Toledo government I'd consider worthy of the post.

    Anyone you replace him with will be equally as bad.

    What Toledo needs is a new type of politician who doesn't bow to inter-party debates and union and/or blade bullying.



    I'm a 21 year old UT student. I see my city shrinkning - 11th fastest in the country, I see my city doing plain awful. I've lived here 21 years, and if i can do anything about it, I will. And this is it.

    Who is a better choice?

    You'd have more luck trying to change the Mayoral primary rules to prevent a Dumb vs Dumber matchup.



    With all due respect - I don't want to come across as an arrogant college kid - but what is wrong is wrong. This has nothing to do with politics, it has everything to do with what is principled and best for Toledo.

    Those who voted and those who decided to sit home and not vote. They had selections in the primary and then between Jack Ford or Carty Finkbeiner.

    It's also very much City Council as well, even with a strong mayor form of government, there is still a balance of power and without Council approval the Mayor, even as a strong mayor is still limited.

    The real key to changing things is to encourage/support qualified people to run for office and seriously increase the amount of information voters have. When you stop to realize the percentage of people as one example, that thought that Phil Copeland was his deceased uncle, Bill Copeland, it's clear where some of the problems in our area lies...

    We don't remember days only moments...

    Oh cry me a river over the "[embarrassed] hotel managers." Do you think somebody said "Well, That toledo, gee... I was going to invest millions but now that their Mayor called-out a hotel over a shoddy facility and poor service, I'm gonna invest in some other city instead."

    Puh-leese. That incident is just another piece of anecdotal BS. A red herring.

    Like it or not, the owners of that hotel made choices. After all, most here champion business rights. This, dear readers, is a lesson in business RESPONSIBILITY that goes along with those rights.

    The manager there had a novel idea. They could save a lot of money by deciding against buying into a national nameplate with the marketing and cachet it provides. Instead, they thought, they could capitalize on a local brand name, Seagate. Combined with the fact that it's connected to the convention center of the exact same name, most people inside toledo and out can understandably assume that the business is, in fact, associated with the center.

    So these business owners have cashed-in on a "brand name" that's owned in a roundabout way by the citizens. A brand name that no-doubt goes a long way attracting business.

    Well, by maintaining the facility in the state of disrepair and providing horrible service, by virtue of the brand name that they're cashing in on, that reflects poorly upon the manager/etc who chose toledo for her companies convention, the convention centre itself, and the city at large.

    They took the right to name their business as they please, to ride on the coattails of the well-run convention centre. Now they have to face the responsibility that such unearned success requires. And by doing it publicly, it communicated loud and clear to everyone that the hotel is not, in fact, affiliated in any way.

    Besides, didn't a magazine just name toledo as the most business friendly mid-sized city in North America? .... of course, I'm sure you're infinitely more qualified to make a judgment to the contrary. Riiiight.

    "...not having any business experience while being the economic director really doesn't help the situation."

    Ya know, funny you say that. I just came back from a meeting in Columbus this weekend with a major player in the Biotechnology community, out of nowhere the man started talking about how he's seeing a Toledo city that is turning around and that we had an excellent economic directory taking the lead.

    Not saying that he is or isn't, but it appears people from the outside thinks he's great.

    Recalls for political reasons are tough because it makes the voters appear to be dumb asses, that they are too stupid when they vote and now need another shot at it. Throw in the national media and voters would rather wait it out to the next election to see if they improve on their decision making abilities.

    Again, getting a majority of voters to publicly state they screwed up and need to take a "Muligan" vote in front of national media is a tough sell.

    Let the system work it's way. Both Carty, Ford, School Board, and City Council have laid groundwork on "elements" of what the Toledo voters don't want, thus making the next leaders that much better.

    Perhaps with your passion for community you look at joining a political organization (preferably Republican to get Shane worked up), getting networked into political / business leaders & supporters, and pour your energy into the next election. Take the next 2 years to get good, real good. The timing will be good to go with the next presidential election. Perhaps your goal would be to work on the next mayor's campaign or become a delegate in the national election to further your networking.

    Learn and do as much as possible on your journey. All the best Thomas!

    This has been my point all along. Recalling Carty because you just don't like the guy is not good for Toledo. Personally, I think a recall, period, is not good for toledo, but if you're going to do it, do it because there are good ideas, great leaders and engaged and talented people who can offer something to the debate.

    All I've said all along is making laundry lists of things Carty has done is both dumb and not likely to work. But give me some IDEAS. Give citizens "cover." Let them say "I liked carty, but THIS GUY, he's got it going on..."


    Oh god yes!

    I'm flattered that you're able to see that I'm clearly on the side of "good."

    Along with about 90% of the city of Toledo, I stand on the left side of the political spectrum.

    Amen Chad,

    Shane & SensorG eventhough I disagree on most of your points - I love reading them, you do make me laugh!

    Kate You're smart, dedicated, involved, and you care about everything to the highest level. Have some fun, Lighten up, Find the Good!

    Maggie - You're one well spoken lady! Educated and likes the classic cartoons! Stupendous!

    Guest Zero is simply priceless. He can take a thought to a different level.

    Billy, Mikey, HeyHey, Mholdri - It's nice to read about conservatives. You guys are on the money!

    Chris & SFlagg - Everything I wanted to know about the Schoolboard and then some. Keep it up. Good luck on your election Chris!

    OldSouthEnd - Man has some heart, wisdom, and experience.

    Neighborhood and LisaRene are like research wizards on city / state code.

    Mom2 and HandBanana can tell you a whole lot about healthcare.

    The list goes on from Pete, Junta, MadJack, etc... - All good!!

    Thomas - Again, I admire the passion - just wish you put Toledo over Carty. National media spotlight on how screwed up Toledo is, does not make a great place to attract new business. Perhaps you organize pressure on City Council to contain their spending and focus Carty's energy. Probably do more good, then going nuclear.

    All and all it's like the Star War's Bar Scene! Good Times, Good Times!

    I'm done with the soap box - who's next!

    Rock bottom has already been hit and we've been sinking for 14 years into the sand! Carty and Ford are not personally responsible, they are mear representations of the mass numbskull thinking that is very present in a city with a less than stellar turn out at the polls! If we stop acting like sheep in a feild, and go out from our comfort zone, register and VOTE.... perhaps the outcome will change. Problem is Toledoans have either allowed or contributed to the nightmare by lack of votes or lack of common sense.

    ...labor would have been cheaper with perennials because they only have to be planted once - versus planting each year with annuals.

    But if the choice is plants or a new police car, which has the higher priority???? This is the type of question I'd like the Mayor and City Council members to ask. point out someone else's error. It's another to rub their face in it, especially when lecturing them about their 'level of maturity.'

    so what..stupid action is not uncommon in people of power and politics. If his bathroom is the largerst problem you see, then you need a

    And having retail stores open and allow the supply and demand to take place is a bad thing?

    Or is better or more business friendly for a Mayor to proclaim that stores not to his liking are not allowed?

    Revo and Cvs are gone and in some of the same properties are now operating businesses.

    And then again we have vacant food stores, so I guess food stores are bad too as there are too many of them.

    Is the Mayor's job to promote the city or turn away businesses that want to set up shop here.

    That is the fundamental question.

    And he did not want Westgate renovated.

    The whole slogan shows that the Mayor has no concept of government's purpose. Government's job is to protect our freedoms and lives, do the jobs nobody else wants to do and are willing to pay taxes to get them done, and then get out of the way and let the free market work.

    Well, that's one name. Your comment gives me some interest in the man. And if the city government goes back to a city manager he might be considered for that.

    I wonder if there would be a requirement that the city manager live in the city. We are talking about a professional position that would carry out the dictates of council (I assume), and try to get things done. So I don't see why it would be a requirement that he live within the boundaries of the city as long as he worked in the best interests of the city.

    Old South End Broadway

    At this time she would be a better choice than Czarty. She may be eccentric, but I didn't detect any evil in her soul. How about Sarantu. If he were a Democrat they probably would support him for Mayor.

    Opal's no more a serious contendant than Ed Emory is. All political venues on all levels have their share of loon's floating around the edges. was a descriptive term, not a commentary...wasn't sure how to describe their meeting so people knew which one I was referring to...guess I should have just provided the link to avoid such an issue...

    James I don't really mean to come off so cynical but I find myself more and more moving that way.

    I grew up over half of my life in Toledo and the other half was mostly living in Maumee. I had a friend in Maumee once say to me "How can you expect Toledoans to be smart enough to pick better leaders when they're not even smart enough to move from Toledo?"

    At the time I was pretty annoyed by that. But I have to be honest I think there's a part of that statement which is partly true.



    That is the reason we are for Dave Schulz and Toledo COBRA 100%. With a city manager form of government, we would have a layer of fiscal responsibility between the politicians and the cash drawer. Less power for any government official, no matter which party, is always a good thing. If we keep the same strong mayor form of government, and recall the mayor, we could still end up with a Carty-like figure or worse.

    Who the hell of any quality is going to run for public office in this town? I wouldn't. The Blade has skewered too many good people and muck-raked too many reputations. There's a long list of people who have left or been driven out by the paper.

    This recall is going to happen for all the right reasons. I would not be doing this if it was not right. The Mayor is out of control. It is true that voters and City Council have a part in the position Toledo is, but when someone like Mayor Finkbeiner is anti-business, anti-fiscal responsibility, pro-punishing us with taxes for his mistakes, and anti-1st amendment while describing it as "civil disobdience," I will not sit by and do nothing. I hold on to principles, not politics, and Mayor Finkbeiner needs to be recalled. If I'm the only one who believes that what is going on on the 22nd floor of One Government Center is wrong, then so be it. I will not be silent, and anyone who cares about principles and Toledo, and is willing to help me, I will gladly accept everything they can offer.

    Tom Morrissey
    Recall Carty

    You think recalling carty will change any of that?

    All you'll be doing is wasting your time.

    A recall won't happen. It's DOA.

    I'm all for democracy in action. Go for it. Good luck.

    You're gonna need it.

    "Oh cry me a river over the "[embarrassed] hotel managers." Do you think somebody said "Well, That toledo, gee... I was going to invest millions but now that their Mayor called-out a hotel over a shoddy facility and poor service, I'm gonna invest in some other city instead."

    The Mayor hired a Perrysburg firm to play hotel inspector. When he found out about

    one problem, he ran down there with tv cameras and all for what reason? Do we


    want business Downtown? That one singular thing might not turn investors away, but

    add it on to taking over 40% of the ambulance business... and you have something.

    "Besides, didn't a magazine just name Toledo as the most business friendly mid-sized city in North America?"

    I am certainly pro- Toledo. I love this city, but we have to be intellectually honest here and

    reason that we could be doing much better. We have great potential but we aren't living up to it.

    Some unknown foreign magazine who we never heard of until the mayor spoke about it named Toledo

    business friendly....after taking over private business - 40%? business friendly by no means.

    With all due respect - murder is wrong. rape is wrong. charity is right. these are morals. Bike paths and Showers and Lighting are POLITICAL issues, not MORAL issues. It's not "right and wrong" it's YOUR OPINION ONLY.

    I have a lot of Republican friends. There's nothing wrong with Republicans.

    It's the fringe republicans that I have a problem with.


    90% of the city of Toledo does NOT stand on the left side of the political spectrum. In fact, the majority of them, while registered as Democrats, are considerable more fiscal conservatives than the Democrat party in general. If this were not true, no Republican would ever get elected.

    in general, Toledoans are fiscally conservative, socially liberal but very much independent when it comes to politics - they gladly cross party lines to support people they matter what their parties or unions 'recommend.'

    ...and I'd agree with your assessments of us...of course, you're the one with common sense often mixed with humor - very enjoyable!

    It's one thing to accuse somebody of changing old posts to make themselves look better. It's another to call them a liar when they tell you that you are, in fact, wrong. Dontcha think?

    On average, a total bathroom makeover runs between $5000.00 and $15,000.00 dollars. Ever priced a good tub or sink? how about shower fixtures? Kitchen remodels run between $10,000.00 and $30,000.00 depending on what you install. It makes fiscal sense to install quality materials considering how often a gov building gets any work. After all, the mayoral bathroom will be there for ever, vs. the Mayor himself.

    On a side note, I've personally seen the Mayor's office and from my "designer" point fo view...I woulda done more than a bathroom if it were my office. Why do people think it strange or selfish that the Mayor had the bathroom re-done? If I had to live in that 70's 80's enviorment, I'd be out of ideas and drive myself. Frankly, it needs a makeover from the reception area to the closets and to invite people of standing to that current Enviorment shows a lack of progress that extends to the cafiteriea.

    [I was being sarcastic. The bathroom remodel was on Thomas' list of reasons of why carty must be stopped] just fyi..


    My personal motto: If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

    If you're here to tell me it's my fault - you're right. I meant to do it. It was alot of fun. That's why I have this happy smile on my face.

    There are a lot of regions/states/cities in this country (Many, yes, in New England) that seem to do just fine with their building codes. Even locally, Maumee has codes governing the appearance, landscaping, and placement of businesses. They seem to be doing just fine despite this.

    I have no problem with Dave nor do I have a problem with Cobra.

    I do have a problem with the City Manager form of government. It wasn't better than the strong mayor system. In fact it was much worse. Under the city manager form the responsibility was passed from one to another and it was easy for a council member or mayor or manager to inherently do nothing.

    In fact look at the last years of the city manager gov't. What was passed? Portside. That's about all I can think of. At least under the strong mayor with every Steam plant and Marina District we at least were able to keep jeep and get 5/3rd field.

    However if we change the primary system to allow for more candidates to make it into the general election then we could be faced with better options at the polls.

    I don't see how returning to a form of government that encouraged less responsibility and recalling a mayor helps that.

    But I again say if not Carty, Who? If you intend to recall Carty who do you expect we put in? Jack Ford? Ray Kest? I don't think they would do a better job.



    I don't think that Dave or COBRA has any involvement with this attempt to recall Carty as Mayor. The way you phrased that could give the impression that the two are connected. If I'm mistaken and the two are related? A clarification either way would be appreciated.

    We don't remember days only moments...

    I'm Irish, I'm stubborn. This is going to get done. There is a right and wrong. I'm in the right.

    But to me, recalling the Mayor is only one step of many that need to be taken to turn Toledo around. I'm only doing one thing at a time.

    Thanks for the luck.

    Do you think Toledo was some panacea of success under the city manager government? It's not as if this hasn't been tried before. You have this theory that spreading control of city gov't as thin and wide as possible is a good thing. In practice, that's a recipe for gridlock.

    Here's a thought:

    Use your gumption, ambition and talents to offer SOLUTIONS TO PROBLEMS. If we booted Carty today and changed the city charter again to reinstate a city manager, do you think things would miraculously get better? Do you think that some guy with great ideas will just emerge from obscurity to save the city like a knight in shining armor?

    I suppose my question is simple: Recall Carty, Check. Change charter, Check. ...... Now what?

    Being as young as you are (not a knock, i'm not a lot older), you'll get this reference from south park:

    1. Oust a good Mayor
    2. Change the city charter
    3. ???
    4. Profit!

    You give me an answer for "3" and I'd seriously consider your charter change proposal. I think it's idiocy to think that ousting carty will make a modicum of difference, and personally he's done a lot of good for Toledo so I, like the majority of my fellow Toledoans, support him. But I don't have a particular affinity one way or the other for what kind of mayor/manager we have, so yes, you could "convert" me. But so far all I've heard is invective and punditry and a dearth of IDEAS.

    The last time I heard someone argue for the council-manager type of government I heard them rave all about how Austin is one of the most thriving cities, yadda yadda yadda. I asked them how, exactly, they connected Austins success with their form of government (as opposed to their leaders themselves) and they couldn't give me a SINGLE answer.

    As I said before, Good luck bro.

    1. The magazine you say "nobody has ever heard of" is owned by the Financial Times PLC. It's not exactly The Toledo City Paper.

    2. The CITY hired a mystery shopper to mystery shop. Stunning, isn't it?

    3. Carty went to bat for businesses downtown. I'm a downtown resident. I spend as much of my money downtown as possible to support my neighborhood. For my money, it's the best place in the city for a young professional w/o children to live. Bar none. And I've seen first hand the economic impact that these conventions have on downtown businesses. It's HUGE. They spend LOADS of money. I've given countless people directions to the closest mall/walmart/meijer/kroger/dining. If the Seagate Hotel is able to rest on it's pitiful laurels and bring down the rep of the Seagate Centre, we'll lose at least SOME of that business. And that will hit downtown businesses HARD. There are dozens of restaurants and bars down there. Many are the best in the city in their niche. The best restaurants, the best bars and nightclubs, etc. Carty went to bat for these businesses by clearly and publicly explaining that the hotel has no connection to the convention center. Cheers for that!

    4. We _COULD_ be doing much better. I agree. But show me a leader with such ideas. Hell, SHOW ME IDEAS! Say "We must recall carty because ______________ has a plan to do _________________ which will make toledo better." Your current schtick is "Recall carty because he did this __________, ______, _______, and ________." Yawn! That means nothing to me! Recalling Carty in and of itself does this city no good. It would just further fracture our political ecosystem.

    5. The city didn't TAKE OVER ANYTHING. Where do you get this idea? The city is merely COMPETING with private enterprise. For those of you who believe in the magic of the marketplace, isn't that a good thing?

    Get a grip.

    It's not going to happen.

    I appauld activism. I wish everyone was an activist.

    But this is not going to happen.

    Gird yourself for failure, bro. The ship of state isn't so easily derailed.

    ...I didn't say you were wrong, just pointing out the 'contradiction' in your methodology and criticism of levels of maturity... was the priority. There are a lot of things NEEDED in this city - is a private bathroom for the mayor really at the top of the list for $10,000?

    That being said, I don't think the recall is a productive effort. I also think that a significant number of Toledoans will say "better the devil we know (Carty) than the one we don't (whoever ends up being president of council and becomes mayor if this effort is successful)."

    I mean, it is fruitless to point out the obvious, but when a poster's agenda is to "triple speak", you'll find the "Delusional Shane and the Spineless McCaskey Show" becomming boring and trite.

    I mean, it's one thing to voice your concern and opinion, but to have some whacked out turd burgular demean your intent and belittle just for self-enjoyment, it's the sign that there are better things to do than feed the idiot.

    Besides, his envy is overwhelming and is crowding my garlic.

    It is the abundance of closed and vacant buildings and boarded up and vacant homes with absentee land owners that fail to maintain their property.

    New England states had a head state on effective planning and management and the Mayor here has still made statements that could be taken as being not business friendly.

    He is to manage the city and improve not tell which business may or may not come to town, unless of course there is a prohibition on the books.

    Why don't you name names, Pete? Who?

    After you tell us all who has been "driven out by the paper," then you can tell us all how the paper accomplished this feat.

    I know that Mr. Kest had to deal with prosecutors, not the newspaper. Who else, ya got?

    So because a decent leader hasn't made his way into the limelight of Toledo politics, we should just let Carty be and put up with what he is putting this city through? We should not hold him responsible for the way he solved the budget problems by taking over 40% of local business and lobbing an extra tax that will never go away? We should just put up with his disregard for the 1st amendment, which he called civil disobedience? We should put up with the 10,000 dollar showers, the bike paths, the flowers, the embarrassment of our downtown hotels? Toledo's Mayor made it on USA We really are going to let Carty drag Toledo to the bottom? I'm not. 2 1/2 more years is too much time for Mayor Finkbeiner.

    .....are not connected. Our committee is pro-COBRA, but we have no association.

    You're "in the right?"

    How nice of you to think so.

    Here's a suggestion, though. You probably already realize this, but most people are pretty confident that they, too, are "in the right." Merely saying "Support my idea, I'm RIGHT!" doesn't exactly have the, ehh, je ne sais quoi of a populist movement.

    .. Especially considering that Carty was elected-by and is still supported-by a healthy majority of Toledoans. Saying "This will get done" is, well, nevermind.... it'll be a learning experience for you, I suppose. I support your activism. If everyone was as active as you, this country would be a better place. .... Unless, of course, they all had ideas as.. well.. bad.. as yours. ... But I have to assume that any activism is better for democracy than no activism, so cheers!

    Thanks again for the luck...

    Toledo has real potential. This city should be booming. But we aren't. Things need to be changed. A lot needs to be changed. I'm not saying recall Carty, change form of government and everything will be sunshine and roses. More need to be done, but I'm focusing on one goal - the recall. There are plenty of principled reasons to recall this Mayor. I'm well aware that not everyone is for recalling the Mayor, but I believe there are at least 20,000 Toledoans that are. When we get this on the ballot, we'll let the voters decide. I fully expect there to be at least 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 more people out there like you, but we will see how this turns out. (please note sarcasm in last sentence)

    Ever since this guy, "kid", whoever he is, began posting here, people have played the "maturity" card with him. On all kinds of posts.
    Yes, he has attitude, as does some others who post here and on TT. She called him a liar, or at least someone not telling the truth (same thing, right?). Actually, on other posts, I do believe she's called him a "troll."
    She was wrong, he threw it back in her face. She can deal with it.

    Not exactly.

    The mystery shoppers reported on more than just the hotel experience.

    They reported on issues that are realm of the city inspectors that we pay for and the city inspectors then validated what the shoppers reported.

    So, really, why to me, did the inspectors not just inspect when the inspectors are part of a city agency dedicated to that very job instead of spending money on mystery shoppers.

    Now paul, we know that' not exactly true. Mr Kest had quite a lot to say in his defense that was never published - or rather, never published by the blade.

    It was published on line, but you saw to it that his site was destroyed. You say you acted alone, paul. I for one dont believe you, but that's not the point. Why is it that the blade wouldnt print kest's side of things?

    ...also deserves some of the blame for these things - it was council that approved the ambulance and towing company issues. It was council that passed the garbage tax. It's council that approves the CIP budget which calls for bike paths...

    I've had my disagreements with Carty and with Council - but Carty is not solely to blame for all the items you mention.

    The mayor wrong was to:

    Ignore the 1st amendment and call in it civil disboedience
    Spend 10,000 on a shower
    Spend 130,000 on decorative lights
    Bike paths
    Erie Street Market
    Costco Mess at Westgate
    Take over of private business
    Garbage tax that's not really a "tax"

    I could continue......

    I agree that some of the expenditures as well as the tax and ambulance take over is partially Council's fault, but the mayor still pushed it.

    Holding this man accountable is the right thing and principled thing to do.

    I'm still waiting for the punchline...

    Like I said, unless you can talk about IDEAS you're just a moral crusader.

    - he did. Actually, I thought he made a very good point...but his good point was diminished when, stooping to the same level, he started in about her maturity while exhibiting a lack of his own in the way he criticized. Note - I'm talking about this particular post - not his overall participation.

    If you're going to go around criticizing people's maturity level, then act mature yourself...otherwise...

    There's a difference between "self-assured" and "arrogance" and your "lil buddy" is arrogant. There were other more mature avenues Shane could have addressed Kate's "allegations", but Shane chose the course he is familiar and comfortable with.

    As much as I appreciate opposing views, only the moron can take it to Shane's level.

    There's also the difference between "weak-minded lemming" and "fan of Shane", but not a lot.

    (Clarification: This post is directed to McCaskey's post above, edited after placement)

    Here's what the Naple's Daily News had in their November story.

    To avoid federal charges, Kest agreed to repay the full amount and resign from office, according to auditor's reports.

    As far as Kest was concerned, the matter was a misunderstanding, and was laid to rest then and there.

    "The only reason I agreed to this deal is they said there would be no jail time, no convictions, no charges. It never happened," he said. "I can't believe the Toledo Blade followed me three years later down to Florida."

    Billy said: Why is it that the blade wouldnt print kest's side of things?

    What was it that The Blade did not print?

    Billy, let us in on "Kest's side of things."

    It was published on line, but you saw to it that his site was destroyed.

    The reason "his site" - your words, not mine - went down was due to the fact that his (or Dr. Phil's) web hosting firm agreed that the site contained defamatory and libelous information. And as all of us know, defamation and libel are NOT protected speech under the 1st Amendment. Otherwise, the site owner could have easily kept control of "his site."

    This is a joke, isn't it?

    If so, did I miss the punchline?

    Anyone can name a laundry list of grievances with ANY government executive. Governing is the art of choosing. Not all choices will be ones you agree with.

    You think the mayor would be better able to serve Toledo by taking 2 hours a day to drive to a gym, exercise, shower and drive back downtown? You think, dollar for dollar we don't get more than $10k in value for the gym he built? It's not as if he's ripping the f'in thing from the wall and taking it with him. You do realize it'll be there for the next guy, right?

    You think that the way a city looks (lighting, paths, etc) isn't important in attracting people, which you seem to think is important?

    You think that the mayor pushing a company to pay Toledo citizens more money is a bad thing? It's not as if Costco pulled-out, and it's merely speculation on your part that Carty wouldn't have acquiesced if they had indeed planned to cancel the project.

    You think that a failed business venture downtown is some how a monumental failure of leadership for which a man should be "held accountable?" Here's a question: Under your beloved City Manager form of government, a VERY expensive, VERY high-profile project to create a retail/entertainment center downtown FLOPPED. MISERABLY. In your theory, aren't such things supposed to be "fixed" by a council/mgr gov't?

    You think that charging people the whole of $2 a month is some egregious violation of our sensibilities? Yes, labeling it a "garbage tax" may be a bit disingenuous. But like it or not, we needed to balance the budget. If we never installed a single decorative light, that garbage tax could've been, what, one cent cheaper per citizen per month? The VAST MAJORITY of our budget goes to safety and refuse. We had a deficit. We have to pay it. $2 a month is not turning away citizens or businesses. You can mark my words. Nobody will ever say "I like toledo, but I just can't swallow some $30 a year garbage fee. That's OUTRAGEOUS!"

    ..... Like i said, Thomas. Anybody can bitch. I can compile a similar list for Jack Ford and for McHugh, for that matter.

    ...... You want to do something? Offer _IDEAS_, friend, IDEAS. Not bitching.

    "If you look at who is vehemently against this idea it is a startling recommendation for it. ... Tell me more Thomas. I'm interested." - KateB

    THAT'S immaturity.

    Calling her out for (incorrectly) labeling me a liar, yes, i agree, is a bit childish, too.

    But supporting a plan to flip city gov't on its head just to spite people she doesn't agree with?

    please......... no comparison.

    Sometimes its hard to hear the voice reflection when reading a post thus not understanding if the intent was humor, a response, or a thought. If your unsure, try to figure it, before switching to guns!

    Other times it's pure swawmp bubbles with very stubborn, emotional posters. That's life.

    Just like others, I think Shane can put some heat on his fast pitch and can add flavor to the debates. Either prove his points wrong, Add to them, or move on.

    Samething to ShaneH - If you're right, work the next batter. If not, take the hit.

    We need more hits and fast balls in this community we play in and less junior varsity.

    Batter up!

    There's also the difference between "weak-minded lemming" and "fan of Shane", but not a lot.

    Of course, I could substitute "Katie" for "Shane" and all the above would apply to you.

    Other than a little flippant reaction to something you & Shane got into about a dozens posts ago, I'm not sure why you react here by calling me "stupid."

    By the way, I still hope you locate and develop a relationship with your daughter, something I've expressed to you before but I see now carries zero weight.

    I'm arrogant and you're bitter. Who cares?

    At least I've got a little self awareness.

    Besides, it's ok for Kate to make "allegations" in public, but I'm supposed to "address" them in Private? Why? Because I owe her the courtesy?


    Thanks for marginalizing yourself, Brian. It's pretty hard to take someone seriously after they write a post like yours.

    Maybe you should work on that self-awareness? I'd suggest you just work on whatever's made you such a bitter asshole, but I think we both know that's too much to hope for.

    Paul, we've gone over this before, but here we go again:

    Kest was accused of staying in lavish hotels while attending conferences for Toledo. Kest says he was given a list of allowed hotels, and he chose the ones closest to the conference. That's exactly the way my business finances my travel, and kest's contention seems logical, but the blade gave that no print.

    Kest was accused of using his car for personal business. Kest said that everyone else with a city car does so to. Ive run into local politico's at social occasions - ya think their cars belonged to the city? I do.

    Kest was chastized for teaching a class while taking classes. He said that by teaching a couple classes, it substantially cut the amount of money the city was charged for his education - again, a common practice at universities.

    The city paying for his education? My company has paid for education for me as well. Kest also said that one of his theses were a model of a toledo situation, and his study was able to be applied locally, and saved the city $300,000...

    Kest was accused of putting the cost of his books in the office supplies fund. Kest said that's right where Isenberg told him to put it. But Sandy was in the good graces at the time - was that followed up on?

    Did he do some things wrong? Sure - hell, wasnt he a Toledo democrat? Culture of Corruption and all...

    Did the Blade report his side of the story? No Paul, they didnt.

    Did they reply to his open letter to the Blade, print it, or do anything to acknowledge it? Or did JRB just send his lapdog to shut down his site?

    Sit scruffy!!

    The only reason Dr. Phil's web hosting site agreed to take down the site was because they did not want to get involved in a lawsuit with you, i.e., the Blade, and they found it easier to cave in when confronted with a legion of lawyers. Defamation and libel were never proven or anything else was even suggested. You, Mr. Paul Hem, lost control of the web site domain in the end. That in itself says something about your allegations. Please don't go spreading rumors that are unsubstantiated. might want to get the cost of the garbage tax correct when making such points...

    And I expect that there will be a lot of people who feel like you do when it comes to this effort.

    /s crickets

    "taking the piss out of" and being outright ignorant.

    And until I see community improvement with Shane's name on it and not on these stupid ass posts with his "triple speak" and aggressive stances, I'll reconsider my comments.

    Until then, I'll enjoy reading his immaturity.

    And McCaskey, there's comming to one's defense and being a roll of Charmin. Guess which label I placed on you.

    of reality, as convoluted and delusional as it is, especially based on your postings, your comments lack merit and credibility.

    Why it truly is amazing the mindset one harbors to presume I'm a bitter asshole. Envy is such a bitter pill....

    "You think that the mayor pushing a company to pay Toledo citizens more money is a bad thing? It's not as if Costco pulled-out, and it's merely speculation on your part that Carty wouldn't have acquiesced if they had indeed planned to cancel the project."

    Let us try and look at it from this way; the Mayor of any city is there to lead and manage.

    A company, one that is not a polluter, a good corporate citizen, one that pays good wages and benefits, has a good bottom line, will contribute to the community through sales taxes and city income taxes, speaks with a private party as the business is interested in a parcel that is for sale.

    A good and thoughtful mayor does what for a community that is need of these types of businesses?

    Publicly stand in the way of the business or work with the company and explain his thoughts in a business like manner?

    First, where did you get the information that you just wrote regarding Mr. Kest's side of things? I know. The Blade published the above and the broadcast stations also gave Mr. Kest his chance to respond. AS a matter of fact, I clearly recall that Mr. Kest was on channel 11 vs. The Blade's Managing Editor. Mr. Kest's response : "Read, I don't have anything to do with the site, but I read it often."

    Also\, Billy you mentioned that the site was his. Are you saying that Mr. Kest is lying about the ownership of If so, then does lying about make the rest of his story easier to believe?

    The facts are clear.

    Kest cut a deal with the Feds. He was NOT run out of town by a newspaper.

    Are you saying that Ms. Isenberg was in "good graces" with federal prosecutors, and Mr. Kest was not? The Blade reported on Ms. Isenberg's roof issue, didn't it? As a matter of fact, one of the former local radio station personalities had her on the air and tried to spin the fact that The Blade broke that story as proof the newspaper was after her.

    Of course The Blade was after Tom Noe, too. Oh, wait! That's right! The conspiracy theory on that is that the newspaper held the story so Bush could be elected. LOL

    BTW, Billy, I own a bridge, right here in Toledo, named after a famous civil rights leader that I'll sell ya for fifty bucks.


    Love ya bro!

    I never had to threaten. All I did was ask them if they allowed their FREE web hosting plan to be used for purposes that I considered to be defamatory and libelous.

    It is a well known fact that the site is/was registered by someone else. I saw a copy of the registration that said Kest owned it posted on So, what's your point?


    "And until I see community improvement with Shane's name on it and not on these stupid ass posts with his "triple speak" and aggressive stances, I'll reconsider my comments."

    Yeah, I read it three times, and I'm pretty certain that this makes no sense at all.

    "Until then, I'll enjoy reading his immaturity."

    Be careful, Maggie's going to come give you a lecture about calling someone immature while displaying a startling amount of immaturity yourself. Trust me, she's got it down cold.

    And your attack of McCaskey made my day. It shows that you've pretty-much lost all reason and went straight off the deep end.

    Tell me more about my "aggressive stances."


    Hoping you'll reach self awareness, I suppose, was too much to ask for. Here's to hoping you find ANY AWARENESS AT ALL.

    Look at these posts, Brian. You weren't even involed in this thread. You came in a day later to tear up McCaskey who wrote nothing of offense to anybody.

    Bitter? Check.
    Asshole? Check.

    Yep, I got it right.

    You don't give half a shit about someone's "triple speak" and "aggressive stances", unless that person happens to diagreee with YOUR viewpoint on a topic.

    The fact of the matter is, if Shane (or anyone else) agreed with your opinion on a topic, any topic, his aggressive tone and 'doesn't suffer fools gladly' attitude would be something you'd welcome...WITH OPEN ARMS.

    Keep on pissin' in the wind while we all wait for your gal Katie to apologize, as I do believe she said she would, if Shane proved to be truthful about editing his old posts.

    So why did you lose control of the domain name, anyway? This was after it was registered in your name and as your web site?

    ...was brought up in this back and forth between all the

    I'm reminded of a couple of things here and must agree with brassmonkey on most of it.

    One thought - it doesn't do any good to wrestle with a pig - all you get is dirty and the pig enjoys it.

    Second thought is the following exchange:
    "you're a poopy head," he said.
    "Am not - and what a mature thought, especially coming from someone who's a cootie face!" she said.
    "fight-fight-fight" the crowd roared, as they lined up to take sides and throw insults of their own...


    It's how you're perceived, senior.

    I don't mind your senseless attacks against me, Shane. Your outright rudeness speaks volumes. So you perceive me a "bitter asshole". As I have said before, gauging your mentality, you lack credibility when labelling people, so your opine means less than squat.

    Personally, as much as I enjoy reading your attacks, I just cannot fathom someone of your caliber bitching and moaning with your "devil's advocate" mentality without seeing the progress you're making within the community, other than these entertaining posts you create. And as far as I can see, there is none from your corner.

    So as you continue to bring your drama to these pages, keep this in mind, you're in a club with one other member. The only difference you're making in the community is alienating ideas from people that want to participate, but would rather stay on the sidelines as to not provoke your senseless drama.

    And as far as I'm concerned, I enjoy my track record of bringing the best out of idiots, Shaney. Makes me proud to watch you dance, only because you think I care. Otherwise, you'd have just ignored me. (giggle)

    1) I requested transfer of the domain name to me.
    2) Someone who HAD control acted on it.
    3) I just watched the idiots squirm with amusement.
    4) After the entertainment was over, I called the web hosting firm.

    Anyway, Pete, I am Mr. Paul Hem. And you are? Oh that's right an anonymous person playing with their computer, like Brian Wilson and Michael Miller say.

    LOL! C'mon. I know who you are.

    And you are no one to accuse me of making "unsubstantiated claims!"

    I can understand Pig Wrast'lin in Swamp Bubbles, but "poopy head" and "cootie face"?! lol

    What are you talking about?

    Try that again without dropping in the $0.25 words. I know you're just trying to sound smart, but cut the charade. You're not fooling anybody.

    I lost you shortly after your "outright rudeness" comment so I'll just address that and then wait for you to come back and clarify this drivel.

    It's "outright rudeness" for me to (aptly) call you a bitter asshole. OK, I'll accept that. But tell me: What is it when you're the one dishing out insults and labels and calling names? Without trying to sounds too juvenile, you started it. Nobody here was talking to you. You dropped in on a 2 day old thread with attacks.

    As for everything after that sentence, well, its anyones guess what you mean. You're clearly a product of the pseudo-academic cookie cutter. Sorry, I don't speak Collegedropoutese.

    What are you? A TOTAL asshole? Nobody except you would divulge his last name on the internet. You must think every one else is as stupid as you.

    You are your master's lapdog. Ruff, ruff! Lick, lick!

    I met Dr. Phil twice and he was a man with a mission... he didn't like the Blade or JRB. I guess he probably had an ax to grind. But you'd understand that, wouldn't you?

    You're just as big a joke out in reality as you portray yourself here, and I'm cool with that.

    And as usual, I enjoy your ignorance.

    are because they divulge their last names?

    I know! You're just a twit full of hot air, name-calling behind anonymity.

    Get some, wimp.

    Yours truly,

    Paul Hem

    are public figures and/or respected private citizens. You are neither. You are an embarrassment to your profession.

    "Nobody except you would divulge his last name on the internet. You must think every one else is as stupid as you."

    Well, no, but you must.

    Since you think it is so smart to believe that you're anonymous, then how do we know that you're not just a little kid playing with mommy's computer?

    Therefore, your defamatory comments mean nothing.

    However, I reserve the right to use all legal means to hold you accountable, if your defamation causes me any material damage, or if I decide otherwise to pursue the matter.


    Paul Hem

    What "defamatory comments", asshole?

    Yours in Christ,


    Perhaps more should have signed this. Don't blame me, I did sign it !

    Comment viewing options

    Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.